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-   -   The Fate of Coordinating Dies? (https://www.splitcoaststampers.com/forums/tool-product-talk-f128/fate-coordinating-dies-t628487.html)

fionna51 08-12-2019 05:42 AM

Janis...I'm figuring that it is a "youtube" demo. In other words, those who make a lot of videos for their blogs.

jnsyr 08-12-2019 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionna51 (Post 21853656)
Janis...I'm figuring that it is a "youtube" demo. In other words, those who make a lot of videos for their blogs.


Ahhh...thanks! Makes sense!

lutheran 08-12-2019 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lylacfey (Post 21853611)
Legitimate question. :) I have been watching some SU YT demo's. A couple of demo's are not using a die cutting machine at all since the partnership ended because they were told by their uplines to not use a Big Shot and to wait for the new SU machine.

Then other YT demo's are pulling out their Gemini's, still using their SU branded Big Shots, etc.... I do know the demo's who are still using the SU branded Big Shots do say in their videos that SU has retired the machine. They are still using it.

Are the "waiting ladies" receiving confusing info from their upline?

Not trying to start SU drama, so I hope my curiosity and confusion doesn't read that way. I have the curiosity of a cat.

When the new catalog released and I looked at the new dies & before I saw those videos I thought to myself the demo's are probably super excited they can use their choice of machines. I know a few demo's were excited about selling their SU branded Big Shots to upgrade to a Gemini.

I don't think SU! has said that demos using different brands of machines or a Big Shot has to put a disclaimer in their videos. We got lots of info when the changes were announced and nothing was mentioned specifically about videos. Demos should be making it clear that they are demo-ing to sell stamps, dies and EFs and not the machines. IMO.

If a demo sells their Big Shot to buy a different brand, that's cool for now. But they may regret that choice when SU! has a new machine to offer and they end up buying yet another new machine so their videos, classes and product demos are up to date with what is in the catalog. My Big Shot has been limping along forever and I hope it will last until a new machine is launched by SU! (Ditto for the paper trimmer, but that's a whole other thread.)
Mary Beth

fifiwesfan 08-12-2019 10:57 AM

I don't think SU moving away from Sizzix had anything to do with the lawsuits. SU was already licensing their dies from Sizzix so its not like they would get sued and it seems to me the lawsuits would drive customers to SU since they would have still be providing coordinating dies while the companies that lost the lawsuit, wouldn't. SU only wants their demos and customers to use their supplies so I'd think they would be ok with having a leg-up on the competition. I do wonder though if the dissolution of the partnership resulted partly from the Dies By Dave debacle. Like, maybe SU would have to order a certain amount of dies from Sizzix and they didn't want to invest in dies for all their stamps, thinking they'd be stuck with a huge surplus (their clearance sales always have a lot of dies). Then when Dave started providing dies for those stamps and they were in serious demand, they realized they were missing out on some sales. Just speculation and wonder on my part - I don't know anything about the behind-the-scenes business dealings of any corporations, let alone SU/Sizzix.

lylacfey 08-13-2019 09:58 PM

Thank you for all the responses to my question. Poor demo's getting wrong info from their uplines. That is very sad and also limiting for those girls talent.

The SU/Sizzix dissolve. I don't think it's nefarious. With Shelli & her DH closing ClearSnap's company. Of course they are not carrying Sizzix products, and a few other changes. I think Shelli & her DH are wanting to retire, downsize their businesses, consolidate SU into something more manageable for this stage in their life. I think they want to travel. If you look at her blog she has the traveling bug. :) No, I don't think SU/Sizzix is anything related. I think it's a couple in a new exciting stage in their life and wanting to enjoy it.

mcoffee96 08-19-2019 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesliespringer (Post 21848208)
Is Tim Holtz with Sizzix? I'm just starting to get into his stamps and just want to know if this is the company he is with, if so has an TH fans stopped buying TH products because they are made by Sizzix? Just a need to know, Not trying to start any debates or bad feelings, or commenting.

Yes, Tim Holtz' dies are Sizzix, but he renames them (embossing folders are called texture fades) and the packaging looks a bit different. You wouldn't notice at first glance that they are Sizzixx.

bjeans 08-19-2019 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcoffee96 (Post 21856564)
Yes, Tim Holtz' dies are Sizzix, but he renames them (embossing folders are called texture fades) and the packaging looks a bit different. You wouldn't notice at first glance that they are Sizzixx.


Mine have Sizzix prominently placed - like on this one... Tim’s name to the right, Sizzix logo in circle to the left. Same with Texture Fades. Have they changed recently?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.spl...9c398f9fb.jpeg

lylacfey 08-20-2019 01:38 AM

Bjeans I really love that Sizzix set. I know you were trying to show logo's and not enable. I want that set, lol.

No, Tim's Sizzix logo has not changed on the new sets. The big Sizzix logo is on the texture fades too.

BohemianBelle 08-20-2019 07:36 PM

Whoever manufactures dies have probably been losing money for some time. Dies are made of steel, of course... don't forget the hefty tariffs that are being levied on steel that is being imported to the USA from China. I've seen several manufacturers of steel/steel products (although not dies specifically, mind you) that have come on TV and said China is pretty much the only place they can get steel these days, and that these extra taxes are killing them. So anyhow, I'm sure they've had to raise their prices, resulting in higher prices for stamp/die companies too. So, perhaps the timing of the Sizzix lawsuit has something to do with that... because as someone said, these other companies' dies have been out for ages... why sue now? Sizzix may be having financial issues in their company and are trying to win a monetary settlement or attempting to kill off the competition (more likely). Or... I could totally be wrong about all this. I like to speculate and toss out possible scenarios, even if they sound nuts to some people.. lmao!

In any case... here's to hoping that this encourages people to give up analog dies and switch to digital cutting. Dies take up precious space, and cost an arm and a leg. They really are too expensive for what they actually ARE.. a rinky-dink piece of thin metal. Sure, a Cricut machine, Silhouette, etc. costs more up front, but the thing pays for itself in no time flat, and then the savings start adding up quickly (and are used to buy more crafty goodness, of course). The more people who start using digital cutting machines, the more the companies will see fit to innovate and improve their products. The Cricut Maker is pretty darn near perfect... but one can always elevate their game!

bjeans 08-20-2019 08:23 PM

Good point about the cost of steel now due to tariffs, and possible connection. Who knows what the tipping point was for the law suit? But speculating can be interesting.

I had a Silhouette, and got rid of it. It was nice but digital crafting just wasn’t fun. I’ve happily used computers since the 80's so it's not a lack of comfort, just personal taste. I’ll print out the occasional sentiment but that's it.

But I probably won’t buy many more dies, having enough. And I use some for embossing and as stencils, so they’re stretched a bit.

stampin stacy 08-21-2019 07:35 AM

Quote:

has an TH fans stopped buying TH products because they are made by Sizzix

I think of this as being like a 2 year old's temper tantrum. If you keep letting them get away with it then they keep throwing temper tantrums. Corporate behavior will not change if we keep making excuses such as "just this one designer, just this one time or one one die set" multiplied by all the others who are doing the same thing. Regardless how much I may love an artist/designer, I will not be buying their product as long as they are with Sizzix.

I'll say it again, I can happily survive without any company's product that is not behaving in a way that I feel is professional and courteous to their customers and by extension to others in their field.

bjeans 08-21-2019 07:55 AM

I agree with you, Stacy, about standing up for what you believe, and respect those who do that.

The issue for me is I don’t know who’s in the right or wrong, or inadvertently wrong - like not getting legal advice about trademarks. And this will likely be settled - as most lawsuits are.

That’s aside from the fact that most card makers will never have heard of the lawsuit and if they have, would shrug it off. But I also agree that if *any* manufacturer disappeared there’d be sufficient supplies and options to keep us overloaded with paper crafting supplies forever.

fifiwesfan 08-21-2019 08:44 AM

I bought what I believe is the original ScanNCut (CM250?) a couple of years ago from Costco specifically to cut stamped images. Brother no longer supports it but it has more than paid for itself with the money (and space!) I've saved in not purchasing coordinating dies. I will only buy a die if its something unique, like Tim's are. I'm sure I could get the ScanNCut to do something similar but I just don't have the time right now to invest in learning how use all that this machine offers so, yes, I will still buy Tim's dies. I was never a big Sizzix fan except for Tim, their designs just don't grab me. My Big Shot died just before the lawsuit news broke and I wasn't happy with the support I received from Sizzix so I had already decided not to replace it and to wait for a deal on the Platinum 6. (I have a Gemini but, yep, I have plenty of Tim's steal dies so a manual is needed, lol)

lylacfey 08-22-2019 01:19 AM

I did not want to get in the Sizzix debate because the lawsuits just make us all so weary. I know I feel that way.

Sizzix sold a couple of years back to the new owner. He's a European businessman. He is not in our industry. He's been restructuring the company.

This is just my speculation. I also have seen the business industry insider's have the same speculation. This gentleman is not in our industry. He does not understand our industry. He's just running this like any other business in his portfolio. He does not see Sizzix as a beloved company. He sees Sizzix as part of his portfolio. He has probably seen that Sizzix has had some losses over the years. I am sure they have with the latest technological advances. As many restructuring companies he's using the lawsuits to recoup lost gains. I have a small migraine tonight so I hope this all makes sense.

Don't shoot me, lol. I am not taking up for the dude. My heart goes out to the companies and the stress and confusion they are going through. Trust me when I first heard about the lawsuits my mouth dropped open. My heart goes out to Sizzix too, especially all the employee's & talented artists. I was like "Sizzix you were standing right in front of all these die companies during CHA & Creativation over the years and not once you went up to them and said "Um, there might be a small patent problem with the dies?" I am sure Avery Elle and all the others would have been more than willing to fix things. When I heard Sizzix had a new owner I knew what happened. Business 101 it might be shady, and we find it unethical, but it is legal. Please don't shoot me, lol. I am in the gaming industry. I have seen this happen a lot. I don't like it, it does affect me as a freelance artist, it does make morale low for gamer's and causes divides. It sucks for everyone involved. With crafting becoming a more lucrative business prospect I do think we will see more of this in our industry as individuals and companies that are not in our industry wanting to add our beloved companies to their portfolios.

Manual dies and E-cutting both will always have their place. Both will involve with each of their technological advances. They will both be used for a very long time. I have been die cutting with both types of machines since the 80's.

I buy all my items on clearance, thrifting, Ali and Ebay. If I see a Sizzix die at the thrift store I running out the door with it. Don't worry I will pay for it, ROFL!

bjeans 08-22-2019 04:36 AM

Maybe the new owner hasn’t gone to CHA, or even if he did, or delegated someone to go, if the new (to him) company is just part of his portfolio, there'd be no connection/friendship with other companies. As you point out, it’s just business.

As for Ali (China) many of their dies - and huge amounts of non craft items - are direct copies, aka stolen - from small companies and artists. Lots articles on line, including about lawsuits - though being in China, ineffective.

fionna51 08-22-2019 12:08 PM

DeeAnn...sounds like a replay of the ProvoCraft debacle that began 10 years ago or so. BOA buys them, discontinues all non-electric tools except the Cuttlebug, files suit against all the makers of stuff to use with Cricut, makes a lot of enemies and puts a lot of craft software businesses out of business. (that's a very condensed version of a years long issue)

lylacfey 08-23-2019 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjeans (Post 21857646)
Maybe the new owner hasn’t gone to CHA, or even if he did, or delegated someone to go, if the new (to him) company is just part of his portfolio, there'd be no connection/friendship with other companies. As you point out, it’s just business.


As for Ali (China) many of their dies - and huge amounts of non craft items - are direct copies, aka stolen - from small companies and artists. Lots articles on line, including about lawsuits - though being in China, ineffective.

There are some US artists that are designing dies specifically for Ali stores now. I watch a couple of the girls on YouTube who are designer's. Their dies are so cute. They need support and love too.

I am not defending this. I know a lot of artists are hurt by Ali & Ebay. I do understand. I have more trouble with Etsy and digital sellers than I do Ali with my own work.

Sizzix I read that he has three women who helps him run the company. I am going to assume they are the ones going to Creativation now. That is an assumption. I am sure Creativation girls probably have more eyewitness accounts.

Like I said earlier don't shoot me for relaying news I read on my craft news sites. :) I do find all of this interesting. I do invest so I actually do pay attention to companies and how the companies are run so I can invest in the companies- stocks, etc... I have had a stressful and very scary past couple of years. It really effected my online postings. I can see I was developing a mob mentality. That is sooooo not me. I am a positive happy lady IRL.

lylacfey 08-23-2019 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionna51 (Post 21857867)
DeeAnn...sounds like a replay of the ProvoCraft debacle that began 10 years ago or so. BOA buys them, discontinues all non-electric tools except the Cuttlebug, files suit against all the makers of stuff to use with Cricut, makes a lot of enemies and puts a lot of craft software businesses out of business. (that's a very condensed version of a years long issue)


fionna you nailed it! That's what I have been thinking too. I feel so weary about it. Like it's deja vu. We have had some high profile lawsuits in our industry these past few years. A couple of them I did not agree with the way they were handled at all. I always said they had a right to sue and if the party that was being sued did something wrong then they need to get in trouble for it.

I get stress and how it makes you do things that six months to two years later you look back and think you could have handled that a lot better. :) You feel shameful. :) Real life experience here, lol.

This Sizzix lawsuit is Cricut again in a lot of ways. I know girls it sucks. It sucks big time for us. A lot of us love Sizzix. Fionna is right Bank of America bought Cricut and they didn't know our industry and it slapped them hard. I am glad Cricut rebounded because I always think of the employee's and their mortgages and medical bills.

I said above I love to invest. I know for a fact our industry is lucrative and tempting. We will see more non-crafting businesses adding our crafting companies to their portfolios.

This is our new normal.

American Crafts, of course if part of our industry, and they are snagging everyone up. Which is really smart even though it's controversial. Company drives me bonkers on some of the decisions they make, lol. I respect them too. I do wonder if they might have looked at Sizzix but I think at the time they were looking at Simplicity/Wilton as a better bet. C'mon that is EK Success under that too. Wow! I would have been all over that, lol.

bjeans 08-23-2019 05:12 AM

OT Amazon is another one. The owner of one die company has hired a person full time solely to find their unique, stolen designs that are being manufactured by Chinese companies, and reporting them to Amazon. Amazon will remove the item, but a company under a different name will just pop up like mushrooms - all probably the same company.

Ali Express steals massively from companies and artists, not just in the craft industry. An artist on SCS has had her designs stolen. I couldn’t support those who design for them. It just seems misguided, given the crimes they’ve committed.

For me it would be like working for someone in real life who has committed a huge number of crimes that hurt many small companies and individuals. Even if that person was good to me, how can I put blinders on to the harm they’ve done?

But everyone draws his/her own line in the sand when it comes to integrity and right or wrong. That’s just where mine is. YMMV :)

lylacfey 08-25-2019 03:03 AM

Bjeans I buy items off of Ali & Ebay. Yes, I do buy dies off of Ali & Ebay. Above post I wrote there are legitimate designers who are now creating dies for Ali stores & have their own stores. I know of two designer's who do this. I love to support them. Also there are many, many legitimate people selling dies on Ebay such as their old Sizzix collection. Also there are smaller legitimate craft stores that sell dies from major name brands. With the death of LSS I like to support these stores as my new cyber LSS.

I prefer to buy my items used and give these items a new home. I also donate my items when I am done with it so my item can find a new loved home.

I have already had one of my own art pieces turned into a diamond painting without my permission. Last year I had several of my designs stolen from an Etsy seller that was selling planner printables. That one was so insane I had to have the gaming studio that licensed my work step in with their legal team. I don't blame Etsy & I don't blame Ali. Both companies were very gracious and helpful with my issues.

I am not trying to start a flame war. :) Last thing I want to do. Just saying as an artist I do understand the artists. Copyright theft is terrible. It hurts terribly no matter how many years you have been dealing with it. I have been dealing with it for two decades. I have learned in all those years and wisdom that working with the companies has been a lot more successful. I do agree that Ali can be the worst but they also have been the best to me as an artist when working with theft. I have had a good relationship with them.

I always try to be kind and fair to people. I always give people a chance to rectify things.

bjeans 08-25-2019 04:47 AM

Oh, I hadn’t mentioned ebay, only Ali Express plus other Chinese companies on Amazon. I realize you said you knew of a couple of women who design for them. That's what I was responding to.

I can’t see supporting a company that steals from huge numbers of companies and designers/artists. Their working legitimately with others doesn’t excuse the harm they inflict or their criminality, even aside from horrendous working conditions of employees.

(Lots of articles about that, and several threads here about buying Chinese dies, whether from Ali or other companies.)

See, if a company steals your design that you worked hard on, reproduces it and sells it to me for 1/8th of the price you would get for it, I don’t see how that’s okay - even if that company treated someone else well.

Just my take - and to stop my boring repetitiveness, am out. Enjoy the day.

jnsyr 08-25-2019 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lylacfey (Post 21857605)

Sizzix sold a couple of years back to the new owner. He's a European businessman. He is not in our industry. He's been restructuring the company.


I'm not seeing that when I checked online. According to this press release link from the Sizzix site (and the parent company Ellison's website), the company was run by the founders' granddaughter until 2018, when she was promoted from CEO to its global board of directors, & the new CEO came from its European business area--and he had worked for the company for a number of years by then. I see nothing about it ever being sold.

I did find these reviews on Glassdoor by former employees, which correlates with what was said. Seems like there will always be more negative than positive reviews on Glassdoor (the nature of the Internet beast), but there is a definite shift in attitude after the new CEO came on board.

Really, all that companies need to do is make their dies with a lip around the cutting edge rather than to the edge as Sizzix has patented. Sizzix is protecting its patent & has a legal right to do so, whether we like it or not. If companies don't protect their patents, they lose the value of the patent. I think a lot of these cases are settling out of court because it's recognized that Sizzix did indeed patent it, and so the other companies can either pay a fee to Sizzix to make their dies (as Stampin' Up! used to do) or will make their dies with the cutting surface not at the edge (as Stampin' Up! now does). The companies don't have to use Sizzix to make their dies--they just can't infringe on the Sizzix patent. It's not a case of closing up shop because they can't make a product anymore, but in changing their die production. Obviously thin dies are inexpensive to make or there wouldn't be so many companies offering them (unlike when the thick dies were the norm). I am not brushing off the cost & effort of changing production/suppliers, but a patent is a patent, and I don't think this needs to be the death of thin dies.

I'm interested in whether or not digital cutters like the Scan N Cut will eliminate thin dies. I hope not. I've had a Cricut & a Silhouette, but I'm a tactile person & I enjoy the dies.

Thanks for an interesting conversation. I love that people are so passionate about it. I hope all of the companies will pay attention to us AND will stay in business. (Still smarting at the loss of Clearsnap.)

lylacfey 08-25-2019 11:55 PM

bjeans You have always been one of my fav's over here. Let's just agree to disagree, if that is OK. I respect your values very, very much on this issue. I respect your input about this issue. I think it's really sweet you are protective of the designer's. I don't want to feel attacked over this & I don't want you to feel attacked over this.

jnsyr- Oh Wow! Well, that does change things! :) One of my friends is a designer for Sizzix and she told me he is the new owner. That the granddaughter let go of the reins of the company. Her words not mine. I made a bad assumption that he bought the company. Natural transitions and all that in the business world. When I found out there was this man that was controlling Sizzix I asked her for the 411. :) She gave me quite a bit, lol.

I do feel my speculations still stand for my own musings. :) He's restructuring the company. The lawsuits and recent employee firings are part of it. Instead of Sizzix being part of his portfolio it is now part of his resume and portfolio. That does change things because at the time I thought he was the CEO but bought the company at a later date. Not, that he's just the CEO and Sizzix still holds reins. Thank you jnsyr for the clarification.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I do enjoy the speculations as somebody who likes to invest.

Cook22 08-26-2019 12:07 AM

It's saddened me to see all the rip-off dies (and stamps too, I recently saw a copy of a PB clear set I own) on Amazon. Can normal users report stuff like this, or does only the company have a right to? It's made buying on Amazon more of a labyrinth, though I always try to buy brand names I recognise, and the names, as well as the prices, of the Chinese companies are usually a giveaway. What saddened me even more about the stamp set was the images from someone's blog used to illustrate it :-(.

bjeans 08-26-2019 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cook22 (Post 21859154)
It's saddened me to see all the rip-off dies (and stamps too, I recently saw a copy of a PB clear set I own) on Amazon. Can normal users report stuff like this, or does only the company have a right to? It's made buying on Amazon more of a labyrinth, though I always try to buy brand names I recognise, and the names, as well as the prices, of the Chinese companies are usually a giveaway. What saddened me even more about the stamp set was the images from someone's blog used to illustrate it :-(.


A SCS artist and designer has had art from her blog stolen in that way. She posted about it.

If I recognized the stolen art I'd contact the company and Amazon - through the report link at the top of the page and possibly an email through their contact form with a link to the item. Its found through the Help link at the bottom of each page:

Help > Need More Help > Contact Us > Contact Us (again on the next page) > Email Customer Service > Other Issues

Maybe there’s a less convoluted way but it only takes a few seconds. Clearly they’re not encouraging people to email!

fifiwesfan 01-29-2020 11:04 AM

Posted on the Hero Arts Blog:<br><br>"Hero Arts Rubber Stamps, Inc. and Ellison Educational Equipment, Inc.
have come to a resolution of their past disputes and look forward to
future opportunities to foster artistry, creativity and innovation in
the crafting industry."

stampin stacy 01-30-2020 06:51 AM

Ugh, no details, I was afraid of that.&nbsp; Consumers need AND deserve to know.


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