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Old 09-04-2009, 10:32 AM   #961
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Do other stamping companies such as Close to my heart and The Angel Company also have these regulations on their demonstrators. Just curious.

thanks, Kathy
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:32 AM   #962
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No, I don't think there are any legal issues/problems with the contract as written and neither did the labor/employment attorney who I discussed this with.

Many companies place restictions on the "off time" activiteis of those who represent the company. In my opinion, what it all boils down to is are you willing to abide by the restrictions the company wants to place. If the answer is yes, then there is no problems/issues with being associated with the company. If the answer is no, then you should choose not to associate with the company. I would also add, that what is acceptable for some is not acceptable for all and that is ok.

My two issues with this thread are:

1. I really can't understand the "general public's" interest in what is essentially a contract issue between a company and it's representatives. JMHO, but my thoughts notheless. Does if matter to me what restrictions Coke puts to its employees...lI can say with 100% conviction NO. Those restrictions have no impact on my decision to buy Diet Coke.

2. I am bothered by the minority of posters here that seem to suggest that because I have chosen to accept the new IDA that I have "sold out" given up all of my personal freedoms, am a blind lemming, etc.

I am an intelligent businesswomen. I, of course, read the contract before deciding to sign the same, I fully understand the legal ramifacations and I am willing to accept those in order to remain a SU demonstrator.
I can speak with confidence that everybody here appreciates your legal expertise with this issue and your help in answering a question that most of us have which is, and what I personally don't get, is how can a company that you independently contract with dictate what SU is now making their IDA? I don't see how it's legal for a company to impose upon personal rights and activities 24/7. It's akin to SU legally owning me as a person or having custody of me dictating my every move, down to personal e-mail and website that I pay for. What case law is there to substantiate this or precedent ruling?

I sold my company to a competitor in 2003 and was a 1099 employer. I'm well aware of the IRS rules in that aspect. I had several of my gals work for other competing companies on the side as well for extra money. Just as long as they met my promised turnaround time to my clients and met my QA criteria outlined in our contract, what they do outside of me is none of my business and I didn't have the authority or could legally dictate to them. No company can prevent somebody from making an income by a contract.

SU really needs to address those issues rather than with the vagueness that they are now because they're really not giving any answers to the hard stuff.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:34 AM   #963
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I left for a spell to take my daily walk with my pooch - waited a bit too long as it was 91 degrees and now both of us are hot and sweaty. One of the things that walking every day does is allow me to think about things in the quiet of my own thoughts, hash things around without distractions.

Today my thoughts were on this topic. A crack has formed between many, demo and customer alike, that Sticky Strip, Scor-Tape, Mono Multi, etc. will not be able to repair, or it's a temporary fix and life will go on but with a residue left behind. For others, this new agreement is another wooden block for them be able to build their business even better and stronger. It's up to each person to decide what is best for them and to be respected for it.

Then I ventured into this topic; If the rumor I heard is correct and all these new changes have been formulated since an Artisan Award gathering at convention in July, then this really was a knee jerk reaction to a problem and maybe not thought through as completely as it could have/should have been before they went public with it. Maybe they wanted it to coincide with the end of a business quarter, who knows?

And finally, my thoughts turned to demo only forums, general forums, combining all together, et all. If the demo forums are a valuable resource for an SU! demo, then maybe there ought to be an associated demo forum annual membership for the exclusivity of having their own forum. After all, Member companies do pay to have their own forum, Fan Club member do pay to see a special gallery, but by and large, many come here for free. If there is 10% Fan Club participation I would be very surprised. I'd be pleasantly surprised and happy for SCS if there was more than this amount, but not being in the know, I have no idea. I do know that if you want to play golf at that private club, there is a club fee to do so, same with the tennis club, swim club, etc. Exceptions would be to demos who put on an SCS hat while they are here, like Belinda, for example, who is not only a demo but a mod here, as well.

Anyways, these were my thoughts. Now it's time to go and revisit my vacation last week to Catalina Island and start making our vacation scrapbook.

Enjoy this wonderful weekend ahead!
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1. This is point I have been trying to make in several replys. The decision that is right for you does not have to right for me.

2. According to the webinar with Shelli, the changes in the IDA have been with the attorneys, corporate big wigs, etc. since spring (April/May, if I remember correctly) so I don't think that this a knee jerk reaction.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:40 AM   #964
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Seriously??? Having demo only forums isn't about not hearing customers. It's about having a spot where we can go and talk to each other as business women. We can make plans for the new catalog, talk about info from SU that customers aren't supposed to hear about yet because of marketing strategy, etc. We can problem solve issues we are having with our business, and some pump up each other about earning cruise. Some people choose not to visit the general forums for a variety of reasons, and one of those reasons is the general negativity in many SU threads in this forum.
IMO, SU should be providing this service, not SCS. Yes, there are some negative threads about SU in the general forums but I see just as many (probably more) positive threads from those who love SU and its products. As a former demo, I can attest to the fact that there are many negative threads in the demo forum also.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:41 AM   #965
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I can speak with confidence that everybody here appreciates your legal expertise with this issue and your help in answering a question that most of us have which is, and what I personally don't get, is how can a company that you independently contract with dictate what SU is now making their IDA? I don't see how it's legal for a company to impose upon personal rights and activities 24/7. It's akin to SU legally owning me as a person or having custody of me dictating my every move, down to personal e-mail and website that I pay for. What case law is there to substantiate this or precedent ruling?

I sold my company to a competitor in 2003 and was a 1099 employer. I'm well aware of the IRS rules in that aspect. I had several of my gals work for other competing companies on the side as well for extra money. Just as long as they met my promised turnaround time to my clients and met my QA criteria outlined in our contract, what they do outside of me is none of my business and I didn't have the authority or could legally dictate to them. No company can prevent somebody from making an income by a contract.

SU really needs to address those issues rather than with the vagueness that they are now because they're really not giving any answers to the hard stuff.
While I love to try to address your legal concerns, ethically it would just not be right for me to do so in this manner. I am honestly trying not be catty, but such a decision is just beyond the scope of this media. On the other hand, if you have real concerns my LEGAL advise to you would be for you to take a copy of the contract to a qualified attorney of your choosing and have him/her review the same and answer your questions.

BTW, I really hope that this response does not sound snotty/catty. I'm really not trying to be, but I am well aware that the written word does not always carry tone and emotion very well.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:44 AM   #966
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Seriously??? Having demo only forums isn't about not hearing customers. It's about having a spot where we can go and talk to each other as business women. We can make plans for the new catalog, talk about info from SU that customers aren't supposed to hear about yet because of marketing strategy, etc. We can problem solve issues we are having with our business, and some pump up each other about earning cruise. Some people choose not to visit the general forums for a variety of reasons, and one of those reasons is the general negativity in many SU threads in this forum.
IMO, SU should be providing this service, not SCS. Yes, there are some negative threads about SU in the general forums but I see just as many (probably more) positive threads from those who love SU and its products. As a former demo, I can attest to the fact that there are many negative threads in the demo forum also.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:45 AM   #967
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I can speak with confidence that everybody here appreciates your legal expertise with this issue and your help in answering a question that most of us have which is, and what I personally don't get, is how can a company that you independently contract with dictate what SU is now making their IDA? I don't see how it's legal for a company to impose upon personal rights and activities 24/7. It's akin to SU legally owning me as a person or having custody of me dictating my every move, down to personal e-mail and website that I pay for. What case law is there to substantiate this or precedent ruling?

I sold my company to a competitor in 2003 and was a 1099 employer. I'm well aware of the IRS rules in that aspect. I had several of my gals work for other competing companies on the side as well for extra money. Just as long as they met my promised turnaround time to my clients and met my QA criteria outlined in our contract, what they do outside of me is none of my business and I didn't have the authority or could legally dictate to them. No company can prevent somebody from making an income by a contract.

SU really needs to address those issues rather than with the vagueness that they are now because they're really not giving any answers to the hard stuff.
OOPS, DOUBLE POST, SORRY
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:46 AM   #968
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Do other stamping companies such as Close to my heart and The Angel Company also have these regulations on their demonstrators. Just curious.

thanks, Kathy
I signed an agreement with TAC with pretty standard guidelines, such as not selling for a competing company, which when you stop to think about it, is done passively when you link to other stamping companies and products in a public place such as a blog.

We recently had restrictions put in place on what we should and shouldn't do on blogs which are similar to the intent of SU i.e. don't actively promote other products, which many demos got around by having two blogs and TAC is fine with that. They are also fine with you being on a DT, but all the work you did for that team has to be kept separate (thus the two blogs).

Our regulations are not nearly as restrictive, but TAC is not nearly as big a company as SU.

I'm sure if I've missed anything one of our other Angels will set me straight I think it's fair to say at least a few of this are watching the drama unfold with sympathy since our company went through some pretty drastic changes recently too. These are tough times for everyone.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:47 AM   #969
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Yikes, what an uproar this announcement has caused!

I'm staying out of this one since I am neither an SU demo or a lover of SU products. that being said, let me just suffice it to say "MOVE OVER, SU" you've got lots of other fabulous stamp companies out there was an equally impressive product line and lower prices.

SU reigned for such a long time until the competition began to surface. Competition is good; too bad they dont see it as such.

As a business owner, I have to tell I would not at all be akin to having any of my staff out there doing things contrary to growing mine and their business while they're on the clock, so to speak. However, since most demos are PT, as an independent contractor, everyone should have the right to explore things outside the realm of their position.

Get a grip, SU and move on!
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:51 AM   #970
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Yes - Employers tell employees what they can do in their off time all the time. However, demos are independent contractors and aren't covered by employer/employee laws.
Personally, I am concerned with company/labor relations and have been for many years so if I see something that I perceive to be overstepping in favor of corporations it does concern me.
Bingo, this is exactly correct, but do you think that independent contractors don't have rules they have to follow also? BECAUSE demos are independent contractors, and because we signed their agreement to be exclusive ones to sell their product, according to the agreement, we ARE demos 24/7.

We have the right to sell in the middle of the night if we want. Every demo uses different hours to work their business. I think many demos do a lot of their emailing late at night. How is SU supposed to differentiate which demo is doing what hours? The whole point is when we signed the contract to become a demo for SU, we actually are available to be a demo 24/7. The employee is only an employee the hours that he/she is at that place of business.

Every type of business has some sort of rules to follow. Fortunately, we ALL have the freedom to accept or reject those rules.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:00 AM   #971
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While I love to try to address your legal concerns, ethically it would just not be right for me to do so in this manner. I am honestly trying not be catty, but such a decision is just beyond the scope of this media. On the other hand, if you have real concerns my LEGAL advise to you would be for you to take a copy of the contract to a qualified attorney of your choosing and have him/her review the same and answer your questions.

BTW, I really hope that this response does not sound snotty/catty. I'm really not trying to be, but I am well aware that the written word does not always carry tone and emotion very well.
It's okay and I know you were being helpful and sincere. I also can certainly understand your ethic concerns in being asked what I did and I do apologize for putting you on the spot like that.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:00 AM   #972
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Bingo, this is exactly correct, but do you think that independent contractors don't have rules they have to follow also? BECAUSE demos are independent contractors, and because we signed their agreement to be exclusive ones to sell their product, according to the agreement, we ARE demos 24/7.

We have the right to sell in the middle of the night if we want. Every demo uses different hours to work their business. I think many demos do a lot of their emailing late at night. How is SU supposed to differentiate which demo is doing what hours? The whole point is when we signed the contract to become a demo for SU, we actually are available to be a demo 24/7. The employee is only an employee the hours that he/she is at that place of business.

Every type of business has some sort of rules to follow. Fortunately, we ALL have the freedom to accept or reject those rules.
Actually, most independent contractors do not have these kinds of rules to follow. That is precisely what differentiates them from employees in the eyes of the IRS. Control on the activities of a contractor is a major deciding factor on whether a person is an employee of a company. If a company controls what you do, when and how you do it, you are an employee in the eyes of the IRS, not an independent contractor.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:03 AM   #973
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Quote"IMO, SU should be providing this service, not SCS. Yes, there are some negative threads about SU in the general forums but I see just as many (probably more) positive threads from those who love SU and its products. As a former demo, I can attest to the fact that there are many negative threads in the demo forum also."

HMMM, wasn't Splitcoast Stampers originally started as a demo support site by a DEMO?
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:03 AM   #974
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I signed an agreement with TAC with pretty standard guidelines, such as not selling for a competing company, which when you stop to think about it, is done passively when you link to other stamping companies and products in a public place such as a blog.

We recently had restrictions put in place on what we should and shouldn't do on blogs which are similar to the intent of SU i.e. don't actively promote other products, which many demos got around by having two blogs and TAC is fine with that. They are also fine with you being on a DT, but all the work you did for that team has to be kept separate (thus the two blogs).

Our regulations are not nearly as restrictive, but TAC is not nearly as big a company as SU.

I'm sure if I've missed anything one of our other Angels will set me straight I think it's fair to say at least a few of this are watching the drama unfold with sympathy since our company went through some pretty drastic changes recently too. These are tough times for everyone.
These policies seem a lot more fair for everyone involved. I don't see a problem with separating work with personal/hobby. If someone didn't like to papercraft, they would not even consider being a demo. I can see having a specific blog/website for the company one is working for and promote only that product while having a separate one that is completely hobby, and giving recognition for everything used. I personally don't think that crosses any lines. That's my opinion, just keeping business business, and personal/hobby just that.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:07 AM   #975
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Reading all of this makes me glad that I sell for CTMH and not SU. They don't restrict us to the point where we can't be "friends" (blog, facebook, etc) with someone if they sell for another company.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:10 AM   #976
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It's okay and I know you were being helpful and sincere. I also can certainly understand your ethic concerns in being asked what I did and I do apologize for putting you on the spot like that.
No problem. On the other hand, if you do want a legal brief on the issue, I would be happy to prepare one for you. My hourly rate is $210- should I send you my address for the check? LOL
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:11 AM   #977
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Actually, most independent contractors do not have these kinds of rules to follow. That is precisely what differentiates them from employees in the eyes of the IRS. Control on the activities of a contractor is a major deciding factor on whether a person is an employee of a company. If a company controls what you do, when and how you do it, you are an employee in the eyes of the IRS, not an independent contractor.
Therein lies the difference on how we see this matter..........................

I personally (Nor many other demos) do not see the IDA as controlling me. I see it as giving me rules and guidelines to follow. IF they were implementing sources to police each of us to see that we did follow these rules and guidelines, then yes, that would be controlling me. But they are asking us to give them our "word" by signing the new IDA that we accept and follow the rules. From that point, they are counting on our integrity and honor to follow what we said we agreed to....
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:13 AM   #978
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Kay in FL, I just sent you a pm

Thanks!
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:14 AM   #979
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Yikes, what an uproar this announcement has caused!

I'm staying out of this one since I am neither an SU demo or a lover of SU products. that being said, let me just suffice it to say "MOVE OVER, SU" you've got lots of other fabulous stamp companies out there was an equally impressive product line and lower prices.

SU reigned for such a long time until the competition began to surface. Competition is good; too bad they dont see it as such.

As a business owner, I have to tell I would not at all be akin to having any of my staff out there doing things contrary to growing mine and their business while they're on the clock, so to speak. However, since most demos are PT, as an independent contractor, everyone should have the right to explore things outside the realm of their position.

Get a grip, SU and move on!
What SU offers, that other stamp companies (except TAC, CTMH and a few others) don't, is the open ability to be a direct representative for the company. Over the 20 years that SU has been in business, they have given tens of thousands of women the ability to own their own business without the tens of thousands of dollars that a startup normally incurs. They have also given their demonstrators a way to grow in a way that each one needs. Many demonstrators will tell you this is a gift in and of itself - business or hobby.

Do some join "just" for the discount? Sure.

Do many grow and move on? Absolutely.

I believe that yes, there are many "fabulous stamp companies out there (with) an equally impressive product line and lower prices", but they are missing what SU (and a few others) do so well and that is giving women an opportunity to build a business in a way that works for them - be it hobby or business.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:26 AM   #980
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HMMM, wasn't Splitcoast Stampers originally started as a demo support site by a DEMO?
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:29 AM   #981
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Therein lies the difference on how we see this matter..........................

I personally (Nor many other demos) do not see the IDA as controlling me. I see it as giving me rules and guidelines to follow. IF they were implementing sources to police each of us to see that we did follow these rules and guidelines, then yes, that would be controlling me. But they are asking us to give them our "word" by signing the new IDA that we accept and follow the rules. From that point, they are counting on our integrity and honor to follow what we said we agreed to....
Yes, I think this is where we do disagree, and this is where I am confused on your viewpoint and really am trying to understand. If I give my word that I will not do something, whether it is going to be policed or not is irrelevant. If I give my word, then SU have every right to expect me to follow that without having to police me. So, just by having me give my word, they are controling how I act. This means, if I have a non-SU business website that is not in competition with SU, and has no connection to me as an SU demo, they are asking me to give my word to not provide a link to Joann's for fabric because they are a competitor of SU. That is exerting control.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:35 AM   #982
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Quote"IMO, SU should be providing this service, not SCS. Yes, there are some negative threads about SU in the general forums but I see just as many (probably more) positive threads from those who love SU and its products. As a former demo, I can attest to the fact that there are many negative threads in the demo forum also."

HMMM, wasn't Splitcoast Stampers originally started as a demo support site by a DEMO?
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Yes, and thank you for emphasizing my point. SU should have been providing this service for demos years ago. Instead, they let SCS do it and now it's come back to bite them. I used to be a demo and started coming here for business support and inspiration because what SU offered was inferior to what was offered here. But I also found all these other wonderful companies and products. Now that SCS has evolved and has member companies, it is a different world and many, like me, have been lured away.

SU has wonderful products but has made some bad business decisions, IMO. If they want to encourage demo loyalty and hard work, they should provide better products, service, demo support and demo compensation instead of trying to "leash" them. I really think it will backfire. Just my humble opinion, for what it's worth.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:38 AM   #983
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IMO, SU should be providing this service, not SCS. Yes, there are some negative threads about SU in the general forums but I see just as many (probably more) positive threads from those who love SU and its products. As a former demo, I can attest to the fact that there are many negative threads in the demo forum also.
SU does provide them. We come here since there is also a gallery, etc. Most of us also like to see ideas from customers, other stamp companies, etc.

SCS started the demo forum so the owner's downline would have a place. Once they expanded beyond that original concept it was opened up to all demos. I belive the demo forums are kept as part of the site because they bring traffic here, plain and simple. It's a business decision (and I'm fine with that, btw). SCS is not keep a demo side to help SU or even the demos. SCS has kept it because it helped SCS.

As I said in a previous post, the entertainment, current events, family matters, etc. are there because they keep people on this site instead sending them off to drive up traffic somewhere else.

SCS is like one stop shopping and I'm sure that's why they were able to sell the site.
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:41 AM   #984
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Kay in FL, I just sent you a pm

Thanks!
Sent you an answer - hope it helps!
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:52 AM   #985
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It sure was, but back then, there wasn't member stamp companies either!! So, its not just SU exclusive anymore.
I understand that and I'm glad the other crafting companies were invited to be member companies. I am just saying that suggesting that SU demos go somewhere else is kind of ironic!
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:59 AM   #986
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Sent you an answer - hope it helps!
Thank you. Just PM'd you back
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:02 PM   #987
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No, I don't think there are any legal issues/problems with the contract as written and neither did the labor/employment attorney who I discussed this with.

Many companies place restictions on the "off time" activiteis of those who represent the company. In my opinion, what it all boils down to is are you willing to abide by the restrictions the company wants to place. If the answer is yes, then there is no problems/issues with being associated with the company. If the answer is no, then you should choose not to associate with the company. I would also add, that what is acceptable for some is not acceptable for all and that is ok.

My two issues with this thread are:

1. I really can't understand the "general public's" interest in what is essentially a contract issue between a company and it's representatives. JMHO, but my thoughts notheless. Does if matter to me what restrictions Coke puts to its employees...lI can say with 100% conviction NO. Those restrictions have no impact on my decision to buy Diet Coke.
I can completely understand the general public interest in contract issues.
These issues, notwithstanding SU, are media magnets.
I'm certain that all of us have heard about Wal-Mart's issues, UPS strikes,
and many others.
If these things weren't made public (thank you JoanB) then how can we be an informed buying public.
I use my money all the time in a way of showing protest on certain issues and will continue to do so.

The one thing I don't understand is why demos don't use the Stampin Discuss forums as much as they do SCS.
Do they feel they can say what they want on SCS without fear of repercussion.
When this issue started the other day, this forum alone was in the hundreds of responses, while there was hardly a word on the Stampin Discuss.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:07 PM   #988
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I understand that and I'm glad the other crafting companies were invited to be member companies. I am just saying that suggesting that SU demos go somewhere else is kind of ironic!
So, then in all fairness, there should be separate business side forums for all the other stamping companies here at SCS....IMO.....just sayin. SCS was sold, so its not exclusive to just SU anymore....just saying.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:13 PM   #989
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Question CTMH

Can someone tell me is CTMH has a policy like this? Can I post their products to my blog and give them credit, as well as be on design teams, sell things on my blog, mention other companies on my blog? Maybe I should switch to them.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:17 PM   #990
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Yes, acknowledge that SU demonstrator are independent contractors and that the laws governing independent contractors and employees are different (though from a legal standpoint the same division of our large law firm handles both areas) but there any overlapping and similarities between the two.

As I said, I did review the contract, I did the discuss the terms with another attorney in our firm I did not find anything unlawful/unenforeceable or even legally overreading in the contract.

Are there portions of the contract that some would find objectionable? Well of course there is, otherwise we wouldn't be on page 25 in this thread and who knows what page the thread on the demo side is up to! However, it truly boils down to a personal decision that each current and future demonstrator must make. This company wishes to exert control over an aspect of our communications for the good of the company and we, as intelligent women must decide with those controls/conditions are ones with which we can live and follow. SU is NOT the be all and end all for everyone. I don't honestly think that they want to be, any more than any other large corporation.

Life is full of choices and consequences and we must be willing to accept the consequences of our choices and not necessarily criticize our neighbor because their choices and our choices are polar opposites.
Wow, thanks for this post Colleen.

Very well said

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Old 09-04-2009, 12:21 PM   #991
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Question 2 things I don't understand

There are 2 things I don't understand.
1). When we post a card on our blog that is 80% SU (cardstock, ink, and stamps), and 20% other (Martha Stewart Punch) - do you really feel that is sending a customer to the competition? Yes, she may go and buy the Martha Stewart Punch - but I betcha she continues to buy just as much from SU as before. When I started branching out at Archivers and Michaels...my SU orders did not get smaller. My addiction just increased. I'd like to hear if others spending habits are this way as well.
2) Someone said they think SU is trying to get rid of Hobby Demos because they are tired of us getting the 20% discount, when we aren't really business builders. What I don't "get" about this statement, is what does it matter to SU? If I start buying SU from someone else, if I give up my demo, that person gets a 20% discount as well - so what is the diff?
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:25 PM   #992
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There are 2 things I don't understand.

2) Someone said they think SU is trying to get rid of Hobby Demos because they are tired of us getting the 20% discount, when we aren't really business builders. What I don't "get" about this statement, is what does it matter to SU? If I start buying SU from someone else, if I give up my demo, that person gets a 20% discount as well - so what is the diff?
Think about it though....
If a demo who has a large downline decides to quit. Then SU will make more money. They will not have to pay the uplines the % that they receive on their downlines.
Also, if a demo has a downline, they will receive less money if one of their downlines quit, they will stop receiving a % also.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:28 PM   #993
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actually it does affect more than just demos.
It affects customers who are thinking of becomeing a demo.
it affect design teams.
it affects other comapnies that are not going to get the credit they themselves deserve
it affects customers that follow certain blogs.
it affects family members/friend who are linked to a demos blog

SO you see this is not just a demo issue.
Thank you.... this was part of what trying say!!!!!
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:31 PM   #994
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There are 2 things I don't understand.
1). When we post a card on our blog that is 80% SU (cardstock, ink, and stamps), and 20% other (Martha Stewart Punch) - do you really feel that is sending a customer to the competition? Yes, she may go and buy the Martha Stewart Punch - but I betcha she continues to buy just as much from SU as before. When I started branching out at Archivers and Michaels...my SU orders did not get smaller. My addiction just increased. I'd like to hear if others spending habits are this way as well.
2) Someone said they think SU is trying to get rid of Hobby Demos because they are tired of us getting the 20% discount, when we aren't really business builders. What I don't "get" about this statement, is what does it matter to SU? If I start buying SU from someone else, if I give up my demo, that person gets a 20% discount as well - so what is the diff?
To answer your questions... Q1 - They aren't saying that you can't post a card with a MS Punch on it, or even mention Martha Stewart is the manufacturer (tho they would prefer that you not - just say Snowflake Punch). What they don't want is for you to link to the place that someone could PURCHASE that punch. Mentioning MS as the manufacturer is an incidental/casual mention and is allowed per the IDA. Linking to the site is prohibited.

Q2 - They are not trying to push the hobby demonstrator out. They just don't want said hobby demonstrator to be promoting or marketing other brands. In exchange for the discount and other benefits you receive, they want exclusivity in the products that you market (mind you - I didn't say use or mention).
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:33 PM   #995
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There are 2 things I don't understand.
1). When we post a card on our blog that is 80% SU (cardstock, ink, and stamps), and 20% other (Martha Stewart Punch) - do you really feel that is sending a customer to the competition? Yes, she may go and buy the Martha Stewart Punch - but I betcha she continues to buy just as much from SU as before. When I started branching out at Archivers and Michaels...my SU orders did not get smaller. My addiction just increased. I'd like to hear if others spending habits are this way as well.
2) Someone said they think SU is trying to get rid of Hobby Demos because they are tired of us getting the 20% discount, when we aren't really business builders. What I don't "get" about this statement, is what does it matter to SU? If I start buying SU from someone else, if I give up my demo, that person gets a 20% discount as well - so what is the diff?
just sayin.....IF SU was pushing out the *hobby* demo....as a means of downsizing, per say.....they could cut down on their overhead costs. The *costs* of the free catty that the demo receives.....the *costs* of the mini's that are sent, etc. They could become a leaner and meaner company. Did that make sense??
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:43 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by STAMPINGODDESS
No, I don't think there are any legal issues/problems with the contract as written and neither did the labor/employment attorney who I discussed this with.

Many companies place restictions on the "off time" activiteis of those who represent the company. In my opinion, what it all boils down to is are you willing to abide by the restrictions the company wants to place. If the answer is yes, then there is no problems/issues with being associated with the company. If the answer is no, then you should choose not to associate with the company. I would also add, that what is acceptable for some is not acceptable for all and that is ok.

My two issues with this thread are:

1. I really can't understand the "general public's" interest in what is essentially a contract issue between a company and it's representatives. JMHO, but my thoughts notheless. Does if matter to me what restrictions Coke puts to its employees...lI can say with 100% conviction NO. Those restrictions have no impact on my decision to buy Diet Coke.
I'm glad somebody cleared up the legal issue....I was wondering if it was constitutional or legally binding. Thank you for checking that out. I sincerely appreciate that information.



I really think competition is a good thing.
Ever see a fast food rest. alone? McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, Toco Bell, etc. rarely stand alone because they do more business when customers find them in clusters. I think the same is true for crafting companies.

IMHO, Its an bad business move. Sadly, I have to give up my demo. ...sigh... I won't give up my DT position.

I hope that 25 pages of comments and thousands of views won't equal the kiss of death for SU!

Lots of people are angry. That we can all agree on, right?

I wish SU! well, but in a few years I'll shake my head and say, " Shellie was her own worst enemy and did in her own company"

I wish all of you Demo's the best and hope you don't have to choose.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:50 PM   #997
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I understand that and I'm glad the other crafting companies were invited to be member companies. I am just saying that suggesting that SU demos go somewhere else is kind of ironic!
not really ironic at all. She is saying that if SU! wanted to provide a service for their demos, they should pony up and create their own demo forum instead of depending on a third party to do it for free.

The fact is that SU! knew it was getting the benefit of its demos using SCS for a gallery and a demo forum so they didn't have to invest in building one because they got it for *free* (essentially). Then, other companies came in and started mixing and now they are pouting that their demos have been exposed to the competition, but if they had stepped up and takent he bull by the horns and developed their own forum (like CTMH has done incidentally) they wouldn't have so many others branching in all likelihood..

I found about SCS from my SU! demo, if I hadn't come here I would never had heard of TAC, PTI, Gina K, Scor-pal, etc.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:54 PM   #998
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To answer your questions... Q1 - They aren't saying that you can't post a card with a MS Punch on it, or even mention Martha Stewart is the manufacturer (tho they would prefer that you not - just say Snowflake Punch). What they don't want is for you to link to the place that someone could PURCHASE that punch. Mentioning MS as the manufacturer is an incidental/casual mention and is allowed per the IDA. Linking to the site is prohibited.

Q2 - They are not trying to push the hobby demonstrator out. They just don't want said hobby demonstrator to be promoting or marketing other brands. In exchange for the discount and other benefits you receive, they want exclusivity in the products that you market (mind you - I didn't say use or mention).
Personally, if I am on a blog or other online gallery, and love a card they made....I want to know details. I think encouraging demos to be vague is just strange, to my way of thinking. YES, I understand that it is a business, and they don't want to drive customers AWAY from their product. If I were a demo, I'd rather not list any specific ingredients to a card I posted, than to be super specific about everything SU, and then vague with "off-brand" stuff.
I still think that this a strange overall decision, considering how many people looking at blog-land don't consider themselves to be someone who will only buy SU. If I saw a card I loved, and there was one part of the card I couldn't identify the manufacturer of, because the poster had to leave that area "vague," I certainly wouldn't be thinking, "Well, SU must not make it so I don't need it." And I understand SU doesn't want to lose customers. But do they consider how many times someone has been looking at a card that is 80% not SU products, but the one thing on there that really catches someone's eye is a SU product so they investigate further, and make a purchase. I think that they just want the best of both worlds.....free advertising that helps them, but only them.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:57 PM   #999
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not really ironic at all. She is saying that if SU! wanted to provide a service for their demos, they should pony up and create their own demo forum instead of depending on a third party to do it for free.

The fact is that SU! knew it was getting the benefit of its demos using SCS for a gallery and a demo forum so they didn't have to invest in building one because they got it for *free* (essentially). Then, other companies came in and started mixing and now they are pouting that their demos have been exposed to the competition, but if they had stepped up and takent he bull by the horns and developed their own forum (like CTMH has done incidentally) they wouldn't have so many others branching in all likelihood..

I found about SCS from my SU! demo, if I hadn't come here I would never had heard of TAC, PTI, Gina K, Scor-pal, etc.
Up above I posted an alternative, if the demos want an exclusive forum here at SCS because it's a good business tool for them, as well as a place to interact pretty freely and not be severely moderated like Stampin' Discuss, a place for their own demo challenges and separate galleries, etc. and where they have built friendships that support them in their business, then they should pony up and pay a membership fee for that privilege. Not unlike any other place in the real world where you want exclusivity from the public areas - want to play in a country club instead of the public tennis courts, pay a membership fee, same principle.
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:01 PM   #1000
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Personally, if I am on a blog or other online gallery, and love a card they made....I want to know details. I think encouraging demos to be vague is just strange, to my way of thinking. YES, I understand that it is a business, and they don't want to drive customers AWAY from their product. If I were a demo, I'd rather not list any specific ingredients to a card I posted, than to be super specific about everything SU, and then vague with "off-brand" stuff.
Rebecca - You are right. I said it was their preference, not a mandate. What company wouldn't PREFER people be 100% loyal to them and that their representatives not mention other products? The mandate, however, per the IDA that demonstrators sign and are bound to, is that incidental/casual mentions are fine, linking to competitive products is not.
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