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Old 09-03-2009, 01:57 PM   #681
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So why is everyone still going on about SCS.......SU never once mentioned SCS, never put SCS down, did NOT tell us we couldn't use SCS. There was not one word in IDA about SCS. It is all the poster's imaginings that even brought SCS up.

Yesterday, it was confirmed (because of questions from demos) that SCS is OK to use.
Why do so many think that SU does not appreciate SCS.
I think that's because SU doesn't support SCS by advertising or by becoming a member company. Any ads you see are paid for by independent demos themselves or put on Google by SU. Sure, the $$ may come to SCS, but it's not the same. The member companies invest a lot for their premium spot here, but SU does not. Yet when the Dirty Dozen highlight other products rather than SU, demos complain and withdraw their monetary support from SCS. Leaves me scratching my head most days.

ETA: I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that last part to sound snarky. When I read it back over (after I posted, of course) I realize it could come across that way. I didn't mean to do that, and I apologize.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:11 PM   #682
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What I am still have trouble with is the SU wanting complete control over your electronic communication. There is no leeway to have your fantastic business SU blog AND your fantastic independent this is another aspect of me blog. Many people can do both and do them well and truthfully if I followed and loved an independent blog and saw that they were a demo it would pique my curiosity and I would look at their SU blog - if they were doing equal work it would really turn on my creative wonderment and I would want to buy the stuff no matter the brand to make my stuff look like theirs.

To me SU demo is like wearing a job uniform - you should do your job but you should also be allowed to take off your uniform when you aren't working.
This is EXACTLY what I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around. I'm really trying to see both points of view, but I just can't. To me, a PERSONAL blog is "off the clock." Like has been said before, if SU hosted a blog site, then I can absolutely see them saying SU Only products. Makes perfect sense. But once you "go home for the day" and sit in front of your own PERSONAL blog, you should be able to do what you want!

It's no different than if I worked at McDonald's. Someone comes in and says, "I want a Whopper." I would say, "I'm sorry, we don't serve those here, can I offer you a Big Mac instead?" (Understandable, and expected.) But then AFTER WORK, I decide to go eat at Olive Garden, and I run into an old friend who works at Taco Bell. We get to talking over our pasta about food, and we get to talking about Chinese Food, and I tell them that the Golden Wok has great Mu Shu Pork and it's really cheap. I'm not breaking any rules from McDonald's because I ate at Olive Garden, or told my friend to try the Mu Shu Pork at the Golden Wok!

I think I must be missing the boat, because I don't understand how a Personal Blog (or Facebook, Twitter, etc.) is any of SU's business as long as you were not in the process of trying to sell Stampin Up. If I decide to sell Stampin Up only at Workshops or Clubs and the rest of my time was my own-- Great. I have no problem with demos that don't use other products. But on your "off time?" What does it matter? Because I work at McDonald's means I can only talk about McDonald's food to other people and not Taco Bell? I can't be caught eating at Taco Bell on my lunch break? I can't tell people on my off time that Taco Bell has a great dollar menu? Stampin Up seems to want their demos to be "on the clock" 24-7.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm really trying to understand.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:17 PM   #683
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Belinda you bring up a great point, and I really don't want to get into a legal debate but would just like to point out...there are a few demonstrators who have personal blogs, blogs in which they are not promoting their business or their demonstratorships, perhaps just a blog they enjoy posting their crafting creations. This is a personal blog and although they are Stampin Up demonstrators and they are not promoting themselves according to the legal terms of the IDA this is NOT allowed.

I just think this is wrong...

I am going to answer you and Shannan in the same post, because it is kind of the same point.

I am not going to speak on your specific example, because I have not seen where SU has made that specific distinction, but to my way of thinking If I am representing a company, and they have asked me not to endorse other competing products period, which is what SU is asking, it doesn't matter where I do the endorsing, it is still an endorsement. Personal blogs have a way of going viral, just like you tube videos, so the potential is still there. Twitter and facebook have the same potential. One google search can pull up your personal blog and link you to your SU blog, so it is not like you can do something privately or in a vacuum on the web.

They have mentioned all the scenarios so that as the technology changes and as little issues morph into big issues they have already made it clear to demonstrators that it can become a problem for them. If they are not specific now, we'll be going through this same issue in a year when there is a conflict of interest because of some popular new thing to do on twitter.

The real problem for everyone is that we want to draw some distinction between how hobby demonstrators who are not really that serious about the business aspect of it and love everything craft related and love to share and have fun, see their level of commitment to SU and how those committed to a SU business see their commitment. We all sign the same contract and SU has the right to ask us not to do anything that encourages sales for a competing product, in any forum. They really have expected that all along, they are just trying to clear up the very fuzzy line. When you draw a line, it has to be pretty distinct.

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Old 09-03-2009, 02:18 PM   #684
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I think that's because SU doesn't support SCS by advertising or by becoming a member company. Any ads you see are paid for by independent demos themselves or put on Google by SU. Sure, the $$ may come to SCS, but it's not the same. The member companies invest a lot for their premium spot here, but SU does not. Yet when the Dirty Dozen highlight other products rather than SU, demos complain and withdraw their monetary support from SCS. Leaves me scratching my head most days.

ETA: I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that last part to sound snarky. When I read it back over (after I posted, of course) I realize it could come across that way. I didn't mean to do that, and I apologize.
There was actually a discussion a while back (was it when the Fan Club came to be? Not sure. Anyway...) about why SCS did not solicit financial support directly from SU! to help run the site. The reasoning was that if SU! gave SCS money, then SU! would be entitled to a direct say in how the site was run and the owners wanted to remain independent.

I don't think demos are cancelling their subscriptions simply because other companies' products are being highlighted. I think they're doing it because SU! products show up so infrequently now, that they see little point in continuing with them. One of the tips I've seen given to business-minded demos is to use their online time wisely.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:19 PM   #685
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This is EXACTLY what I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around. I'm really trying to see both points of view, but I just can't. To me, a PERSONAL blog is "off the clock." Like has been said before, if SU hosted a blog site, then I can absolutely see them saying SU Only products. Makes perfect sense. But once you "go home for the day" and sit in front of your own PERSONAL blog, you should be able to do what you want!

It's no different than if I worked at McDonald's. Someone comes in and says, "I want a Whopper." I would say, "I'm sorry, we don't serve those here, can I offer you a Big Mac instead?" (Understandable, and expected.) But then AFTER WORK, I decide to go eat at Olive Garden, and I run into an old friend who works at Taco Bell. We get to talking over our pasta about food, and we get to talking about Chinese Food, and I tell them that the Golden Wok has great Mu Shu Pork and it's really cheap. I'm not breaking any rules from McDonald's because I ate at Olive Garden, or told my friend to try the Mu Shu Pork at the Golden Wok!

I think I must be missing the boat, because I don't understand how a Personal Blog (or Facebook, Twitter, etc.) is any of SU's business as long as you were not in the process of trying to sell Stampin Up. If I decide to sell Stampin Up only at Workshops or Clubs and the rest of my time was my own-- Great. I have no problem with demos that don't use other products. But on your "off time?" What does it matter? Because I work at McDonald's means I can only talk about McDonald's food to other people and not Taco Bell? I can't be caught eating at Taco Bell on my lunch break? I can't tell people on my off time that Taco Bell has a great dollar menu? Stampin Up seems to want their demos to be "on the clock" 24-7.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm really trying to understand.
Well written.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:21 PM   #686
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So why is everyone still going on about SCS.......SU never once mentioned SCS, never put SCS down, did NOT tell us we couldn't use SCS. There was not one word in IDA about SCS. It is all the poster's imaginings that even brought SCS up.

Yesterday, it was confirmed (because of questions from demos) that SCS is OK to use.
Why do so many think that SU does not appreciate SCS.
The reason I mention SCS is because this site is about ALL kinds of stamp art and it is also expected that we give credit where it is due. According to what I've read so far, as long as you are a SU demo, you can't credit any other company that you may want to use, publicly, which is not fair. I am not a demo, but if I was, I certainly wouldn't feel very good about using another company's stamp and not crediting them for it!! So, in short, I would either have to not use other companies products, or not post them here. I don't think THAT is being very supportive of SCS.

And no, they didn't say you couldn't use SCS...you just can't use AND credit anyone elses product on SCS (or any other public forum). I really believe it's too restricting and that SU shouldn't be quite so concerned...I'm sure they're doing just fine...and if they are not, I highly doubt it is because of their demos on-line postings and mentionings of competitors products!

I would also like to say that I admire some of the decisions SU has made regarding their products...I thought they were brilliant in jumping into the die-cutting side of things! It is THIS kind of thing that will keep SU on top...not trying to FORCE loyalty from their demos.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:23 PM   #687
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Hey Tabbygirl.. I was wondering when you would come on and give your view with your legal background...

I just sit here and think and wait and wonder what decision I will make as well..

humph!
Beverly...I was wondering about you and if you would keep up with the demonstratorship or not??? We both love other stamp companies LOL

I guess I might just have to get rid of my blog...between you and me...I dont' think I am going to be buying as much of their product anymore. Instead I am going to use my hobby income to buy stamps from elsewhere... I think I have enough current stamps to keep me going for awhile LOL!!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:32 PM   #688
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There was actually a discussion a while back (was it when the Fan Club came to be? Not sure. Anyway...) about why SCS did not solicit financial support directly from SU! to help run the site. The reasoning was that if SU! gave SCS money, then SU! would be entitled to a direct say in how the site was run and the owners wanted to remain independent.

I don't think demos are cancelling their FC subscriptions simply because other companies' products are being highlighted. I think they're doing it because SU! products show up so infrequently now, that they see little point in paying to view the DD gallery anymore. Can't blame them. If you're a business-minded SU! demo, it's not sound financially to spend your business dollars on memberships that don't support your business, KWIM?
I remember that discussion, and it makes sense (about SU and SCS). It still doesn't stop SU from coming forward to advertise just like any other company. But they don't really have the need, do they? That's the tail that keeps whipping around in this discussion. lol

And I totally agree, I wouldn't spend $$ on memberships that didn't support my business either. I have seen, though, in the past, demos that expect demo forums and swap areas to chat in, new stamp set galleries to be created, tutorials and ideas used for workshops, and on and on....more or less, they feel entitled to things that they then turn around and refuse to pay for. And again, why should they? It was given for free. But it does come at a cost to someone, and right now the companies who are willing to pay are given a bigger spotlight. To quote the great HRR, "There is no free lunch."
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:36 PM   #689
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I am going to answer you and Shannan in the same post, because it is kind of the same point.

I am not going to speak on your specific example, because I have not seen where SU has made that specific distinction, but to my way of thinking If I am representing a company, and they have asked me not to endorse other competing products period, which is what SU is asking, it doesn't matter where I do the endorsing, it is still an endorsement. Personal blogs have a way of going viral, just like you tube videos, so the potential is still there. Twitter and facebook have the same potential. One google search can pull up your personal blog and link you to your SU blog, so it is not like you can do something privately or in a vacuum on the web.

They have mentioned all the scenarios so that as the technology changes and as little issues morph into big issues they have already made it clear to demonstrators that it can become a problem for them. If they are not specific now, we'll be going through this same issue in a year when there is a conflict of interest because of some popular new thing to do on twitter.

The real problem for everyone is that we want to draw some distinction between how hobby demonstrators who are not really that serious about the business aspect of it and love everything craft related and love to share and have fun, see their level of commitment to SU and how those committed to a SU business see their commitment. We all sign the same contract and SU has the right to ask us not to do anything that encourages sales for a competing product, in any forum. They really have expected that all along, they are just trying to clear up the very fuzzy line. When you draw a line, it has to be pretty distinct.

Belinda
Thanks for your post, Belinda. I agree, lines have to be clear. It's just hard to pick out what they're drawing the line ON, kwim? And it seems everyone's interpreting it differently. lol
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:44 PM   #690
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I FEEL YOU ARE CORRECT, KERRI!

Why didn't they just amend this for those demo's that are of a certain 'level' like 'SENIOR SUPERVISOR and above' who are probably the ones really working the business as business?

As another intelligent gal said, "ONE cannot live on SUP alone!" and might I add, at least NOT one who feels they have true artistry and want and NEED to express it. WHY would any artist want to put a limit on themselves? They wouldn't. SUP offers only "SO MUCH" and does not have a vast array of creative-options ENOUGH to expect us to keep to their product ONLY.

Ya follow?

Instead of stifling us and our customers, step up to the plate and offer MORE so we will WANT TO USE ONLY SUP PRODUCTS! When you have covered enough creative-ground and offer a variety of art mediums like alcohol markers like COPIC, glitter glues like Stickles and versatile/stackable/cookie cutter dies like nestibilities (just to name a few), I may re-think using SUP ONLY products but until then........
I just don't understand this.......I too am just a hobby demo.
I will never reach those levels that you are speaking of, because I like right where I am at, but this IDA is not going to be "stifling me or stopping my creativity.

If I felt SU was not offering me enough, I would have left long ago. I nor my customers feel stifled. If my customers felt this way, they would not have stuck with me these past 5 years. I run clubs, I don't do workshops and I don't have a downline.

THEY ARE NOT asking us to JUST use SUO. They are just asking us not to ADVERTISE or direct customers to other products.
How is that stifling you. Go buy all you want, from whomever you want.....they DO NOT care. They just care when you lead customers to another product by talking about it on the world wide web.

I was manager of a hair styling salon for 8 years. When someone hired on, they had to sign an agreement that they would not work at any other salon while working at this salon. (Most all salons doe this) There is a basic form out there for salon business. Now a lot of you could say, but they have no right to tell me what to do when I am not a work. Yes, they do because that is how they want to run their business and you have the choice, the "freedom" to not sign the agreement.

In this same agreement, it also said that "if/when you leave" you cannot take any records of any of the customers that you gave service to. Also, you cannot work at another salon within a 2 mile radius. Every time a stylist left the salon, I heard the same grumble, those rules are so stupid.

But you know what, those very stylist, when they got ready to open up their own business and hire on other stylist, USED THE VERY SAME agreement.
They did this to project their business.

Apples to Oranges, absolutely, but the point is, all business do what they think is best for their business and their employees or anyone who is connected to their business.

As for the demo who is on design teams, I too feel bad for them. But, SU has stated all along that their rules are subject to change. No company is going to write a manual and then state that this is it, there will be no changes, this manual is good for ever and every amen. That in itself would be the worst business move they could make.


Do these agreements make for a perfect world for everyone, no, but it's a whole lot better than if there were no agreement at all.
I'm sure you and all the others have been upset at one time or another about the current items of SU that are being sold on the Ebay. At first SU had no rules governing Ebay sales. When this started happening, they had to come up with rules about it. Still, there are demos who buy the items and give them to friends to sell on Ebay. There will always be someone who can find a way to break the rules or to find a "loophole" to jump through. They usually get away with it too. Sad thing though, what they do always hurts things for the rest even if it is in a very small way.

This is why SU is trying to cover "all" basis. They are NOT going to be out there policing our blogs and our emails. They hope that the intregrity of the demo and some common sense will direct her.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #691
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Thanks for your post, Belinda. I agree, lines have to be clear. It's just hard to pick out what they're drawing the line ON, kwim? And it seems everyone's interpreting it differently. lol
i prefer grey lines myself!

lol! sorry just feeling punchy today!
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:59 PM   #692
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[QUOTE=JenMarie;15046114]Well written.[/QU

agree!!

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Old 09-03-2009, 03:05 PM   #693
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hi all!

i have only read a portion of this thread so i apologize if i say something that was already said but when one of my DT girls contacted me about this because she would have to resign from my team i was initially a bit shocked and felt like most of you.

however i have thought long and hard and tried to figure out what angle SU is working and i think i may have an idea. as a retail store i sign up with various companies to buy products at wholesale prices to turn around and sell in my store. ALL of them have very strict rules about making sure ONLY bonafide retailers buy from them. they DO NOT want your run of the mill crafty folks signing up to buy stuff just to get goodies at a discount. so for example i have minimum totals to meet for each purchase as well as minimums per item as well as having to provide evidenc eof statse sales license, etc. now, i am not sure if SU does the same thing - like requiring all the resale licensing and business license, etc. but to me the *hobby demo* is exactly what every other distributor is dead set against as well. so i think maybe this new IDA is their way of separating the serious ones from the hobby ones so they are back to serious business minded demos. a weird way to go about it but maybe the only way they could think of.

so the rest of us will continue to *advertise* the SU stuff as we buy and use it just like all of us do here that aren't demos. i did not think so at first but i really am not sure it will change a whole lot....we may seem some DT changes though....

anyway i could be way off base and i STILL think the whole policy is a bit ...well....not good but they really may just be trying to cycle out those that are not doing it as a serious business.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:15 PM   #694
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i prefer grey lines myself!

lol! sorry just feeling punchy today!
ROFLMAO You are bad...
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:21 PM   #695
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I think that's because SU doesn't support SCS by advertising or by becoming a member company. Any ads you see are paid for by independent demos themselves or put on Google by SU. Sure, the $$ may come to SCS, but it's not the same. The member companies invest a lot for their premium spot here, but SU does not. Yet when the Dirty Dozen highlight other products rather than SU, demos complain and withdraw their monetary support from SCS. Leaves me scratching my head most days.

ETA: I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that last part to sound snarky. When I read it back over (after I posted, of course) I realize it could come across that way. I didn't mean to do that, and I apologize.
Hey, it did not sound snarky at all.

I'm a demo, a hobby demo. I guess I am just having trouble understanding "why" other hobby demos are so upset with all of this when they say they are hobby just to get the discount. So, they want the discount from SU to get their supplies cheaper, and the hostess benefits that come along with this discounted items, but they don't want SU telling them to not give credit for other products when they show their cards made with non-su products. Now this leave ME scratching my head.

Now, about your comment about SCS highlighting other products and the DEMOS complaining and withdrawing their monetary support..............again, how does this relay back to SU not being supportive of SCS. I'd say the problem there are the demos who complained, wouldn't you?
(I am not being snarky either, honestly, I am just trying to understand)
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:25 PM   #696
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I remember that discussion, and it makes sense (about SU and SCS). It still doesn't stop SU from coming forward to advertise just like any other company. But they don't really have the need, do they? That's the tail that keeps whipping around in this discussion. lol

And I totally agree, I wouldn't spend $$ on memberships that didn't support my business either. I have seen, though, in the past, demos that expect demo forums and swap areas to chat in, new stamp set galleries to be created, tutorials and ideas used for workshops, and on and on....more or less, they feel entitled to things that they then turn around and refuse to pay for. And again, why should they? It was given for free. But it does come at a cost to someone, and right now the companies who are willing to pay are given a bigger spotlight. To quote the great HRR, "There is no free lunch."
That leads me to an interesting thought - should SCS charge demos to be a member of the Demo only Forum? It is a business resource and benefits only a portion of those here. SCS was founded by a SU demo, but isn't it under other ownership now? With this new policy to have demos be more SU exclusive, they may be less interested in the advertising used to run this site, so how is cost of the demo forum supported? Just wondering.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:26 PM   #697
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I was previously a fan of SU! but no more. I've never been a demonstrator so I'm just commenting 'from the sidelines' but I've always questioned their shipping and taxing policies. Once I discovered VERVE stamps and began perusing their galleries I was hooked on Verve and (happily) free of SU. This latest development leaves me shaking my head... apparently SU can't stand the heat in the kitchen (competition).
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:28 PM   #698
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...not a demo...

Some are wondering why some Hobby Demos have a prob w/ the new IDA... It's b/c SU is 'controlling' what they link on their PERSONAL blog, facebook page, etc.....
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:31 PM   #699
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That leads me to an interesting thought - should SCS charge demos to be a member of the Demo only Forum? It is a business resource and benefits only a portion of those here. SCS was founded by a SU demo, but isn't it under other ownership now? With this new policy to have demos be more SU exclusive, they may be less interested in the advertising used to run this site, so how is cost of the demo forum supported? Just wondering.
no, they would be charging all of us non-demo's for the general "side" BECAUSE SCS was originally created for demos... not good for most of us.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:31 PM   #700
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hi all!
i think maybe this new IDA is their way of separating the serious ones from the hobby ones so they are back to serious business minded demos. a weird way to go about it but maybe the only way they could think of.

so the rest of us will continue to *advertise* the SU stuff as we buy and use it just like all of us do here that aren't demos. i did not think so at first but i really am not sure it will change a whole lot....we may seem some DT changes though....

anyway i could be way off base and i STILL think the whole policy is a bit ...well....not good but they really may just be trying to cycle out those that are not doing it as a serious business.
I really don't think SU! is intentionally trying to 'weed out' hobby demo's. I really think SU! just doesn't want its demo's selling promoting other companies. I think it's that simple.

Some blogs that I visit are covered with logo's from various companies. It's almost too much. Having been a demo for 5+ years, I'm pretty sure that that sort of demo who has all of that promotional stuff on their blog is not representing SU! the way that SU! would like to be promoted.

I don't think that SU! is hurting financially or trying take out the competition. I really think that Shelli and the execs at SU have a clear vision of how they want SU to appear in the crafting community. I think that's a good thing.

The demo's who focus solely on SU work very hard to present SU products in a professional manner. I think that's what SU! wants most from its demo's.

I really liked Shelli's analogy of the stagecoach driver. It really explains what SU wants from its demo's. I would want the same from someone representing my company. I don't think it's too much to ask for!

Also, I think that maybe some people might need to evaluate what they want out of their crafting career/experience. Designing, free stamps, selling for an income, cruises, notoriety, etc. You can't have it all. If you can, please tell us all how!
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:38 PM   #701
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That leads me to an interesting thought - should SCS charge demos to be a member of the Demo only Forum? It is a business resource and benefits only a portion of those here. SCS was founded by a SU demo, but isn't it under other ownership now? With this new policy to have demos be more SU exclusive, they may be less interested in the advertising used to run this site, so how is cost of the demo forum supported? Just wondering.
The question I have..."should there really be a demo forum anymore".
Even though the site has maintained the atmosphere we have all enjoyed, they are now part of a larger corporation and thus not really a "demo-run" business anymore. I kinda think they stopped being that when they added member companies...which I love. I feel like the demo forum is really a huge gift to the demos.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:40 PM   #702
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It's no different than if I worked at McDonald's. Someone comes in and says, "I want a Whopper." I would say, "I'm sorry, we don't serve those here, can I offer you a Big Mac instead?" (Understandable, and expected.) But then AFTER WORK, I decide to go eat at Olive Garden, and I run into an old friend who works at Taco Bell. We get to talking over our pasta about food, and we get to talking about Chinese Food, and I tell them that the Golden Wok has great Mu Shu Pork and it's really cheap. I'm not breaking any rules from McDonald's because I ate at Olive Garden, or told my friend to try the Mu Shu Pork at the Golden Wok!

I think I must be missing the boat, because I don't understand how a Personal Blog (or Facebook, Twitter, etc.) is any of SU's business as long as you were not in the process of trying to sell Stampin Up. If I decide to sell Stampin Up only at Workshops or Clubs and the rest of my time was my own-- Great. I have no problem with demos that don't use other products. But on your "off time?" What does it matter? Because I work at McDonald's means I can only talk about McDonald's food to other people and not Taco Bell? I can't be caught eating at Taco Bell on my lunch break? I can't tell people on my off time that Taco Bell has a great dollar menu? Stampin Up seems to want their demos to be "on the clock" 24-7.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm really trying to understand.
You can tell a friend anything you like, or if someone emails you and asks where you bought that taco you can tell them. You just can't go on and on about it on your blog and give links to the closest Taco Bell, etc.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:41 PM   #703
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The question I have..."should there really be a demo forum anymore".
Even though the site has maintained the atmosphere we have all enjoyed, they are now part of a larger corporation and thus not really a "demo-run" business anymore. I kinda think they stopped being that when they added member companies...which I love. I feel like the demo forum is really a huge gift to the demos.
that's a good point too.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:44 PM   #704
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YES! I DO KNOW THAT! All I am saying is that it was just 1 more reason I gave up on SU!

Why don't other companies I deal with do that tax on the shipping thing then? They certainly KNOW nthat I am in NJ! They have the address to shipm me the items!!!!!
From what I was told by my tax man, it's the difference between "shipping" and "shipping and handling". Direct Sales companies like SU and CTMH charge a shipping and handling fee, thus the reason they charge tax because it contains both shipping & handling which states require tax to be charged on. Other internet companies that just charge shipping are not required to charge tax because shipping in itself is not taxed, but shipping and handling is.

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Old 09-03-2009, 03:47 PM   #705
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The question I have..."should there really be a demo forum anymore".
Even though the site has maintained the atmosphere we have all enjoyed, they are now part of a larger corporation and thus not really a "demo-run" business anymore. I kinda think they stopped being that when they added member companies...which I love. I feel like the demo forum is really a huge gift to the demos.
I agree, it is probably time to let the demo forums and demo separate galleries go, time to integrate everyone into this stamping community.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:48 PM   #706
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I remember that discussion, and it makes sense (about SU and SCS). It still doesn't stop SU from coming forward to advertise just like any other company. But they don't really have the need, do they? That's the tail that keeps whipping around in this discussion. lol

And I totally agree, I wouldn't spend $$ on memberships that didn't support my business either. I have seen, though, in the past, demos that expect demo forums and swap areas to chat in, new stamp set galleries to be created, tutorials and ideas used for workshops, and on and on....more or less, they feel entitled to things that they then turn around and refuse to pay for. And again, why should they? It was given for free. But it does come at a cost to someone, and right now the companies who are willing to pay are given a bigger spotlight. To quote the great HRR, "There is no free lunch."
Ok, I just read your post here, but let me ask this. It seems that some are upset that SU does not pay for advertising on SCS. Ok, the companies that DO PAY for it, are they a direct sales company? Do they have 44,00 contracted demos out there advertising for themselves and for SU.
(after all, that IS how SU's business is run) and we knew that when we signed on. So again, it almost sounds like the demo who "only" wants the discount and the freedom to do as they want without out any restrictions from SU. but like your quote of JulieHrr's, there is no free lunch.
I again, am not being snarky, I am just trying to see the whole big picture.

I think of Party Lite, Lea Sophia jewelry, Simply Tasteful, Mary Kay, etc., and I honestly don't think I have ever seen any advertising on the web for them, is that correct? They are putting their money into their consultants, their catalogs, and into their hostess benefits, just like SU does.

Let's be honest girls, the cards on SCS also help us demos too, not just SU.
IF customers are wanting to buy what they see on the cards. I know that is what encourages my club members to buy sets that they have been wondering about. Fortunately for me, my members only want to see suo because that is what I am selling them.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:49 PM   #707
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no, they would be charging all of us non-demo's for the general "side" BECAUSE SCS was originally created for demos... not good for most of us.
The non-demos are more likely to support the advertisers who support SCS thus the general site is funded.
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:55 PM   #708
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I'm sorry Phantom, I never did answer this post, there were just so many going there for a while.

I was laughing because.......I had, just moments before, read in the demo forum that the news was already out in the general forum and there was already a train wreck. (remember this was the day the news "officially" came out).

Almost seems like a life time ago doesn't it?
Oh that is too funny!!! I was worried when I saw this quote again but thanks for clarifying
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:58 PM   #709
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...all demos signed the new IDA? Just imagine the time, money, and resources SU would have to devote to policing every single personal blog, website, social networking site, etc. It would be impossible. Hmmm...maybe all demonstrators should just give SU what SU is asking for: sign the IDA, continue with business as usual in your personal stuff, and then let SU police the web to death.
That would keep some folks very very busy!
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:13 PM   #710
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I want to say also.
There are many demos on SCS I respect. Not only for their talent but their personalities and the way they draw people to themselves and make them feel talented by sharing with all.
When I heard about the policy the other day, I thought it was SU's right to demand what they wanted (whether or not they Should is a different ?).
Then I heard the responses of 11Valerie11 and others, then visited a few blogs of those I truly respect and found some of those women also leaving SU. I was saddened for Beate and Valerie and other that they would be willing to relinquish demo-ship.

I'm sure the train-wreck period will pass, but will the hard feelings?

And what will the fall-out be?

Even though there have been many comments that SU is not in trouble, then why the new policy so soon after a lay-off (the first in comp. history).
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:14 PM   #711
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The question I have..."should there really be a demo forum anymore".
Even though the site has maintained the atmosphere we have all enjoyed, they are now part of a larger corporation and thus not really a "demo-run" business anymore. I kinda think they stopped being that when they added member companies...which I love. I feel like the demo forum is really a huge gift to the demos.
I think that's a very valid question.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:21 PM   #712
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............And no, they didn't say you couldn't use SCS...you just can't use AND credit anyone elses product on SCS (or any other public forum). ...

First, I'd like to know where it says that. I did not see that ANYWHERE. I read that you can certainly participate on general crafting forum sites [eta: Correcting myself:] AND link it on your blog, too (although they would rather you didn't). Please inform me.

Second, JulieHRR, thanks so much for trying to clarify for hotwheels... I tried but I don't think she understood me .

Thirdly, I didn't like any mention of SCS being pulled into this as to how should the respond. But I do find the questions about the demo forum and special treatment interesting. Along with design team members and people who don't want to have to alter their blogging, I feel badly for Daven and the Team because they have good reasons for having favored SU in many ways and I hate to see them get stuck in the middle for all the good they do. Because of all SCS does for me, and for the rest of us, I would not question ANY decision they make in this regard. I'm a proud SCS fan club member and I'm grateful for use of this site. I enjoy the SU galleries and all the rest of it, and I will be very sad if I hear of anyone giving the good people who run SCS a hard time.

And lastly, I was surprised to be away from the computer for a few hours and discover that you all are still plugging away. Let me ask you this: How often do you see a group of people with such different backgrounds and points of view keep on trying to make sense of a situation like this and understand one another better? That's SCS at it's best, folks. Good for you.

Those of us who have been chatting up this (and tangential) topics for a little while here now are all probably a little punchy or feel like being a little snarky now and then. Hopefully we'll all come to our own peace of mind over these issues. I really wish that for everyone. Decisions need to be made on a such a personal level now and some of us may never understand the other points of view. But thank you for trying - I hope the discussions have helped some people sort out how they feel and what they need to do.

.... and now I know that every thread I start does not die an embarrassing and immediate death LOL!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:23 PM   #713
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I want to say also.
There are many demos on SCS I respect. Not only for their talent but their personalities and the way they draw people to themselves and make them feel talented by sharing with all.
When I heard about the policy the other day, I thought it was SU's right to demand what they wanted (whether or not they Should is a different ?).
Then I heard the responses of 11Valerie11 and others, then visited a few blogs of those I truly respect and found some of those women also leaving SU. I was saddened for Beate and Valerie and other that they would be willing to relinquish demo-ship.

I'm sure the train-wreck period will pass, but will the hard feelings?

And what will the fall-out be?

Even though there have been many comments that SU is not in trouble, then why the new policy so soon after a lay-off (the first in comp. history).
I too feel terrible about Beate and Valerie.

Regarding your question about why the new policy so soon after lay-off, I personally don't think the two different issues have anything to do with the other.
Shelli said herself that they have been working on this IDA since last spring.
They did not just come up with the idea and then implement it. They worked with demos, lawyers and consultants long and hard on this.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:27 PM   #714
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I think Lorie good ponit too.... I am looking for good deoms that work me.... But , I has hard time find in my area that like. I am looked for share I deails imagesser and email ect... I am in wheelichar so hard to go workshops. And used my hands ect. I don't have any famly and or family inrested just mom how help me stamps. When she time. She not deoms.... Dose any have thoughts to fix this problems? And is anyone will to my deoms?

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Old 09-03-2009, 04:31 PM   #715
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I am a demo and I do support the other companies on this site, with my hard earned Stampin' up money. I question how many of you that are recommending shuting down the demo forums are current active demos. Just ask the demos if they would like to see this happen.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:41 PM   #716
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As a non demo, simply a fan down here down under, I just wanted to pop in what I understood from all this. SU doesn't have a problem with their demos having blogs. As far as I can see they dont have a problem with their demos using other products either. As long as they aren't selling them, or putting links into their blogs for where people can buy them. Which most of them dont anyway. I have stacks of demos blogs in my favourites, and on the majority, most of them only have SU products in them anyway.

CM has for years stated that their demos are not allowed to use any other products in the albums being shown in their parties. I've never seen a CM blog either come to think of it. SU is simply doing something similar. Your work is an advertisement for their products.

I wonder if the same agreement is down here in Oz.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:42 PM   #717
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[quote=Phantom;15047167]First, I'd like to know where it says that. I did not see that ANYWHERE. I read that you can certainly participate on general crafting forum sites [eta: Correcting myself:] AND link it on your blog, too (although they would rather you didn't). Please inform me.

[quote]Second, JulieHRR, thanks so much for trying to clarify for hotwheels... I tried but I don't think she understood me


I understed but that not what I was asking I was asking.... I was looking for others blogs Us stuff on that were not su Deoms.... Or other websties that Su stamp for others place scs! I hope this sence beacse I am happicapped and don't get out work shops. so computer is rescouces for I deails you see? And deoms not going preson blogs. I am kind of lots you see you! hotwheels

Thirdly, I didn't like any mention of SCS being pulled into this as to how should the respond. But I do find the questions about the demo forum and special treatment interesting. Along with design team members and people who don't want to have to alter their blogging, I feel badly for Daven and the Team because they have good reasons for having favored SU in many ways and I hate to see them get stuck in the middle for all the good they do. Because of all SCS does for me, and for the rest of us, I would not question ANY decision they make in this regard. I'm a proud SCS fan club member and I'm grateful for use of this site. I enjoy the SU galleries and all the rest of it, and I will be very sad if I hear of anyone giving the good people who run SCS a hard time.

And lastly, I was surprised to be away from the computer for a few hours and discover that you all are still plugging away. Let me ask you this: How often do you see a group of people with such different backgrounds and points of view keep on trying to make sense of a situation like this and understand one another better? That's SCS at it's best, folks. Good for you.
and I Agrree with lasted two Statements ALos!!!!!!

Those of us who have been chatting up this (and tangential) topics for a little while here now are all probably a little punchy or feel like being a little snarky now and then. Hopefully we'll all come to our own peace of mind over these issues. I really wish that for everyone. Decisions need to be made on a such a personal level now and some of us may never understand the other points of view. But thank you for trying - I hope the discussions have helped some people sort out how they feel and what they need to do.

.... and now I know that every thread I start does not die an embarrassing and immediate death LOL!!

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Old 09-03-2009, 04:51 PM   #718
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I am a demo and I do support the other companies on this site, with my hard earned Stampin' up money. I question how many of you that are recommending shuting down the demo forums are current active demos. Just ask the demos if they would like to see this happen.
I am, for the time being, an active demo. I support shutting the demo forums down and making the community a whole. Should they want their own forum, then SU! needs to come to the plate with a Membership agreement with SCS. Now, we know that will never happen. By having a Member company forum, it will also cut down on the cattiness by demos in the demo only forums about what those on the "other side" are doing and that they would never post on the "other side" and all that. As it is now, they are protected in the forums because of the exclusivity, they are free to speak in whatever tone they want about customers.

SU! demonstrators need to remember that they do have their own private forum which may be found on the Demonstrator Website. Stampin' Discuss is for all things demonstrator related for SU!
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:53 PM   #719
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Hotwheels, are you looking for blogs or sites that show SU stuff, but not SU demo blogs??

I think there is a list somewhere here on SCS, I can try to find it - some of them will be SU demos though.

Stampin' Up made a comment that sounds like they are going to try to start their own gallery and discussion site (community/forum/etc.) but I don't know if that will be for demos only or not.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:54 PM   #720
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The non-demos are more likely to support the advertisers who support SCS thus the general site is funded.
yeah, I read your post a little wonky at first, lol, hence my answer. I know better than to think, lol.
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