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So now I am curious - I just spent time going through the Uppercase Living catty. Very nice - beautiful words and phrases, not so beautiful clip art images at the end.
I know that in time SU will have more images. UCL seems to be mostly just about words and phrases. Personally, I am liking the images (that match the stamp sets!!!) a little more.
It doesn't surprise me that SU headed down this path - the past catties had sections devoted to home decor and Shelli has done home decor presentations at the last 2 conventions I attended. I do feel bad for the ladies who currently represent both companies and now have to choose one or the other.
Overall, I think it's a great expansion into a hot market and SU is smart to capitalize on what they can while it's popular. It will likely appeal to a niche of customers who otherwise wouldn't know SU or who don't care for hand-made crafts like cards or scrapbooks.
More images are due this year (according to the announcement from Shelli) and I am anxious to see what else is on the way!
Some times it takes awhile, though. Luckily, nothing on this thread has been personal attacks, but I've been on the receiving end of personal attacks on demo threads. The mods do the best they can, but it took some PM's from other SCSers to mods to make them aware of one thread in particular where the bashing went from talking about the product/issue to bashing me personally. Thank goodness SCS is generally an okay/non-personal bashing place to be (but I stay out of Current Events so can't vouch for that forum!) but with the tons of new threads that are started everyday, I know I'd hate to be a mod trying to keep up with everything to nip-in-the-bud of personal attacks.
You're definitely right- it can happen further into the thread, especially when folks don't read through the whole thing & just throw in comments. Hopefully this thread can stay away from the personal attacks!
There are ways to elequently tell somebody that they should think long and hard about any second company they might want to become involved with before investing their money and signing on the dotted line if they are already signed with SU. They could have stated that SU is currently looking into numerous avenues and signing up with any other direct sales company could become a conflict of interest. They wouldn't have to say, "no, you better not sign up but keep our answer quiet." If after being told that signing up with any other company regardless of the product type could become a conflict and the demonstrator still chose to sign up, then that's the risk she took. But to be told that "it's not even on our radar" was not a good way to do it.
I think it's fairly naive to think that anyone in a company, especially a high up executive, would breach their confidentiality obligations and reveal what products are in a developmental stage to a non-employee, whether directly or indirectly. And that goes double for a non-employee demonstrator who is obviously asking because she intends to split her loyalty, energy and time between two direct sales businesses. And perhaps triple when it's obvious that the company the non-employee demontrator intends to become a rep for is a direct sales company where some dual demonstrators have already violated their agreement with Stampin' Up! by recruiting form their SU downlines for that other company.
I also think in a large company every executive is not always aware what products are in development, precisely because of the confidentiality issue. So perhape the person who this demo spoke to just didn't know. And before people say that everyone at SU must know everything, keep in mind that Shelli Gardner did not know about the decision last year to discontinue carrying 12x12 card stock in all of the 48 exclusive colors until she started receiving complaints from demonstrators about this decision. Not everyone in a company as large as SU knows about every business decision, nor should they. And even if they do know about it they are not obligated to share those decisions with the demosntrators before the official release date, nor should they.
If the number of people that are demos for UL are small, why not just grandfather them in at this point and not allow anyone else to sign up after this announcement? I really feel for all of you that are now faced with having to give up half an income. The way the economy is today it must be very nerve wrecking to even think about it. Change is always really hard, but it is even worse when it is impacting your finances. Best of luck to all of you...
If the number of people that are demos for UL are small, why not just grandfather them in at this point and not allow anyone else to sign up after this announcement? I really feel for all of you that are now faced with having to give up half an income. The way the economy is today it must be very nerve wrecking to even think about it. Change is always really hard, but it is even worse when it is impacting your finances. Best of luck to all of you...
I believe UL has the same type of non-competitive agreement and is asking the "double demos" to choose. It's not just an SU! issue.
I noticed some posts/comments about bashing/flaming/etc.
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UCL is giving their demos until July 1 to decide which company they will demo for- so this is not just a SU issue- both companies have the same clause in their contracts.
I personnally love that SU is expanding its product line- this will expand my customer base and that is a good thing.
I am sorry that people have to make a choice- I had to do the same thing many years ago between SU and CM - I choose SU and haven't ever regretted it!
Good luck-
Diane
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddstamps
It was posted by a UCL demonstrator- on another list I am on.
Diane
This was posted earlier in the thread. So from what we are hearing, UCL is also telling dual demos they need to make a choice, not just SU!.
So now I am curious - I just spent time going through the Uppercase Living catty. Very nice - beautiful words and phrases, not so beautiful clip art images at the end.
There have been a few posts about people looking over this catty, but when I go to the Uppercase Living website I can't see a catalog. The page says, "Contact your Demonstrator to purchase a hardcopy Idea Catalog or to find out how you can view the Idea Catalog online." Could one of the UL demos on here tell me how I can view these designs? I'd be interested to see more of them. Thanks!
There have been a few posts about people looking over this catty, but when I go to the Uppercase Living website I can't see a catalog. The page says, "Contact your Demonstrator to purchase a hardcopy Idea Catalog or to find out how you can view the Idea Catalog online." Could one of the UL demos on here tell me how I can view these designs? I'd be interested to see more of them. Thanks!
Go through the Find a Demo process - someone will either email or call you with a demo code and token to use to access the online catty. Lots of hoops to jump through just to see product - not liking that at all!!! For an addition almost $5, they will mail you a hard copy too.
But I don't want to jump through hoops! ;) I wish there was a way to see the catalog without putting my contact info out there. I really don't think I would buy anything, so I don't want to get a demo's hopes up. However, I'd also worry that I would see about a dozen things I "need" haha.
Just to clear things up, this is an email response from UCL regarding demoing for both SU and UCL. I just want to be sure everyone knows the truth about that.
"Thank you for your e-mail. We are happy to address this question for you. Although Stampin� Up! now offers a supplemental line of decorative expressions, we do not consider this competition with our core products and therefore don�t feel that being an independent salesperson for both companies is a conflict. Over the past six months, we have been exploring our philosophy on dual demonstrating and have been working on a more open policy that allows you freedom to represent other companies when core product lines are different. (A new Demonstrator Agreement reflecting this position will be implemented very soon.) Whenever possible, we are happy to accommodate and welcome all who would like to join our Uppercase Living community."
So Kelly have you made your choice yet? Which is more profitable for you? Which do you love more? I am sorry that you have to choose. I don't know what I would pick in that situation. I am hobby demo so I guess I would go with the one I like doing more.
As someone who has seen Kelly at work in both mediums, I can say that it will be a loss to whichever company she decides to leave behind. She's terrific in both arenas!
I still say it isn't right to MAKE you decide! You were with both before SU! decided to try this endeavor. AND if it flops (which it very well could) and you decided to drop UCL, then you lost all of those customers for nothing. It just doesn't seem right to me. I think that SU! should just grandfather in the demos who are currently with both, but then again, they can run their business however they want.
I still say it isn't right to MAKE you decide! You were with both before SU! decided to try this endeavor. AND if it flops (which it very well could) and you decided to drop UCL, then you lost all of those customers for nothing. It just doesn't seem right to me. I think that SU! should just grandfather in the demos who are currently with both, but then again, they can run their business however they want.
Grandfathering is great for the demos who have already split their loyalties between SU and another company, but it's totally unfair to the demos who haven't. Why should a demo down the street who is currently a UL demo be able to sell competitive products while another demo on the same block who focused all of her energies on SU cannot? That's totally rewarding the demonstrator who split her focus. It's not like the UL demo (talking in generalities here, not about anyone specifically) signed up for another company to help SU, so why is it exactly that SU should bend over backwards and make exceptions to the rules to help her? What kind of a message would that send to the rest of the demos? Rules anre rules and everyone should be treated equally.
The non-compete clause was always in the SU agreement (and, until a couple of days ago, in the UL agreement as well -- kind of convenient timing on UL's part for the change -- they announce that they're not going to make demos choose, but only after SU has said that it would -- hmmm.) Anyone who signs up to be a demo for another company knows that somewhere down the road they may have to give one of the companies up if there is a product expansion that makes the two companies competitors. It's a risk that anyone who signs up for two direct sales companies assumes and should have factored into their decison.
The other thing people don't understand about this is that Avon people have scrapbooking in their catalogs too. So, why would you just make UCL people decide and not any other demos with any other DS business that have similar products?
I don't know anything about Avon or their scrapbook line, but if in fact they have a scrapbookig line in the direct sales portion of their business, why is there such a certainty that SU is not requiring dual Avon/SU demos to make the choice as well? I have not heard about any exception being made for Avon demos.
The other thing people don't understand about this is that Avon people have scrapbooking in their catalogs too. So, why would you just make UCL people decide and not any other demos with any other DS business that have similar products?
It is in the contract that the demonstrator signed when they joined SU as well as in the demostrator manual, that they are not allowed to sell for companies that have competing products. There is not a list of these companies. I am sure that SU figured a demonstrator would know when a company has a competing product. So please do not look at SU as if they are being the bad guys here. Having to choose should NOT be a surprise to any SU demonstrator.
Copied from SU demo manual:
Because the following activities could endanger the success of
home workshops, you are prohibited from participating in them:
■ You may not represent or assist any person or entity that
sells products that are the same as or similar to Stampin�
Up! products.
■ You may not own or hold part ownership in a business
that sells products that are the same as or similar to
Stampin� Up! products. Ownership includes holding
more than five percent of the stock of a public company,
holding any stock of a privately held company, or
holding the position of a company officer.
■ You may not represent a direct-selling or multilevel
marketing company that sells products that are the same
as or similar to Stampin� Up! products.
■ You may not sell, promote, or demonstrate products
other than those offered by Stampin� Up! while
participating in home workshops or Stampin� Up!
events, or at any other meeting with existing or potential
demonstrators or customers.
These exclusions also apply to your spouse, regardless of whether
or not he is a supporting demonstrator. They also apply to any
product that Stampin� Up! decides to sell in the future.
We understand that some demonstrators are employed by
competitive retailers. There is no prohibition against working
for a competitive retailer as long as you do not participate in
the activities listed above.
It is in the contract that the demonstrator signed when they joined SU as well as in the demostrator manual, that they are not allowed to sell for companies that have competing products. There is not a list of these companies. I am sure that SU figured a demonstrator would know when a company has a competing product. So please do not look at SU as if they are being the bad guys here. Having to choose should NOT be a surprise to any SU demonstrator.
It is not about the policy, it is about the enforcement and the two-week timeframe for their long-time demos who have spent thousands and thousands of $s, blood, sweat and tears and having to make life altering decisions based on a product they do not specialize in and based on a three-page brochure of pre-determined expressions that only come in two colors! That is not ample information to make an informed decision.
Well...there was much forwarning from SU about this issue. They have said and posted that things were in the works about new products being added to SU's line. They made it quite clear that some demos will have to choose between SU and other companies that, though at the time did not have a competing, will in the future. This is also written in the demo manual, which I copied into my last post.
As far as enforcement, what is SU supposed to do, send out SU spies?? Obviously they have to rely on a demonstrators honesty. Sadly, in todays world, honesty is not a very reliable thing.
Given the contract they signed, the SU demo manual and the warnings SU sent out the past few months, I do believe that everyone has had ample time to decide. The fact that phase one of the new product release is only 4 pages, does not mean anything. If they are selling a similar product, they already know that this product sells well. The only difference is that SU's line is made up of SU images. If, SU images in stamps sell well, and the other companies product sells well, why would one think this new line is not going to be popular? Also, SU made it quite clear that more images will be release very soon, and will continue to be released through out the next year. This line, unlike the product & idea catalog, will not be limited to bi-annual releases/changes.
It really seems to me that people are up in arms without having all the facts.
Are you an UCL and SU demo? Then you have NO idea what it means to those of us going through this. AND, just so you know, people phoned Stampin' Up! and asked them if it would be a conflict and the answer was NO. I love especially how this is turning demo on demo, it is just so disheartening. I'm getting to the point that I don't want to be in the direct sales world at all, it's getting mean and ugly. We have all been united and this is splitting us all apart. I have made too many friends, friends who are sympathetic and caring who are also SU demos. I'm not going to say another word here because I've said all I need to say. Best of luck to all of you. Peace out.
Actually, I am an SU demo, and from my perspective, everyone is just freaking out with out much cause. If you took anything I have said as being mean, I please accept my apologies. My desire was to simply state facts that non-demos may not be aware of, which I, of course, understand that demos should already know. I am simply pointing out that SU has done their best to prepare and forewarn everyone who is being affected by this. I am sorry if you think that I am in anyway splitting demos. Not in the least!!! I believe all the SU demos should understand SU�s predicament. Those who are not demos may only know what they have heard from others, since they do not have access to all the warnings SU has been sending out. They also have a right to know ALL the information to see the complete picture. I would hate for some good and caring non-demos to have unpleasent feelings toward a company that has done their best to make this a smooth trasition into a new market. It is hard for me to believe that stating facts would be thought of as being mean. :confused:
Based on the SU policy posted I'd say there's a real grey are - it says you can't sell items the same or similar to SU's - similar can mean a lot of things - based on the initial vinyl offering from SU I wouldn't say it's similar enough for them to make people choose at this point - and therein lies the rub - the def'n SU gives requires interpretation and I can see the next posted interpretting it as UL being very similar now to SU, but that's a matter of opinion - so SU will need to clarify this - and if I were a demo in conflict I would contact SU and get a specific ruling on my situation (being sure to carefully and respectfully explain my issue).
Based on the SU policy posted I'd say there's a real grey are - it says you can't sell items the same or similar to SU's - similar can mean a lot of things - based on the initial vinyl offering from SU I wouldn't say it's similar enough for them to make people choose at this point - and therein lies the rub - the def'n SU gives requires interpretation and I can see the next posted interpretting it as UL being very similar now to SU, but that's a matter of opinion - so SU will need to clarify this - and if I were a demo in conflict I would contact SU and get a specific ruling on my situation (being sure to carefully and respectfully explain my issue).
SU has been very clear on this issue and addressed UL specifically, so at this point there is no gray area.
The other thing people don't understand about this is that Avon people have scrapbooking in their catalogs too. So, why would you just make UCL people decide and not any other demos with any other DS business that have similar products?
I had no idea Avon has scrapbooking stuff. That just seems a bit odd to me. Guess it's like SU producing the resin figures to match stamp sets which I understand they tried a number of years back. Just weird!
__________________ Shan
-Never get so busy making a living, that you forget to make a life-
Entertaining thread. Has anyone done any research around the legal enforceability of non-compete agreements? From what I understand non competes are income limiting mechanisms that serve no one other than the business trying to force such limitations.
I wonder how rigid the courts are in upholding non-compete agreements in favor of the business. I can't imagine that (in this case) a well established business such as SU! could reasonably argue that their entire business is at serious risk of going out of business because of a handful of small competitors?
__________________ �:*�*:�My next house won't have a kitchen. Just a bunch of vending machines and garbage cans.�:*�*:�
I just looked at Avons website. They have a TON of stuff. I know they used to offer a few pieces of jewelry, but I guess it's been a while since I looked at any Avon literature. It could be up against the obvious (Mary Kay, Silpada, etc.) but also PartyLite, Southern Living at Home, Longaberger, Pampered Chef, Tupperware. I didn't see any food, but I only looked briefly. Wow! I'm just flabbergasted by the range of items they carry. I had no idea.
__________________ Shan
-Never get so busy making a living, that you forget to make a life-
Stampin' Up! licenses demo's to sell their stuff, if they don't want to license you they don't have to and they can revoke that license if they want. We are independent contractors, no employees.
I had no idea Avon has scrapbooking stuff. That just seems a bit odd to me. Guess it's like SU producing the resin figures to match stamp sets which I understand they tried a number of years back. Just weird!
Resin figurines? really? is there an "Ewww" smiley somewhere??
(thinking Children of the Corn on my mantle... gaaah!)
I had no idea Avon has scrapbooking stuff. That just seems a bit odd to me. Guess it's like SU producing the resin figures to match stamp sets which I understand they tried a number of years back. Just weird!
Avon has scrapbooking? Where?
__________________ I'm Misti, and I've approved this message! MYGALLERY "Brace for Impact"-Capt. Sully "Brace for Impact"--Congress to America Proud mom of 2 soldiers-
Entertaining thread. Has anyone done any research around the legal enforceability of non-compete agreements? From what I understand non competes are income limiting mechanisms that serve no one other than the business trying to force such limitations.
I wonder how rigid the courts are in upholding non-compete agreements in favor of the business. I can't imagine that (in this case) a well established business such as SU! could reasonably argue that their entire business is at serious risk of going out of business because of a handful of small competitors?
Non-coplete agreements of the type you're thinking about are agreements that are in place in an attempt to prevent an employee from competing with the company after the employee has been terminated or leaves voluntarily. Depending on how those are drafted courts may determine that the non-compete is over broad and prevents that emplyee from earning a living. This is not the case here.
The non-compete in the contract between an independent demonstrator and SU states that you can't represent competing companies at the same time. It does not try to prohibit the independent demonstrator from contracting with a competitor after they are no longer an SU demo.
All this talk about Avon made me look too. I couldn't find any scrapbooking stuf,, but there is so much they carry now I don't even know where to look. Some of thestuff is kind of cute! Does anyone have a link to their scrap booking selections?
I was going on what I had "heard" here. I couldn't find the scrapbooking stuff either, but lord what a bunch of other stuff they have! :-)
And I agree Denise - I had the same reaction to the resin figurine news. But to each his own...that's just not my cup of tea. However, you can tell it didn't do well or they would still be working it. I might actually force my upline to dig them out though, just for a chuckle. If I can get her to do that, I'll post a pic! LOL
__________________ Shan
-Never get so busy making a living, that you forget to make a life-
I hate to thread jack, but...what doesn't Avon carry (and no I am not an Avon rep...hahaha) You mentioned food not being there...depends on the time of year I think...I have seen edibles on there once or twice...
Now to the thread at hand...I can see this discussion from both sides...this is truly a difficult time for those who belong to both companies. I have learned one thing (actually two things) from working in the retail sector and many direct sales businesses, welcome to free enterprise and companies look out for their own best interest. Unfortunately, their "best interest" is going to hurt quite a few pocketbooks and loyalties. I hope for those who do work both businesses there is a happy medium and a solution will work itself out to make a win-win for everyone, however, a grandfathering clause I don't feel will work, there have been many others before this who had to choose between one company or the other, and they have all made sacrifices, why should it be okay now for this one company and not the others?.
Companies will go on, Direct sales business is a huge HUGE business, I have been in many (including Avon a very very very long time ago) and I have yet to see one change its policy because it hurt a segment of their sales force. I love when direct sales companies say you are not in business alone...yes you truly are and when you do something we don't like or stop making minimums...we will drop you. That is their right, they are the ones making the rules. The stinging is still fresh from this announcement, but that too shall pass...hopefully when more information come out to the demos there will be more clarity to the situation.
Maybe I can hope SU will manufacture carpeting in their colors...my walls are fine, it is the flooring that I hate in my home.
SU vs. UCL comparison
