In the Forums

Register

Today's Posts

Search

Get the Weekly
Inkling
newsletter





Previous Issues

Get Social

Splitcoaststampers on InstagramLike Splitcoaststampers on FacebookFollow Splitcoaststampers on TwitterPit Splitcoaststampers on Pinterest

Sponsored Ads


 
Splitcoaststampers.com - the world's #1 papercrafting community
You're currently viewing Splitcoaststampers as a GUEST. We pride ourselves on being great hosts, but guests have limited access to some of our incredible artwork, our lively forums and other super cool features of the site! You can join our incredible papercrafting community at NO COST. So what are you waiting for?

Join the party at Splitcoaststampers today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-02-2018, 01:00 PM   #1
Kookie Creator
 
Catherine773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
Posts: 487
Default Cost of Dies...

I'm so curious...

Why do you think the cost of dies that match stamp sets are so incredibly expensive? Majority of the time - they are priced higher than the stamp set. I understand the cost of stamp sets and all the designing and work that goes into the images and production of them. But the dies are simple borders to these designs that we pay for in the cost of the stamp set.

I'll be the first to admit, I have zero idea what goes on behind the scenes with having dies made and if the metal is expensive. I know nada about this subject. I just wish they were more affordable. And was wondering if anyone knows why their prices are so high? I wonder if in time their prices will come down too, maybe if these scan-n-cut machines really take off then I can buy dies for all my sets at last! Lol.
Catherine773 is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
pepperann likes this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 02:21 AM   #2
Die Cut Diva
 
shazsilverwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Worcestershire, England
Posts: 3,163
Default

Catherine, I totally agree. There have been conversations going on here about the dies from China/Aliexpress. They are ridiculously cheap! Very often, a matter of pennies per set. And, many of the Big names we associate with dies are having them made in China, pretty much every TH/Sizix die/set I have has made in China on it,so production costs are not the reason for such high prices. I can imagine a lot of money is paid to designers and so forth, and to those aforementioned Big names to associate their name with the product. That is what annoys me. I have no objection to paying a fair price for a product, but do object to paying for the branding. Not just in crafting, but across the board. I recently saw a frying pan (I think you call it a griddle pan?) that had a famous celebrity chef's name printed on the handle. Literally, that was it- a name on the handle, and it was 20+ more than an identical pan from an equally well known manufacturer. Who was probably making the celebrity chefs one anyway! Those Scan n Cut machines we can only hope will level the field a little.
__________________
silverwolfcards blog
My gallery
shazsilverwolf is online now  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
pepperann and Scrapjanny like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 03:16 AM   #3
Die Cut Diva
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Roygbiville
Posts: 3,756
Default

Branding jacks up prices in most everything. Jeans for $200-$300 for a label!? : )

A large part of the reason Chinese die prices (or Chinese anything) are so low is the extremely low cost of labor. Workers are paid $250-300/month, no benefits, 8-10 people sleeping in a room, 11-12 hour work days 7 days a week, 40-50 hours of forced monthly overtime.

I'm not being political; goodness knows I buy items are made in China - it's hard to avoid. Labor costs are just a huge factor.

If anyone wants to read a gazillion articles about it, google, "Chinese workers factory conditions" or "Chinese factories" or similar.

Last edited by bjeans; 04-03-2018 at 03:28 AM..
bjeans is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
pepperann, ChrisO and lehcarlies like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 04:27 AM   #4
Creative Crew SU Design Team Alumni
 
fionna51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fort Collins CO
Posts: 13,388
Default

Besides branding, demand allows for higher prices. We want dies, so we will pay the price for what we consider to be valuable. If we (papercrafters as a group) decide that dies are too expensive, and either quit buying them or buy the less expensive ones only, the prices will go down.
__________________
Diane
On SCS since 2005...Fan Club since 2007
Quiltzi...High Plains Member of Punchkateerz
I'll stand with arms high and heart abandoned,
in awe of the One who gave it all.
I'll stand, my soul, Lord, to You surrendered,
all I am is Yours.
fionna51 is online now  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Savagetwin and wavejumper like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:03 AM   #5
Splitcoast Artist in Residence
Splitcoast Dirty Dozen Alumni
Mix-Ability Challenge Hostess
 
dini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Warsaw, MO
Posts: 14,728
Default

For the dies that are made in the USA, the pricing is per sheet, and pricing is also tiered - so if you're a small company and you only produce one sheet of a large die or set, the per-piece pricing will be much higher than a large company that's able to start with a larger initial order. With a die that can only be used with a specific stamp set, too, the demand is going to be lower (so therefore it can be priced higher, if I remember my high school econ) because the set will only be purchased with the stamps. Clear stamp sets are "disposable" - breakdownable, tearable, and not meant to last forever - so I would definitely expect to pay more for a die (even coordinating) that's meant to last, and that's made from metal. The cost is high for the companies to custom order the dies too, so I guarantee they are doing their best to design the sets to take up the smallest footprint possible by nesting, creating outlines rather than solid-backed dies, etc. - and I don't think that branding is so much an issue with the US made dies as just a profitable markup. Also - the templates for the dies are created from stamp artwork, but working up the outlines and that whole process is done in a different program and saved as a different file type - there is a lot more that goes into it after the line art is created for the stamp. My two cents from the other side!
__________________
Dina K.
Dina Kowal Creative Custom Pet PortraitsMy Stamps

If you hear a voice within you say you cannot paint,
then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced.
Vincent Van Gogh





dini is online now  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Boss, pepperann, ChrisO and 9 others like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:06 AM   #6
Die Cut Diva
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Roygbiville
Posts: 3,756
Default

BTW, Gina Marie dies are less expensive than many. And she included a free die in my order a couple of weeks ago - a little flower/vine.

We can be creative shoppers and find less expensive dies that would give a similar look as an expensive die set we're drooling over. Just check size. (Once I didn't and the big flower I thought I was getting was tiny. Ha!)

One time Altenew had a block alpha die set I wanted for about $45. I paid $23 for a similar set from Concord & 9th that I liked even more since it double cuts the letter plus a skinny outline. Maybe this isn't the best example since $23 isn't super cheap, but it was for 35 dies (alpha + symbols).

Last edited by bjeans; 04-03-2018 at 05:10 AM..
bjeans is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:08 AM   #7
Die Cut Diva
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Roygbiville
Posts: 3,756
Default

I was hoping someone would speak to the manufacturing process, assuming it was far more costly than for stamps. Thank you Dina!
bjeans is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
dini likes this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:14 AM   #8
Stazon Splitcoast
 
Illinois Marge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 26,378
Default

Totally aside from manufacturing and cost of labor -- in my opinion, the artists and designers deserve to be paid for their creative intellectual property. On the cheap knockoffs, they are not paying the artist. In fact, they are often stealing from them. Also, for branded stuff -- it is the person behind the brand who shows us all the cool ways to use the product. The videos, the samples, the tutorials, the demos at the big craft shows. You don't get the 'inspiration' of how to use it with the knock-offs.
__________________
My Blog Cackling Crafter
Illinois Marge is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
dini, gregzgurl, DianeinSparks and 2 others like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 06:01 AM   #9
Proud Fan Club Member
 
gregzgurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Las Vegas, baby!
Posts: 12,199
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illinois Marge View Post
Totally aside from manufacturing and cost of labor -- in my opinion, the artists and designers deserve to be paid for their creative intellectual property. On the cheap knockoffs, they are not paying the artist. In fact, they are often stealing from them. Also, for branded stuff -- it is the person behind the brand who shows us all the cool ways to use the product. The videos, the samples, the tutorials, the demos at the big craft shows. You don't get the 'inspiration' of how to use it with the knock-offs.

It's also a pretty safe bet that the person behind the brand name "paid their dues". They weren't always well-known, and had to work really, really hard to become so. They graduated from The School of Hard Knocks, and deserve to be paid for that degree...
__________________
~ Sue
Happy for no reason...

gregzgurl is online now  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 06:05 AM   #10
Matboard Maniac
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 325
Default

I was just looking on wish and there are so many stamps and matching dies. Very reasonable price. I have ordered dies before. Cost is very reasonable and they cut great.
kymom is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 06:52 AM   #11
Rubber Obsessor
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjeans View Post
BTW, Gina Marie dies are less expensive than many. And she included a free die in my order a couple of weeks ago - a little flower/vine.
I've ordered from her a few times or so. She has to have the dies made in China because manufacturing here would be much more expensive. The stamps are more reasonable to be made here and they are photopolymer. My last order I emailed her to thank her for the extra gift (mine was chipboard buttons). She said she was trying to put a little something extra in everyone's order this year if she can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dini
For the dies that are made in the USA, the pricing is per sheet, and pricing is also tiered - so if you're a small company and you only produce one sheet of a large die or set, the per-piece pricing will be much higher than a large company that's able to start with a larger initial order.
This is the same with stamps. I was making and selling stamps on a scrapping board for a couple of years. You get a bit of a discount the more you order. Mine did not have labels on them (only the samples came that way) because the cost of having them cut and labeled by the stamp company added several dollars per set even though they are manufactured in sheets. Basically it doubled the cost. So I would order x number of sheets and cut the sets apart myself with a trimmer. Then I used small shipping labels and my printer to print a small identifying label for the stamp set that I adhered to the top sheet.
frugal scrapper is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 07:25 AM   #12
Gallery Gazer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: KS. (the official middle of nowhere)
Posts: 6,253
Default

I haven't seen this mentioned, but for a large well known "party plan" stamping catalog- you are also paying for a middleman (your demo). I find said company's prices run from high to outrageous ($27 for a set of photopolymer stamps?). Any company that sells through party plans with demonstrators has high prices- like the behemoth plastic bowl company and the well known cookware & gadget company. While I get that it gives us access to a demonstrator, it also hikes the prices a lot. (I used to go to a chain restaurant supply back in Michigan and buy gadgets at a fraction of what the catalog/party plan company sold them for, and it would be the exact same thing, just WAY cheaper.
__________________
"I'm NOT a hoarder, I'm just REALLY GOOD at finding bargains!"

Cards request for Al:
https://www.splitcoaststampers.com/f...l#post21294892
contrapat is online now  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Scrapjanny likes this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 08:22 AM   #13
Insane Embellisher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: California
Posts: 753
Default

I get the labor explanations for Chinese dies and paying the designers. I think those are valid points. I guess I don’t understand why, for example, Papertrey Ink dies are made in the US and are pretty reasonable. Even when they were making large solid dies before they switched over to mostly frame type see through dies they were reasonable. Altenew dies are mostly made in China, are see through, and are very expensive. One set I wanted although large, was 50. I wrote an email questioning it and was told that some of their dies are made in the US and some in China. I have yet to receive a die from them that was made in the US and I have a dozen sets. The problem is I love their stamps and dies above all others. I guess they have figured that out.
__________________
Mary

Last edited by maryalena; 04-03-2018 at 08:29 AM..
maryalena is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 10:35 AM   #14
Insane Embellisher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: California
Posts: 753
Default

Well I guess I have to backtrack a little. I went and bought an Altenew bundle set for $21. Pretty good. The four year anniversary hop nailed me. I also earned reward points and had a discount coupon from my last order. Nobody forced me to buy this. I’m going to enjoy the heck out of it.
__________________
Mary
maryalena is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 10:41 AM   #15
Kookie Creator
 
Catherine773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
Posts: 487
Default

A lot of good points. I think the post right before mine is more geared toward my question. I wasn't thinking about costs of made in America vs. China or comparing with companies with independent consultants as middle men.

The stamp sets themselves, for example Hero Arts, the stamp set costs the same as it did before we had this massive (and amazing) surge of dies that coordinate from all the big names. So all the designers were paid for their work on the stamps.

What is the massive cost of matching dies that cut the outline of images? (I realize there exists much more elaborate dies that are made completely independent of stamp sets, those dies needed to be created and designed and people should and need to be paid.... just as if they were designing a stamp set...)

And I totally agree with the post about demand. I know if we continue to pay $29.95 for dies that match a $16 stamp set, they will continue to sell them. And I know personally, I will still buy them for sets I love. And aside from demand - and I can now understand from a sheeting perspective for smaller companies - why these are so expensive when you buy less. Just over-all, it's just a big jump in cost from stamps vs. their matching dies that just perplexes me.

I think though - I'm looking at this on way too small of scale. Because it's a hobby of mine I'm wanting to save money or justify the cost of how I spend it. Things all over cost more than they could. It doesn't really make sense that it would be different in the world of crafting. I think I just really wish they cost less

Last edited by Catherine773; 04-03-2018 at 11:07 AM..
Catherine773 is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
shazsilverwolf and maryalena like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 12:44 PM   #16
Insane Embellisher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: California
Posts: 753
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine773 View Post
A lot of good points. I think the post right before mine is more geared toward my question. I wasn't thinking about costs of made in America vs. China or comparing with companies with independent consultants as middle men.

The stamp sets themselves, for example Hero Arts, the stamp set costs the same as it did before we had this massive (and amazing) surge of dies that coordinate from all the big names. So all the designers were paid for their work on the stamps.

What is the massive cost of matching dies that cut the outline of images? (I realize there exists much more elaborate dies that are made completely independent of stamp sets, those dies needed to be created and designed and people should and need to be paid.... just as if they were designing a stamp set...)

Very good points.

And I totally agree with the post about demand. I know if we continue to pay $29.95 for dies that match a $16 stamp set, they will continue to sell them. And I know personally, I will still buy them for sets I love. And aside from demand - and I can now understand from a sheeting perspective for smaller companies - why these are so expensive when you buy less. Just over-all, it's just a big jump in cost from stamps vs. their matching dies that just perplexes me.

I think though - I'm looking at this on way too small of scale. Because it's a hobby of mine I'm wanting to save money or justify the cost of how I spend it. Things all over cost more than they could. It doesn't really make sense that it would be different in the world of crafting. I think I just really wish they cost less
Very good points. The cost for a set of outline dies that exactly match a stamp image vs the design cost of a stand alone die, and especially one that is intricate, is puzzling. I still balk at the 50. matching set dies. I sort of regret buying a stamp set for one of those. In this case not having the die set has been limiting. The war within still wages. That die set is on my Christmas wishlist.
__________________
Mary
maryalena is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Catherine773 likes this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 08:59 PM   #17
Die Cut Diva
 
lylacfey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,225
Default

As an artist I can say even branded you get paid pennies, especially if you are associated with the company. Unless you are Tim most artists are receiving less than 25% and the rest goes to the company. The best thing about being associated with a company is that you have more legal rights to protect your intellectual property.

Right now I have several "Planner" sticker sellers on Etsy selling my designs as their own property. Least I have my company that has my licensing helping me with the legalities of this nightmare. It is worth the loss of money to have this. I would not have this if I was freelance. I do freelance too.

As a freelancer you do get paid more but have to fight harder and work more independently to protect your legal rights.

No, I don't like to pay the price for celebrity branded dies or celebrity branded anything. I do think dies are crazy expensive especially since some of them cut terribly and not worth the metal they wasted on it. I do buy China dies because it gives me a chance to try things and then invest in higher quality and more expensive dies.

It is terrible conundrum to go through as consumers who want to support artists.
__________________
DeeAnn

http://www.pinterest.com/faerydreams
lylacfey is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2018, 01:36 AM   #18
Insane Embellisher
 
Savagetwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bronx
Posts: 906
Default Wow! Great discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylacfey View Post
As an artist I can say even branded you get paid pennies, especially if you are associated with the company. Unless you are Tim most artists are receiving less than 25% and the rest goes to the company. The best thing about being associated with a company is that you have more legal rights to protect your intellectual property.

Right now I have several "Planner" sticker sellers on Etsy selling my designs as their own property. Least I have my company that has my licensing helping me with the legalities of this nightmare. It is worth the loss of money to have this. I would not have this if I was freelance. I do freelance too.

As a freelancer you do get paid more but have to fight harder and work more independently to protect your legal rights.

No, I don't like to pay the price for celebrity branded dies or celebrity branded anything. I do think dies are crazy expensive especially since some of them cut terribly and not worth the metal they wasted on it. I do buy China dies because it gives me a chance to try things and then invest in higher quality and more expensive dies.

It is terrible conundrum to go through as consumers who want to support artists.
Very well said. You and Dina and others bring up valuable points for us the consumer. I would say that we cannot solve this issue other than not buy the product if too expensive. I notice some Sizzix dies become failures even with Tim's name on it. They disappear because they are unpopular and people just won't buy them. I absolutely adore Tim and know that he stands by the workmanship of items with his name on it. He has to protect his brand as he has loyal followers. But we are not all rich. So, be discerning. Never have buyer's remorse. lol. Most of my life, most things manufactured comes from China. It was cheaper to have things made outside of America. So many companies went under. Madame Alexander Doll Company closed their plant in Harlem and has been having substandard dolls made in China. Their dolls made from mid 1990's are not considered collectibles. Won't be buying them. This outsourcing got more and more complex and it won't stop. Got out of hand decades ago.
But we can sure support made in America products when possible and the individual artists no matter where they come from, whose time and creativity come to life and must be paid for. Lots to think about.
__________________
Rosetta
My Emerging Gallery
Baby Savage Twins
Savagetwin is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
RenT and whim6915 like this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2018, 05:27 AM   #19
Rubber Obsessor
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 119
Default

I don't have a whole lot of dies that match stamps. There's some I bought that came together as a set like Hero Arts Merry, Joy, etc. but those are also stand-alone dies and don't have to cut out a stamp. Some I got cheap through Michaels, either their brand or I think Stampendous. The only ones I can think of I specifically bought the separately-sold die for are a couple of small LF sets like hedgehogs and elephants. 1. I can't bring myself to pay that much for a matching die and I could use that money on more items that can be used stand-alone and 2. if I really want something die cut I can fussy-cut it and I don't have to have a border around it. (I don't fussy cut often though.)

What I find kind of funny is some time back people were moving away from stickers with white borders. They didn't like the white borders. Then cardstock stickers were coming into fashion and chipboard stickers. A lot have white borders. And people were eating up the stamps with matching dies - which leave a border. I still don't think it's a very good look. LOL
frugal scrapper is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2018, 07:37 PM   #20
Proud Fan Club Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 10,214
Default

This wont be a surprise to anyone coming from me...
This is exactly why I wait for product to go on sale. I have to wait to get it, but that's ok...I always have stuff I haven't used yet. You can save good money that way as well as avoid impulse buying- not great with expensive dies. I often see the die side on clearance-like the stamps are done and they get left with the dies.

(which is true of everything I buy-it is the same thing as going to the clearance racks in a clothing store.) Shaz-I have to say, for the most part, I stay very far from cookware with a chef name on it. Not just bc it is expensive, but often isnt good quality.

I am wondering what the tariff on steel will mean...someone on tv said it would be only pennies for canned stuff so maybe nothing noticeable.
wavejumper is online now  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Catherine773 likes this post.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2018, 04:54 AM   #21
Inking Addict
 
WyomingRobin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 95
Default

I kept debating getting a brother cut and scan because I have arthritis and hate fussy cutting, and always bought dies if they were available (in fact, I often would not buy a stamp set that didn't have dies available). A while back I realized that I could have bought the machine several times over! So I asked for it for my birthday and got it.

For generic dies, like stitched rectangles or circles, etc., I buy the unbranded dies. They cut fine and are literally less than $4 for a set of 8. I figure that's not copyright infringement because you can't copyright a shape.

I think die manufacturers are pricing themselves out of the competition. If I am looking for a stamp set for a particular occasion I consider whether it will work with the Scan and Cut, or what the price of the dies are before buying. It feels like some of the big companies forget that people have choices and budgets...
WyomingRobin is offline  
Tweet this Post! Share on Facebook Reddit!! Pin on Pinterest! Share on Google+!
Cinnistew and lehcarlies like this post.
Reply With Quote
Reply





Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off