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Old 04-26-2005, 01:35 PM   #1
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Exclamation Stampin Up's copyright policy/angel policy

As a consumer/customer do you know you cannot sell your handstamped items except in the few places that Stampin' Up! dictates??

It's in their "Angel Policy", which should be called their "angle policy", it's an odd way of treating buying customers!

I can see GM or Ford telling you...you can't drive on any roads other than superhighways! Or Sony saying you can't listen to FM stations, ONLY AM stations. Oh, this is AFTER the fact...you've already made the purchase, THEN you find this out! Lovely.

So WHAT are you to do with ALL your swap cardfronts, scrapbook page swaps, etc.? You better have alot of friends and relatives to send them too. because you surely can't SELL them in a PERMANANT location! I suppose you could sell them on the street corner along with the flower sellers and car window washers!

Oh, and don't EVEN think you can build your own personal website and show all your pretty creations and maybe sell a few cards here and there to make up for the money you have spent on STAMPIN' UP! products, and to purchase MORE SU products. That's a BIG no-no too! (Do the powers that be at SU think the INTERNET is a big black bottomless pit that the devil controls?) You say you don't have a money tree out back? Well then move to the side sweetie, only able-bodied and cookie-cutter demos allowed in the Stampin' Up! cult!

Keep an eye out for my BIG list of for sale SU stamps, etc.

Doesn't that just make you want to buy more Stampin' Up! ??!!
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:38 PM   #2
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I understand their angel policy is in place to protect their images. Check with other companies, they may have one also and you just don't know about it. You can't use a Ford or GM logo on a different product, you can't use a Disney image and sell the item. SU's images are owned by the company, they are somebody's art work.
It's like this...would you like an image that you created, say a card, mass produced by a stranger and printed on the front of a t-shirt without you getting paid for it?
If you purchase a Handstamped with Love set and use it on your handstamped items, you can sell them at craft sales, just not at permanent locations. That's all they are asking, for you to protect their image.
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:46 PM   #3
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I guess I don't think about their policies a whole lot even tho I am a demo because I don't sell anything I make and I do give mine to friends and relatives. But I do believe there are alot of other company's that have similiar policies.
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Old 04-26-2005, 03:05 PM   #4
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So sorry you lost your ebay account and demonstrator status. Perhaps this is a warning to people interested in signing up with SU! Please read your contract and make sure that you understand its policies. I love Stampin' Up! and the policies don't bother me at all. I like a level playing field when it comes to business and this is how SU! helps the demonstrators with their business.

Regards and good luck in your next venture.
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Old 04-26-2005, 03:07 PM   #5
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Quote:

Originally Posted by wendalyn
I guess I don't think about their policies a whole lot even tho I am a demo because I don't sell anything I make and I do give mine to friends and relatives. But I do believe there are alot of other company's that have similiar policies.
Many of the stamps that you can buy an an LSS also have copyright owners who require certain steps be taken before or concurrent with using their images for commercial means. For example, it's been a while since I checked, but Hero Arts has a requirement that you inform them in writing that you will be using their images for limited commercial purposes, that you agree to their terms and conditions of use, and I believe there are also quantity limitations such as no more than say 50 images or so. Some of the stamps that you can buy from Judikins are angel and some are not. Those are just a couple of examples. In almost all cases, they require that you give them credit on the back of any card - some companies provide an "angel stamp" and some just require it in writing. Some companies are full angel and have no requirements.

Bottom line, however, it's the crafter's responsibility to abide by the copyright owner's wishes. The law recognizes the copyright owners' rights to retain rights to their images, and unless we have an attorney on retainer as those companies certainly do, it's to our distinct advantage to abide by the policies of each individual copyright holder.


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Old 04-26-2005, 03:13 PM   #6
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As with most company's those policies apply for people that sell their "Images" on something not for their own personal use. Giving to friends or whatever....
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Old 04-26-2005, 03:56 PM   #7
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I find it interesting too. Also I stamped with SU stamps for many years before I even knew something like this existed. There is no notice of it to customers. It is now on the back of the receipt in nearly unreadable light gray ink on dark gold, but was not there until recent years. When I buy a cross stitch kit and make it I can sell it to whomever, where ever I wish. When I buy stickers I can put them on items and sell them. When I buy art I can sell it to anyone I want. Once something is mine, I believe it is mine to do what I want with. I understand the not reproducing mechanically but imagine if the embellishment companies told us we could not sell anything that has their fibers or charms on it! My sister uses quilt patterns and can sell the quilts. My other sister carves wood using copyrighted patterns. She cannot reproduce and sell the pattern but she can sell the creations she has made. This is true for tole painting and any other hobby I can think of. I think that SU is shooting themselves in the foot. Do they know how many of us started out buying handmade cards and then wanted to do it ourselves and turned out to buy stamping products as a result?

I agree with your analogy of cars. It is kind of like telling you that you can buy it but you cannot put designer seat covers in it, you must not listen to the radio, and you can only carry the passengers they give you permission to carry. I feel that if there were enough pressure put on SU that they would have to fold on this policy. I think not enough people voice this to the company. Most SU stampers that I know (and I know many from being in 10 clubs for years) just go ahead and sell anyway because they think the policy is unfair.
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:38 PM   #8
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Actually, you can not legally do some of the things desribed in the above post. If you look at pretty much any package of stickers bearing Disney images, there is a limitations disclosure right on them. Many XS designers require the purchase of a new pattern for even completed work SOLD.

The SU catalog has a brief description of their angel policy in their catalogue and refer you to the complete policy on-line or from a demo.

If anyone is interested in seeing how SU policy stacks up compared to others:

http://www.littlebit.com/angelList/a...tactpolicy.htm

Keep in mind, this is a summary and you may have to contact the company directly but many say hand stamped, and non permanent locations.
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:38 PM   #9
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Caveat stampor--Latin for "demonstrators should read the contract they sign before they gripe about being caught breaking the rules."
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Old 04-26-2005, 04:42 PM   #10
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I'm sorry you are so disappointed. Stampin' Up! sets these rules for reasons we don't have to understand or agree with... we just have to abide by them.

Love it or leave it, right?

I personally love the images, quality, and products so much I can overlook the angel policy. And I also think some companies appear "cheap" to me in "attitude" because of how freely I can purchase their items/stamped products. JMHO

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Old 04-26-2005, 04:54 PM   #11
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I am curious, did you lose your eBay status and demonstratorship because of a few cards you were selling on eBay or because of all the current stamp sets you were selling? I thought that eBay was not very sympathetic about the selling of current SU merchandise, so I am very surprised.
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:11 PM   #12
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I was wondering this too. What and who lost their ebay/demoship and why??
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:30 PM   #13
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Although you can not sell them at a permanent location - internet or b&m store - you can sell them by word of mouth and or at craft fairs, etc. as long as you use the trademark stamp and are not reping as a demo at the craft fairs. You can advertise that you sell cards and such - but can't use stampin' up's name.
I sell mine by word of mouth and actually do pretty well, but that is my situation.
The angel policy is pretty specific.
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Old 04-26-2005, 05:45 PM   #14
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I've got to tell you, I've had a bee in my bonnet for 20 years now about this whole "Angel Policy" issue. To me stamps are tools just like paint brushes. However, companies sell their products with their own rules attached (kind of like CC&Rs in housing developments) and I figure if I don't like the rules I'll just go buy somewhere else. It isn't worth my time to moan about it. I miss out on some images I like but that's the choice I make. Someday I'll be queen of the world and get to make everyone play by my rules.. yeah right, right after I win a mega lottery! LOL


Quote:

Originally Posted by kimeboss
So WHAT are you to do with ALL your swap cardfronts, scrapbook page swaps, etc.? You better have alot of friends and relatives to send them too. because you surely can't SELL them in a PERMANANT location
This part of your message has me very curious. Are you selling other people's cards and pages that they have sent to you in swaps? I think I'd be a bit annoyed if I thought someone was taking my artwork and selling it for profit.
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:18 PM   #15
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No one on this thread said they were selling current SU sets on ebay. Someone is just attributing that to them without any evidence.
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:22 PM   #16
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
No one on this thread said they were selling current SU sets on ebay. Someone is just attributing that to them without any evidence.
This might be because the contact info for this threads author was a link to an ebay store, which now appears to be closed. Just a guess - not claiming anything factual here
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:53 PM   #17
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Default the truth be known...

Quote:

Originally Posted by katiestamper
So sorry you lost your ebay account and demonstrator status. Perhaps this is a warning to people interested in signing up with SU! Please read your contract and make sure that you understand its policies. I love Stampin' Up! and the policies don't bother me at all. I like a level playing field when it comes to business and this is how SU! helps the demonstrators with their business.

Regards and good luck in your next venture.
Gosh katiestamper...I didn't say ANYTHING about ebay in my OP, did I?

Or do you have a chrystal ball, you can see into?

You have totally missed my point if all you read in my OP was don't sign up with SU. I was saying that it's the COPYRIGHT POLICY/ANGEL POLICY that is the problem.

Hummmmm it seems there were/are lots of SU demos on this site that seemed to be MORE interested in MY business than their own, what a shame...all you have done is sour me on STAMPIN' UP! as a "friendly" company. I have seen the what goes on in the Demo only forum and it's NOT pretty.

I'll take my consumer dollars elsewhere, and be happier doing it.

I don't need your luck especially when it's NOT sincere.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:10 PM   #18
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Quote:

Originally Posted by katiestamper
So sorry you lost your ebay account and demonstrator status. Perhaps this is a warning to people interested in signing up with SU! Please read your contract and make sure that you understand its policies. I love Stampin' Up! and the policies don't bother me at all. I like a level playing field when it comes to business and this is how SU! helps the demonstrators with their business.

Regards and good luck in your next venture.
oh...the bulb just went on, lol!
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:25 PM   #19
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I thought we sent you our card fronts and extra cards so that they are given to wounded troops and other various good causes.....ummmmm
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:40 PM   #20
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
When I buy a cross stitch kit and make it I can sell it to whomever, where ever I wish. When I buy stickers I can put them on items and sell them. When I buy art I can sell it to anyone I want. Once something is mine, I believe it is mine to do what I want with.
This is the mindset among consumers that launched the crackdown on Napster and other filesharing services, and while it is widely held it just isn't true. You may not like the SU! policy, but you unfortunately do not have a legal leg to stand on. As long as their copyright on those images is valid, they call the shots and the law is on their side. For me, all the things I love about SU! products outweigh any disappointment with the restrictions of their angel policy.

Believe it or not, you cannot sell your completed cross stitch kits wherever you want and sometimes it has absolutely nothing to do with copyright law. There are craft shows here that ban vendors from offering anything for sale that was made from a pre-purchased kit.

Dot, you can't have it both ways. If I remember correctly, you said a while back that you were possibly going to sign as an SU! demo. How can you represent a company and a product that you place little confidence in? You repeatedly complain about the quality of the product and badmouth their policies, yet continue to buy and use SU! merchandise. If there's so much you dislike, why continue to give them your money? I'm not saying you have to fall into lockstep, because there are things I wish would change as well. If you really want to demonstrate for them, though, I'd think you could at least pretend to like the company -- or at least not say so many negative things.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:47 PM   #21
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Waaaay interesting view. Unless you can "pretend" a company has no flaws and agree to never mention those flaws you are welcome. If not? I am all about integrity. That means when I have worked for companies and have been interviewed about those companies I tell BOTH the good and the bad. Just the kind of person I am. There are many things about SU that I love, but am unable to play the Pollyanna game about the things that need to be fixed. I have found that my honesty makes me a bit more real than those who prefer to "pretend" as most people see through the "pretending" that some do.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:49 PM   #22
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Quote:

Originally Posted by msdetloff
I thought we sent you our card fronts and extra cards so that they are given to wounded troops and other various good causes.....ummmmm

That's NOT me! That was a few other stampers that LIVE/WORK at walter reed and the other hospitals around Washington DC. I've gotten blamed for enough on SCS don't start another vicious rumor! lol!!
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:53 PM   #23
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Default Here is my take on the Angel Policy...

...I am a CPA and not an attorney. However, I have worked in audit and have valued things like copyrights. Did you know that a copyright is an asset on the balance sheet of a corporation? It has a value. In some corporations, that value can be very significant. My first thought when I read your post was Disney and I saw it mentioned in another post. It is so simple to copy images/artwork. All I need is a color copier and, bang, I don't need to purchase that stamp/sticker/patterned paper/etc. after all, do I? What protection is given to the artist and/or copyright owner? That's where copyright law comes in play. The example of Disney is a good one. We have a wonderful party-cake bakery in town where you can bring in a picture of something and they will reproduce it on a cake for you. A long time ago they changed their policy on this as it relates to copyrighted images. They do offer edible Disney images but they are purchased from Disney. Perhaps through licensing or something - I'm not privy to exactly how they work it out with Disney. Now, the bakery can do a fantastic job of re-creating Cinderella if they chose to - they have wonderful artists on staff. But 1) Disney has no control over how Cinderella (their corporate asset!) is being portrayed and 2) they are not being paid for the use of their asset. There is really that same two-pronged issue going on for most companies with significant copyright assets. How to control the portrayal of their image (and perhaps corporate image as well) along with getting proper compensation for the use of their copyright asset.

I believe that Stampin' Up! chooses to allow stampers quite a bit of leeway with the use of it's images by allowing the sale of products containing their stamped images in virtually all but brick & mortal or comparable permanent locations and by means of mechanical reproduction. Why not allow those two situations? Because when you get large enough to have a permanent location or have the means to produce mechanically then you may very well have a high profile. How can that potentially affect SU!'s corporate image? Well, if I opened my own card store - say Barb's Card Shop or even my own Hallmark store and sold SU! cards then consumers may see my store as a representative for Stampin' Up! corporately. I really believe that this is a real concern and it certainly is for Disney, that's why they keep VERY TIGHT controls on their artwork and images. Their corporate reputation as well as their copyright assets are valuable to their business and they are going to protect them. Stampin' Up! also needs to protect their corporate image/reputation and copyright assets.

As another poster mentioned, the angel policy is referred to on page 190, 199 and 255 in the current 2004/2005 catalog as well as on the back of the customer order form. I'm not sure if you were a demo or not, but it is very clear in the demo application form, website, and demo manual what Stampin' Up! policy is regarding both the angel policy and internet website/auction guidelines. I don't believe that Stampin' Up!'s policy is without precedent and I believe that their focus is really on consumer use, not commercial use, of their product. However, their angel policy does allow reasonable commercial use for crafters and it seems to me that they have been pretty temperate in their control of their copyright assets considering their standing as a top brand in the rubber stamping industry.

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Old 04-26-2005, 07:53 PM   #24
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"Hummmmm it seems there were/are lots of SU demos on this site that seemed to be MORE interested in MY business than their own, what a shame...all you have done is sour me on STAMPIN' UP! as a "friendly" company. I have seen the what goes on in the Demo only forum and it's NOT pretty."

It seems to me that most of the NOT pretty stuff goes on here in the general forums. The demo forums are pretty tame. I don't want people to get the impression that SU is not a friendly company because it is very people oriented. However, when people operate eBay stores, and demonstrators report that they have lost sales and bookings to eBay, well then they might get a tad interested in someone elses business when she advertises it in her Profile.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:05 PM   #25
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
No one on this thread said they were selling current SU sets on ebay. Someone is just attributing that to them without any evidence.
The evidence is in Kimeboss' profile, she has a link directly to her ebay website..which by the way is closed down.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:16 PM   #26
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Kim,
I understand that you must be very upset and that you are doing a major vent here. But you have always been a great proponent of the TOS here at SCS and reminding us how important they are. In fact, I think you may have been instrumental in making it a sticky!
So please, take your own advice and abide by the TOS. I hope you feel better soon.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:25 PM   #27
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Hugs to you Kim. I just want you to know that I think it is dirty play for people here to interfere with your life.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:52 PM   #28
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Quote:

Originally Posted by row4d
This is the mindset among consumers that launched the crackdown on Napster and other filesharing services, and while it is widely held it just isn't true. You may not like the SU! policy, but you unfortunately do not have a legal leg to stand on. As long as their copyright on those images is valid, they call the shots and the law is on their side. For me, all the things I love about SU! products outweigh any disappointment with the restrictions of their angel policy.
************************************************** ********
---Rachel, I totally agree that this is EXACTLY the mindset that has resulted in the Napster crackdown. Intellectual property rights are REAL and if those rights are not going to be protected then our economy is going to suffer for it as well as our culture! It is unfair to say that you can use the artwork that was produced by the sweat of another's brow for your own gain without their permission.
************************************************** ********

Quote:

Originally Posted by row4d
Dot, you can't have it both ways. If I remember correctly, you said a while back that you were possibly going to sign as an SU! demo. How can you represent a company and a product that you place little confidence in? You repeatedly complain about the quality of the product and badmouth their policies, yet continue to buy and use SU! merchandise. If there's so much you dislike, why continue to give them your money? I'm not saying you have to fall into lockstep, because there are things I wish would change as well. If you really want to demonstrate for them, though, I'd think you could at least pretend to like the company -- or at least not say so many negative things.
************************************************** ********
---Once again, I could not agree more. There is a degree of loyalty to a company that you work for that has been lost on some. I notice it most in those that are unionized - NOW DON'T FLAME ME PLEASE :O). I say this because there is a sense of Us vs. Them in union jobs that is just part of that culture. Both of my parents were union - my mother was the shop steward. My sister is now the shop steward at the post office where she works. The bad mouthing of the "bosses/corporation" is part of the culture there. That doesn't mean my parents/sister are *bad people*; they are just part of that culture and it consumes them. I have never worked in a union shop and my experience as a professional is VERY, VERY DIFFERENT. If I bad-mouthed my firm left and right I would probably be eventually let go. Is that wrong? Well, no I don't believe it would be. Because if I have a problem with the company I work for that is so severe that I would try to purposefully tarnish their reputation left and right, then my sense of integrity would require that I resign. Especially as a CPA, I could lose my license if I worked for a disreputable firm that was breaking the law or doing something worthy of me publicly humiliating them. This does not mean that I agree with every single corporate policy they hold. However, as my employer, I owe them a duty to protect their reputation and act in a professional manner. What a difference between those two work environments!! I'm not sure how this plays out with you, Dot, but I wonder if working for the correctional system (I'm assuming a civil service type position) has resulted in your attitude towards your employer in general. Even outside of the Us vs Them attitude, it makes no sense to want to represent a company for which you can speak virtually no good thing about. Of course, that is just my opinion. And to say that being loyal to an employer is a *pollyanna* attitude is showing a very narrow viewpoint. I know thousands, yes thousands, of people that I have met in my lifetime that love their jobs and their employers and would not wish to air their dirty laundry for all to see unless they felt morally compelled to do so for some reason.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:06 PM   #29
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim Wilson
"Hummmmm it seems there were/are lots of SU demos on this site that seemed to be MORE interested in MY business than their own, what a shame...all you have done is sour me on STAMPIN' UP! as a "friendly" company. I have seen the what goes on in the Demo only forum and it's NOT pretty."

It seems to me that most of the NOT pretty stuff goes on here in the general forums. The demo forums are pretty tame. I don't want people to get the impression that SU is not a friendly company because it is very people oriented. However, when people operate eBay stores, and demonstrators report that they have lost sales and bookings to eBay, well then they might get a tad interested in someone elses business when she advertises it in her Profile.
I think that is a good point - for what it is worth
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:11 PM   #30
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Barb, I think you misunderstood and came to the wrong conclusion. I work for the most awesome employer I have ever worked for in my life. Part of the reason I have every intention of staying in this job forever is that my boss continually works hard at making things better. He WANTS us to tell him the little things that bother us. I have a light switch in my office that is in a bad place. When he came asking how he could make me happier (he does this at least monthly) all I could come up with this time was to change that light switch and he did it within 48 hours and we had a good laugh about it. IF anything is wrong I tell him and I know that it will be fixed immediately. This is because he cares about the work atmosphere, our reputation, and the service we provide. If I ever worked for an employer that told me to stay quiet about any problems I would be gone in a second. I have been very, very fortunate to have worked in jobs with employers like this 90% of my career. There is no us against them and BTW we are NOT unionized nor have I ever been a part of a union. On the other hand, I have worked for a place where the company was always right and to speak up about problems we saw was forbidden. They lost their top 30% of their best employees within the 30 days that I worked there. I got out of there as fast as my feet could carry me.

The job I have now is referred to as a "plum position" and that suits me just fine. I am treated like a queen (because I deserve it and my job satisfaction is excellent.

If I do become a demo and that is on hold because of an ill parent right now, I expect to be honest with my customers as my current demo is. She tells us which products can be purchased cheaper elsewhere, which things can be substituted and which products are inferior. On the other hand, when she tells us something is good we know she is telling the truth.

When I was in college we had a professor we called "Sticky Sweet Swanson" because he would tell you you looked beautiful on days you knew you looked like crap. He would rave over classwork that any moron could look at and say it was inferior. He thought every day was a beautiful day. He thought everything anyone did was wonderful. So a compliment from him just wanted to make you gag. When people are 100% thrilled with a product or a company ALL the time even in the face of evidence of unhappy customers I doubt anyone trusts them at all. They come off like the used car salesman who will do anything to make a sale.

If and when I become a demo I am going to pattern myself after my demo who has no problem saying, "Girls do not buy this from SU, but it at Walmart" or "I have had so many returns on this product. Order it if you want, but I don't think you will be happy." When she got the Sincere Saluatations set and I had an order for 2 sayings sets at that month's 10 club, long before the consumers saw Sincere Salutations, she ran and got the set and said, "Are you sure you don't want to wait for this a 1/2 price?" Results? She has so many 10 clubs that no one new can even get into one. Instead of selling the $15 minimum her average at 10 club is right close to $50 per customer each time. When I thought about quitting she had a waiting list of people wanting to get in to take my place. She is awesome because she is one of us. She is REAL and we all know it.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:55 PM   #31
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
Barb, I think you misunderstood and came to the wrong conclusion. I work for the most awesome employer I have ever worked for in my life. Part of the reason I have every intention of staying in this job forever is that my boss continually works hard at making things better. He WANTS us to tell him the little things that bother us. I have a light switch in my office that is in a bad place. When he came asking how he could make me happier (he does this at least monthly) all I could come up with this time was to change that light switch and he did it within 48 hours and we had a good laugh about it. IF anything is wrong I tell him and I know that it will be fixed immediately. This is because he cares about the work atmosphere, our reputation, and the service we provide. If I ever worked for an employer that told me to stay quiet about any problems I would be gone in a second. I have been very, very fortunate to have worked in jobs with employers like this 90% of my career. There is no us against them and BTW we are NOT unionized nor have I ever been a part of a union. On the other hand, I have worked for a place where the company was always right and to speak up about problems we saw was forbidden. They lost their top 30% of their best employees within the 30 days that I worked there. I got out of there as fast as my feet could carry me.

The job I have now is referred to as a "plum position" and that suits me just fine. I am treated like a queen (because I deserve it and my job satisfaction is excellent.

If I do become a demo and that is on hold because of an ill parent right now, I expect to be honest with my customers as my current demo is. She tells us which products can be purchased cheaper elsewhere, which things can be substituted and which products are inferior. On the other hand, when she tells us something is good we know she is telling the truth.

When I was in college we had a professor we called "Sticky Sweet Swanson" because he would tell you you looked beautiful on days you knew you looked like crap. He would rave over classwork that any moron could look at and say it was inferior. He thought every day was a beautiful day. He thought everything anyone did was wonderful. So a compliment from him just wanted to make you gag. When people are 100% thrilled with a product or a company ALL the time even in the face of evidence of unhappy customers I doubt anyone trusts them at all. They come off like the used car salesman who will do anything to make a sale.

If and when I become a demo I am going to pattern myself after my demo who has no problem saying, "Girls do not buy this from SU, but it at Walmart" or "I have had so many returns on this product. Order it if you want, but I don't think you will be happy." When she got the Sincere Saluatations set and I had an order for 2 sayings sets at that month's 10 club, long before the consumers saw Sincere Salutations, she ran and got the set and said, "Are you sure you don't want to wait for this a 1/2 price?" Results? She has so many 10 clubs that no one new can even get into one. Instead of selling the $15 minimum her average at 10 club is right close to $50 per customer each time. When I thought about quitting she had a waiting list of people wanting to get in to take my place. She is awesome because she is one of us. She is REAL and we all know it.
Dot, thanks for clarifying some things for me. Now, I can pinpoint more of the issue here. As it relates to employers, it is one thing to have an open door policy and another thing to go shout any and every little issue you have with your employer from the mountain top in front of customers. I would also be VERY UNHAPPY with an employer that did not have an *open door policy*. For those reading this that have no idea what I am referring to, an *open door policy* generally means that the company encourages employees to come to them about their concerns and suggestions on improving the company and whatever product/service they provide. But this is very different from discussing them with your customers. One of the issues that many demos have with you, if I may speak candidly, is that you seem to nitpick Stampin' Up! with virtually every post that you make that references it - then their customers whom they have referred to this site come here and see all of this negativity about Stampin' Up! and wonder, "Gee, what's wrong with Stampin' Up? Are they really this ogre of a company? Why all of this ugliness? I thought this was the website of a Stampin' Up! demo?" Couple that with you stating that you are considering signing up as a demo and it has many demos on this site perplexed.

I believe that the sage saying "Out of the heart the mouth speaks" has great merit. What we say with our mouths (or in this case, with our fingers LOL) is a direct line from what is in our heart. As I said in my previous post, there is a loyalty that I feel is owed to my employer to not tarnish their corporate reputation in front of their clients. Their clients are the bread and butter that keeps the company in business and food on our tables. Now, does that mean that I would purposefully mislead my clients? No, I cannot do that with integrity. And if I felt I needed to mislead my clients then I would be bound to resign as I stated in my post above. However the need to mislead and the need to embarrass/humiliate are two different things. I am a demo for Stampin' Up! and believe me, I looked very closely at this company and remain nothing but IMPRESSED with their integrity. I have seen many, many corporations from the inside - where they make their money and show their profit. Few compare to what I have witnessed from Stampin' Up! and that is truth. Is Stampin' Up! a perfect company? No, it is not and there is not a perfect company on the face of this earth. But they are a cut above. And I would NEVER stoop to telling everyone every little thing that I am just "so disappointed about" that Stampin' Up! does. Honestly, I have read a lot of the negative posting over the past few months and I have not found anything that I did not either find 1) distorted, 2) blown out of proportion, 3) never offered to Stampin' Up! for resolution or 4) a matter of opinion/taste that was against Stampin' Up! However, I have found an AMAZING number of examples of Stampin' Up! going way above and beyond what I have seen virtually any company of its type do to please its customer base (this includes demos like me who are really just *golden* customers that buy too much LOL).

As for giving customers the directive to buy from others or telling them certain SU! products are unsatisfactory, well, I think it's all in the nuance of professionalism and customer service. I certainly want to know what my customers are looking for and how to best advise them on their purchase. If I had a customer that was buying some sentiment sets and thought they might prefer the Sincere Salutations set, you better believe I would show it to them and try to provide them with the best customer service I can. Does good customer service include telling them that they can buy it cheaper at WalMart - well, my OPINION, is not necessarily. I believe that Stampin' Up! is not out to rip ANYONE off. If that was the case, they would not be one of the top brand names in the rubber stamping industry. Consumers are too smart for that. No, they are providing for a certain market through their coordination via stamp SETS, cardstock, ink, and accessories. They also provide, as a means of offering a complete package, the ability to buy other accessories and tools that are not necessarily their exclusive product. Is a consumer able to sometimes purchase that elsewhere, yes. And they certainly may. But I do not feel that I need to keep abreast of every sale opportunity to help my customers. Frankly, most customers already know that they can buy much of the non-exclusive items elsewhere. I am here to help my customers explore their creativity with stamping and scrapbooking. Some are more price conscious than others and, believe me, THEY GIVE ME pointers on where to get things. That's not the niche I am exploring. But one of the great things about being a demo for Stampin' Up! is they give us incredible leeway to run our business as we see fit. So if your demo's niche is helping each of her customers save every penny they can, good for her! Apparently she is doing well with it. That's not really my niche but it doesn't mean I am being *dishonest* with my customers because I'm not pointing out every alternative source for each item purchased. In my opinion, I would in many ways be conveying to my customers that Stampin' Up! is overpriced and that is far from the truth in my opinion.

Take care,
Barb
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:00 PM   #32
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Barb, some very good points. But I am NOT a demo. I am a customer voicing some questions about complaints. It has been made very clear here that customers are not allowed to mention bad batches of paper, stamp caddies that don't work, etc. Remember I am a customer. If demos want to silence customers, then go for it, but I assure you it is bad practice. Actually, the behavior of many demos on this board does far more damage to the company reputation than any customer who points out that they don't like the pad design.

IF I do become a demo I am going to follow the lead of the integrity of my demo. BUT I am NOT a demo yet and silencing an unhappy customer is not going to impress anyone watching the interchange.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:30 PM   #33
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
Barb, some very good points. But I am NOT a demo. I am a customer voicing some questions about complaints. It has been made very clear here that customers are not allowed to mention bad batches of paper, stamp caddies that don't work, etc. Remember I am a customer. If demos want to silence customers, then go for it, but I assure you it is bad practice. Actually, the behavior of many demos on this board does far more damage to the company reputation than any customer who points out that they don't like the pad design.

IF I do become a demo I am going to follow the lead of the integrity of my demo. BUT I am NOT a demo yet and silencing an unhappy customer is not going to impress anyone watching the interchange.
I am hardly advocating that we should silence customers that have complaints. However, many LIKE to complain - not in order to have something done that will alleviate the problem but in order to blacken the reputation of the company, stir up dissension, or for some other reason. First, I will tell you that if a customer has a complaint then they should go to their demo and then, if it remains unresolved, they should go to Stampin' Up! directly who historically will bend over backwards to resolve complaints. I think many believe that when they complain here they are complaining to Stampin' Up! and that is not true. This is just a wonderful Stampin' Up! demo's website. Many of us feel that our hands are tied because we don't know the person complaining and can really do nothing to help them.

This particular thread (that I believe I have thoroughly hijacked now - sorry) is about the copyright/angel policy of Stampin' Up! Here is a demo (her profile so states) that is upset because she cannot do what is plainly spelled out in Stampin' Up! policy that is provided to both demos and customers. My response to her, which was not meant to be mean or sarcastic in any way, was that she was unfortunately wrong about company policy. And she is a member of the Demo forum, so her need to air this out here on the General Discussion board is certainly not what I would consider professional.

If you find my posts here damaging to Stampin' Up! then I would be very interested to know what I have said that would cause you to draw that conclusion. I am sure that there have been demos that may have misspoken somewhere in this forum and wish they had not. I am not perfect and I may have done it or may do it in the future, although I do not intend to do that. But to say that to not dish the dirt on my Company or to not agree with the OP about the Copyright/Angel Policy is muzzling customers is absurd. My advice to you would be to enjoy this site for the great ideas it provides for utilizing your Stampin' Up! products and other rubber stamping supplies and stop looking for ways to introduce or add to negativity in the forums. You will be much better received and may develop some wonderful friendships. The anger and animosity that I perceive from your posts towards Stampin' Up! and the demos in general on this site does not serve you well. This is not a *pollyanna* attitude and certainly does not preclude honest questions and requests for help in resolving issues. It's all about attitude and the perceptions conveyed via a written medium like internet forums.

Take care,
Barb
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:43 PM   #34
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Dot2dot,

It doesn't appear to me that demos silence anyone here when there are complaints made about Stampin' Up! products. If that was the case, the threads regarding them would disappear, no? On the contrary, it appears that you seek out many threads that you can disperse your negativity throughout. You are always claiming to be the resident expert on this, that, and the other, while playing head cheerleader to anyone that complains about a Stampin' Up! product. Didn't you leave another board because of this very same issue? Has it not clued in that maybe YOU are the problem and not the majority of people on this board?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
I am in 2 different 10 clubs with 2 different demos. I am filling out paperwork to be a demo with a third non-local demo.
Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
If and when I become a demo I am going to pattern myself after my demo who has no problem saying, "Girls do not buy this from SU, but it at Walmart" or "I have had so many returns on this product. Order it if you want, but I don't think you will be happy." When she got the Sincere Saluatations set and I had an order for 2 sayings sets at that month's 10 club, long before the consumers saw Sincere Salutations, she ran and got the set and said, "Are you sure you don't want to wait for this a 1/2 price?" Results? She has so many 10 clubs that no one new can even get into one. Instead of selling the $15 minimum her average at 10 club is right close to $50 per customer each time. When I thought about quitting she had a waiting list of people wanting to get in to take my place. She is awesome because she is one of us. She is REAL and we all know it.
You're conflicting yourself in your posts. First you say that you're signing your demonstratorship under some random internet demo and dumping your 10 club demos (the one with so much integrity), and then you say that you're modeling yourself after a demo that you aren't even going to sign up under. Oh the integrity...

PS. Sorry for the derail. I'm just frankly sick of benign threads being turned into a complaint vendetta thread.

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Old 04-26-2005, 11:04 PM   #35
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Quote:

Originally Posted by dot2dot
It has been made very clear here that customers are not allowed to mention bad batches of paper, stamp caddies that don't work, etc.
Actually, there is an active thread right now at this address:

http://forums.splitcoaststampers.com...ad.php?t=45809

about someone being disappointed with the SU! color caddy and it was resolved to the OP's satisfaction by none other than JanTink who is one of our resident expert demos.

Happy Stamping,
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Old 04-27-2005, 01:16 AM   #36
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Can I jump in about Disney?

Any quilters out there? Please correct me on details, I discovered this about a year ago.

Did you know you can buy embroidery machines? They cost a lot of money. They have fancy computer programs, and you can insert a disk with a design on it, and poof, it embroiders the picture on your item.

The more you spend, the more the machine does.

There is also a machine with exclusive Disney embroidery logos, if you get this machine (a few thousand, is it three or four now?), you can then buy the Disney CDs and do Disney designs.

When I saw this, I was incredulous at the price. Then I said, "Well, I guess at least you can make stuff to sell...." and was immediately stopped.

Oh no. You can't SELL anything you make with Disney images. You can give it away for gifts, or use it for yourself.

I was gasping for air that someone would spend that kind of money just to be able to make Disney images and not sell them!!!!

Disney is one of THE most aggressive companies for protecting copyright.

SU!'s policies flow out of their heartfelt commitment to the home-based party. They are trying to protect their demonstrators. They are committed to sharing the love of stamping through workshops and parties, not through the internet or stores.
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Old 04-27-2005, 01:16 AM   #37
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In fact, I'm surprised some of you have Disney avatars!!!! LOL
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Old 04-27-2005, 02:41 AM   #38
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Well I for one NEVER DID buy current sets on ebay.... I knew it was against SU's policy years ago when I started stamping. I read the policy and am ok with it... there are many companies out there that have these policy's and if you don't want to stick by them DON'T BUY THE STUFF!!! There is no law that says you HAVE TO PURCHASE from a company that you don't agree with their policy!!! If you get caught it is your own fault.... you knew the policy when you signed on!
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Old 04-27-2005, 03:12 AM   #39
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose
SU!'s policies flow out of their heartfelt commitment to the home-based party. They are trying to protect their demonstrators. They are committed to sharing the love of stamping through workshops and parties, not through the internet or stores.
What are they trying to protect demonstrators from?

Do you know people had the same attitude about the TELEPHONE when it was first introduced?!


Check the DSA website:
http://www.dsa.org/index.cfm

Note the address:
Direct Selling Association
1275 Pennsylvania Ave, NW, Suite 800
Washington, D.C. 20004
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Old 04-27-2005, 03:25 AM   #40
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At the risk of getting flamed, I am going to chime in with some brief comments:

1. I do think that stampin up should be a little bit more upfront about their angel policy as it applies to customers. If it is true that the policy currently appears on the back of sales form in barely legible form, it should be be clearer, easy to read and understandable so that there is no confusion.

2. A lot of the information that I have read on this forum and asked questions about seems to be spelled out in the demonstrator manual. That is great but if it really matters it should be available to consumers before they purchase.

3. It is true that many of the posts here that speak less flatteringly of Stampin up are not well received here. So many subsequent posters launch into personal attacks on the original poster and even take the time to search the original poster's post history to throw it back at her, even when it has nothing to with the topic at hand. I don't get that and I really wish it would cease.

4. I think that Stampin Up can insist that their images be properly credited but I think that the requirement that one's entire scrapbook page , card or whatever be credited to Stampin Up is a corporate overreach. The finished product usually involves more than the stamped image on a piece of paper and really, that image is the only thing that Stampin Up can claim ownership of, not the entire work. I think the copyright attribution should properly read : image copyright- Stampin Up or Stamped image-copyright by SU. Just as Stampin UP created the image and owns it, you as the crafter created the finished product and you own that image or product ( the scrapbook page or card). If you are having a difficult time with this, look to the example of anthologies. Indvidual authors can own copyright to their story but the publisher usually owns the copyright to the book- and how the story appears ( the compliation) in that particular volume.

5. As some one earlier rightly pointed out, by selling to crafters, stampin up is engaged in a form of licensing its product. That is what Disney does when it allows Acme T shirt company to print and sell 5,000 Mickey Mouse T shirts. If crafters feel strongly about being able to sell stampin up images in places stampin up currently does not allow, maybe they ( the crafter) would be willing to pay a higher fee for licensing or give Stampin Up a percentage of craft sales.

Stampin Up is a relaitively young company. I think as the craft and their business evolves, their policies will as well. But is there is a real problem with their policies, they need to know about it to change it.
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