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-   -   cuttlebug and angel policy (https://www.splitcoaststampers.com/forums/tool-product-talk-f128/cuttlebug-angel-policy-t412540.html)

Ellibelle 01-19-2009 10:17 AM

cuttlebug and angel policy
 
I just want to hear everyone else's opinion on this. I purchased 3 cuttlebug folders, and then found out that their angel policy is not really good enough for me. I want to make cards and be able to sell them whereever I wish to. Not that I really have any time right now to do that, but maybe someday I will. I will not be purchasing their products anymore! (SU sizzix texture plates-here I come). I am so glad I bought the big kick instead of the cuttlebug, I just will not invest my money into things I won't be able to use the way I wish to.

wagleg 01-19-2009 10:21 AM

This is the same reason I don't buy from some stamp companies, even though their images are adorable.

CandyStripe 01-19-2009 10:38 AM

:eek: I didn't know about that, so had a search and here's a link to explain the legalities for anyone who's interested.

http://www.provocraft.com/company/le...gel.policy.php


That will certainly make me think twice before I buy anymore.

I do use my sizzix texture plates a lot but there are some designs that they don't have that I would like.

austamper 01-19-2009 10:43 AM

Yeah it's REALLY strict and if selling is important to you, not worth it!

Angelnorth 01-19-2009 11:15 AM

Spellbinder's policy is similar so if selling is important to you then you might want to think twice about Nesties etc as well. They don't have the restriction that ProvoCraft do on mixing with other people's products (personally, I think that's the real killer - I could make and sell a card with CB embossing and die cuts but not if I include a stamped image on there) but they do have the "limited and local" clause in there. The Spellbinder policy is on their customer service page here.

Bellegirl 01-19-2009 11:26 AM

Wow...this really bites...so, if I understand this correctly...I may NOT sell a card with a CB embossed folder and a stamped image layered over it?

Fanny de Lens 01-19-2009 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellegirl (Post 12787182)
Wow...this really bites...so, if I understand this correctly...I may NOT sell a card with a CB embossed folder and a stamped image layered over it?

Really???

3girls1guy 01-19-2009 11:31 AM

So what if you use other ProvoCraft products- like the expression. Make up card kits to sell- using die cut cricut stuff- is that "illegal" too?

ashleyprugh 01-19-2009 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanny de Lens (Post 12787226)
Really???

basically, that's the gist of it.

Angelnorth 01-19-2009 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3girls1guy (Post 12787256)
So what if you use other ProvoCraft products- like the expression. Make up card kits to sell- using die cut cricut stuff- is that "illegal" too?

The policy doesn't mention anything about selling die cuts etc, it only deals with handcrafted goods. I guess if you sold the kits with the rider that the finished cards were for personal use only you might be OK but you might want to check that out if you do any amount of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanny de Lens (Post 12787226)
Really???

The Provo Craft policy says:

2. Any craftwork to be sold must not incorporate third-party copyrighted material. The craftwork must contain only Provo Craft products that are sold under the Provo Craft trademark.

A stamped image would be third party copyrighted material so I don't see a way to do it. Same for DP - it's copyrighted so that would be a no-no too. I'm glad I don't make to sell, what a headache trying to get your head round this lot!

CandyStripe 01-19-2009 12:05 PM

I don't think the Spellbinders policy is anywhere near as strict though.
I think as long as you are not mass producing cards using the nesties you will be fine, as this clause states....

........However, you are permitted to use the Wizardô Embossing & Die Cutting System for limited commercial purposes. We do require that your endeavor be limited and local in nature, handmade by the artist or crafter. Please do not mass-produce, allow production by hired workers or produce your work in assembly line fashion. You are permitted to sell your artwork and craft projects at seasonal fairs and events, community fundraisers, festivals and craft events......

1lovestocraft 01-19-2009 12:30 PM

Wow! and not in a good way. It never occurred to me that I couldn't sell handcrafted cards that I make using both the embossing folders and the nesties. Makes sense to not allow the commercial operation, but the little amount of selling of handmade cards? To me, it is a complement to these companies that the crafter uses their products to make beautiful cards, LO, etc. Am I wrong?

Ellibelle 01-19-2009 12:42 PM

I didn't know about the nesties! Glad I only bought 2 sets! It's a shame:( , they are so much fun!

Westies 01-19-2009 02:59 PM

I think it is ridiculous that so many of these crafting companies put restrictions on the use of their products. Afterall, one is not going to make a fortune selling anything handcrafted and as far as I am concerned, it is free advertisement for the companies when you use their product to make your crafts.

thecountryrose 01-19-2009 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westies (Post 12789969)
I think it is ridiculous that so many of these crafting companies put restrictions on the use of their products. Afterall, one is not going to make a fortune selling anything handcrafted and as far as I am concerned, it is free advertisement for the companies when you use their product to make your crafts.

Very well said! I agree 100%.

pricecheck 01-19-2009 03:29 PM

Well that stinks.

53queenbee 01-19-2009 03:34 PM

How do they know? Is there a police force for craft shows? I swear they are taking all the fun out of this. They should be glad their product is selling right now!

row4d 01-19-2009 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westies (Post 12789969)
I think it is ridiculous that so many of these crafting companies put restrictions on the use of their products. Afterall, one is not going to make a fortune selling anything handcrafted and as far as I am concerned, it is free advertisement for the companies when you use their product to make your crafts.

If you want to use art images you didn't design, you're just gonna have to deal with it or come up with your own stamp line. Welcome to the wonderful world of copyright law and intellectual property!

Sorry to be so blunt, but people come on here and whine about this all the time. The reason that these companies make money from their intellectual property is that they have the legal right to determine how their work is used.

53queenbee 01-19-2009 04:12 PM

All I am saying is if they make it so tough then why buy the product???? I do not sell anything I make but it really does not seem right. I won't buy anymore of their product, that's for sure! Seems like in a soft economy they would be THRILLED to have anyone buying!

cjbapp 01-20-2009 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53queenbee (Post 12790393)
How do they know? Is there a police force for craft shows? I swear they are taking all the fun out of this. They should be glad their product is selling right now!

I agree!

I can understand the policies on ARTWORK, stamped images included, but I do not agree with the policy on using tools such as dies to create items to sell. In fact I do sell things I create with almost all the products out there. I have the right to puchase items and make whatever I would like out of it. If they don't want me to sell anything I create, sue me. Haha...that's their only option. And they don't have time for that. They would at most win the entire profit I made off of them which is NEGATIVE $5394.84.

Yep, I use Cuttlebug folders (WITH non-provocraft stamps...GASP!), nestabilities, punches, etc...all in my projects. I sell a card a week, if that. It's not about mass-producing to make money...it's that I can sell my stuff if I want to.

momis mama 01-20-2009 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjbapp (Post 12796205)
I agree!

I can understand the policies on ARTWORK, stamped images included, but I do not agree with the policy on using tools such as dies to create items to sell. In fact I do sell things I create with almost all the products out there. I have the right to puchase items and make whatever I would like out of it. If they don't want me to sell anything I create, sue me. Haha...that's their only option. And they don't have time for that. They would at most win the entire profit I made off of them which is NEGATIVE $5394.84.

Yep, I use Cuttlebug folders (WITH non-provocraft stamps...GASP!), nestabilities, punches, etc...all in my projects. I sell a card a week, if that. It's not about mass-producing to make money...it's that I can sell my stuff if I want to.

yup! me too

i do sell a few cards here and there, but i am most definitely still WAY in the red!

Ellibelle 01-20-2009 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by row4d (Post 12790824)
If you want to use art images you didn't design, you're just gonna have to deal with it or come up with your own stamp line. Welcome to the wonderful world of copyright law and intellectual property!

Sorry to be so blunt, but people come on here and whine about this all the time. The reason that these companies make money from their intellectual property is that they have the legal right to determine how their work is used.

I hope my post didn't come over too whiny. At least I didn't want it to sound like it. Just wanted to hear others thoughts on it.
It is funny that most posters didn't even know about this angel policy since the cuttlebug stuff is so popular. I think every company should have a huge imprint on their package "Do not purchase if you are wanting to sell cards with our products". :D

Another thought...would they really sue somebody over it?

jody5gray 01-20-2009 07:08 AM

What's funny is the VERY few cards I sell. I turn around and buy more stuff. So if they really want to enforce it they will be really cutting their nose off to spite their face.

Ellibelle 01-20-2009 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jody5gray (Post 12797031)
What's funny is the VERY few cards I sell. I turn around and buy more stuff. So if they really want to enforce it they will be really cutting their nose off to spite their face.

That is just why I consider selling cards - so I can buy more stuff.

momis mama 01-20-2009 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jody5gray (Post 12797031)
What's funny is the VERY few cards I sell. I turn around and buy more stuff. So if they really want to enforce it they will be really cutting their nose off to spite their face.


me too... as soon as i get those FEW dollars they are tucked away for more supplies!

craftsrlb 01-20-2009 08:46 AM

provo craft
 
Not sure if this is a way to get around anything..but like on ebay when you can't sell tickets, they are selling a photo album and the tickets are a free gift with purchase. Wondering if we can sell the card and the background is free???Just a thought. I have a website that I "sell" cards on more like listed not really selling and the only way I buy more of their stuff is if I sell some, I mean I am a total hoarder but really how much stuff can you use or make to give away? I think that sure would put a cramp in the companies wallets??? Or are we just so obessed that we will buy it anyway???

swain78 01-20-2009 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jody5gray (Post 12797031)
What's funny is the VERY few cards I sell. I turn around and buy more stuff. So if they really want to enforce it they will be really cutting their nose off to spite their face.

Same here - how stinky of them! Luckily there are enough products out there, that I can just sell the cuttlebug and buy big shot :) At least it is simple and easy to follow their angel policy.

swain78 01-20-2009 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craftsrlb (Post 12798091)
Not sure if this is a way to get around anything..but like on ebay when you can't sell tickets, they are selling a photo album and the tickets are a free gift with purchase. Wondering if we can sell the card and the background is free???Just a thought. I have a website that I "sell" cards on more like listed not really selling and the only way I buy more of their stuff is if I sell some, I mean I am a total hoarder but really how much stuff can you use or make to give away? I think that sure would put a cramp in the companies wallets??? Or are we just so obessed that we will buy it anyway???

Or maybe you can advertise the other products - like the SU items and put their angel policy stamp on, and then say the cuttlebug images are a free gift :mrgreen:

kat2800 01-20-2009 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swain78 (Post 12798139)
Or maybe you can advertise the other products - like the SU items and put their angel policy stamp on, and then say the cuttlebug images are a free gift :mrgreen:

Great idea! :cool:

sprtchick 01-20-2009 09:49 AM

I agree with Cher.....I sell all the stuff...to buy more stuff....
Blessings.

JulieHRR 01-20-2009 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellibelle (Post 12796515)
Another thought...would they really sue somebody over it?

Well, it's very well known that Disney will not hesitate, no matter how small and inconsequential a crafter might think they are.

Provo Craft has purchased licenses from Disney, to produce Disney images on various craft products.


As someone else has mentioned, this topic has been raised repeatedly, so I guess I'll repeat what I've repeated before, too. :D

Intellectual property rights and copyright law exist for the protection of all; to disregard them hurts the very artists/illustrators, and creative geniuses behind the very products we claim to love and want to buy.

This is rampant in the music industry, and it is happening in the craft industry as well, causing huge losses in revenue.

If they can't make a living because others are profiting off their intellectual property, no matter what it is, no matter how little, without permission, they eventually quit and go take jobs in other fields where they can.

It's a much bigger picture, and you can't just look at it from the perspective of, "Well, *little ol' me* is not making big money."

It is the collective damage done by thousands with this mindset that hurts the very industry that supplies the products we love to buy and use.

There's so much more to the creative industries (music, art, craft & hobby, etc.) than consumers are aware of, and the trickle down effect of disregarding copyright for one's own benefit has more negative impact than you might imagine.

OK, I'm off. ;)

crafty1021 01-20-2009 02:38 PM

Very nicely said, Julie! I agree, I think we sometimes forget that much of our creativity feeds off the creativity of others. Without some fantastic artists creating the stamps and backgrounds, how could I hope to create a card, album page, or anything else? So, a huge thank you to the artists who make my "art" possible!

Lilliann 01-20-2009 03:32 PM

Well I dont sell many cards except out of a little box at work once and a while. But I do make tons of cards by hand 12 at a time and then at the end of the year give them away to friends, family and co-workers. I think these angle policys are crazy sometimes, I do understand them to some extent but come on. I happen to be married to a great artist and often have him draw things for me to make cards with with cute little sayings that I come up with myself. A friend of mine is also a great dooddler, and I'm not so bad with a pen either I was joking and saying lets make our own stamps to sell. Well we are not far from it now. We will copyright the images within the month and be sending them out to make them into stamps. My angle policy will be: have fun!!! Dont steal my S%$# and dont mass produce with machines everything must be hand done. sell your handmade stuff where ever you wish just gives us the cudos (advertisement) And mix them with whatever products work best for you. I will let ya know when they are ready:)

cat_woman 01-20-2009 07:29 PM

Well, I haven't started selling cards, but was contemplating it. I'm sure glad I figured out how to make my own embossing folders with my CraftRobo. I have quite a few cuttlebug folders, but haven't bought any for about year, and now that I know this, I probably won't buy anymore...

crowfeather 01-20-2009 07:32 PM

I am new to rubber stamping and I certainly don't want to ever sell my things. However, I have looked at the Spellbinders Nestibilities and other dies and embossing folders . A person could spend THOUSANDS of dollars if they bought all of them. Do these companies think they will remain in business if only people like me, who only want to make a few cards for family and friends, buy a couple of their products? It would seem to me these dies are tools. And I know no one can copyright a geometric shape such as a square, circle, rectangle or oval. So they can't claim copyright on the plain edge geometric shapes. Interesting

ldsk34 01-21-2009 03:50 AM

WOW, thanks for the heads up!!! I've always had a dream of selling my art work to "make money". I do respect each and everyone's policy on when it comes to using "their" products to produce my art work. But I had not idea with the nesties and cuttlebut stuff.... I will be more aware of this in the future.

BTW, I have not sold the first card yet, but I can dream!!!

Always hope,

tchk 01-21-2009 03:57 AM

Julie wrote a terrific post that explains some of the reasons for copyright laws.

I come from a needlework background and have known some of the best people in the industry over the years. The violation of copyright law- by those who said things like "the designers should be happy that I buy their charts" or "I'm not making a lot of money out of it"- has radically altered the needlework industry in recent years. I personally know several designers whose lost income has forced them out of business; others have seen their incomes drop dramatically because of the trickle effects of too many individuals who see nothing wrong with violating copyright law.

If you don't like the angel policy of a company, then do not buy their products for use in creating things to sell. Those policies are designed to protect the company and their intellectual property.

People need to see beyond their own selfish, self-centered perspectives. These companies are not setting rules to make your life more difficult, they are setting rules, legal rules that they are entitled to make, to preserve their company and the jobs of those employed by them.

Will you get caught if you violate angel policies? Maybe, maybe not. But, the needlework industry has become more aggressive in finding and prosecuting those who break the laws about copyright and the paper craft industry is likely to follow the same route if the practice becomes rampant.

Violation of copyright, including angel policies, is stealing, plain and simple. It's illegal. You are breaking the law. There are legal remedies for the companies and they can pursue them. If the actions of many individuals- who don't see that their individual action, repeated over and over by uncounted numbers of others who think the same way- start to impact the company's income, they will decide to take action against the perpetrators, or will go out of business.

And, is that what you want?

CandyStripe 01-21-2009 05:07 AM

Personally, I don't see it as a case of people being greedy or selfish by using the embossing folders or nesties for backgrounds for cards to sell. These companies are not selling an image that one of their design team has created, people are just using it as a framework for their own designs.

I can't see how it's any different from buying a plain picture frame from a company and decorating it to your own taste then putting your own picture in it it to sell :confused:

Or those plain chipboard/wooden letters - if you buy those and decorate them and sell them, how is that any different? As far as I'm aware, these companies don't have an angel policy

Or in the case of the embossing folders, how is that different from buying backing paper and puttin your own design on top of it :confused:


I think in the case of stamps, the image on the stamp is created by the person designing it then they have the right to say whether they wish that image to be used for the buyer to reproduce in certain ways.

If these companies do not wish the products they sell to be used in certain ways then they should state this in BOLD lettering on their packaging and buyers would be more aware and I think you'd find that people would be less likely to buy them. Instead they choose to put a notice on a website where a lot of people are not likely to see it (which has been proven by the reaction from just this thread alone!)

Just my opinion on the matter ;)

paisley_frogs 01-21-2009 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilliann (Post 12803134)
Well I dont sell many cards except out of a little box at work once and a while. But I do make tons of cards by hand 12 at a time and then at the end of the year give them away to friends, family and co-workers. I think these angle policys are crazy sometimes, I do understand them to some extent but come on. I happen to be married to a great artist and often have him draw things for me to make cards with with cute little sayings that I come up with myself. A friend of mine is also a great dooddler, and I'm not so bad with a pen either I was joking and saying lets make our own stamps to sell. Well we are not far from it now. We will copyright the images within the month and be sending them out to make them into stamps. My angle policy will be: have fun!!! Dont steal my S%$# and dont mass produce with machines everything must be hand done. sell your handmade stuff where ever you wish just gives us the cudos (advertisement) And mix them with whatever products work best for you. I will let ya know when they are ready:)

PROPS, girl!!

Ellibelle 01-21-2009 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tchk (Post 12808918)
Julie wrote a terrific post that explains some of the reasons for copyright laws.

I come from a needlework background and have known some of the best people in the industry over the years. The violation of copyright law- by those who said things like "the designers should be happy that I buy their charts" or "I'm not making a lot of money out of it"- has radically altered the needlework industry in recent years. I personally know several designers whose lost income has forced them out of business; others have seen their incomes drop dramatically because of the trickle effects of too many individuals who see nothing wrong with violating copyright law.

If you don't like the angel policy of a company, then do not buy their products for use in creating things to sell. Those policies are designed to protect the company and their intellectual property.

People need to see beyond their own selfish, self-centered perspectives. These companies are not setting rules to make your life more difficult, they are setting rules, legal rules that they are entitled to make,
Quote:

to preserve their company and the jobs of those employed by them.

Will you get caught if you violate angel policies? Maybe, maybe not. But, the needlework industry has become more aggressive in finding and prosecuting those who break the laws about copyright and the paper craft industry is likely to follow the same route if the practice becomes rampant.

Violation of copyright, including angel policies, is stealing, plain and simple. It's illegal. You are breaking the law. There are legal remedies for the companies and they can pursue them. If the actions of many individuals- who don't see that their individual action, repeated over and over by uncounted numbers of others who think the same way- start to impact the company's income, they will decide to take action against the perpetrators, or will go out of business.

And, is that what you want?

I don't see in which way it would hurt the company or designer if people would use their stuff to make cards for sale. That would just make the card maker buy more of their products, and the company would feel motivated to design new things.
I do accept their policy and will NOT sell anything with their designs, but I will also limit the items I buy from them. I would spend my money with them, if it weren't for their strict policy, instead I will buy from the competitor. The way I see it, that hurts a company more, than if they had a more open angel policy.


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