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Old 02-21-2008, 07:01 AM   #41
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I've looked at a lot of angel (copyright) policies and most state that the images cannot be mechanically reproduced (photocopied, printed off your computer). They are silent on the issue of taking a stamp, inking it and sending it to a friend to use on a card.

I think if a company wished to prohibit that, it would need to add that to the specific language of its angel policy. Otherwise, stamping a stamp is using the stamp for which it is intended and I believe would be consistent with copyright law.

That said, I've been trying to research copyright law and the papercrafting industry on and off for several months now and a lot of issues do not have clear answers!

Intellectual property law is a boom business and one well recommended to all our kids!!!
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Old 02-21-2008, 07:09 AM   #42
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Skittl1321View Post
You have a license to hand stamp the image
There it is! I was hoping someone would point that out.

The image/copyright owner grants a limited license to the stamp purchaser to reproduce the image by hand-stamping only.

But, the images are NOT to be mechanically reproduced and redistributed.

So, stamp camps, classes, image swaps (as long as they are hand-stamped), etc. all fall within the limitations granted in the license the image owner extends to the purchaser.

And, in some cases, the owner may set further limitations by limiting the quantity of hand-stamped creations that may be sold for profit by the stamp purchaser--related, but different realm than the topic at hand.
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Old 02-21-2008, 07:16 AM   #43
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Just jumpin in here for a quick minute-* BTW, Tina, your company rocks. I love your stamps!
------------------
Okay, Here is my opinion on image swapping.

If a company is an Angel company, it allows for someone to hand-stamp their images and use the image to sell projects for profit. It does NOT allow for mechanical reproduction.

Therefore, if one was to purchase a stamp, stamp a few images and send them off to a friend in a little gift bag, then in return, they received a few other stamped images, that would be allowed under the company's angel policy.

If you consider exchanged images as compensation, it's still okay because the company allows it. I would love to think that someone received a few hand stamped crabs from Gina K. and then could not live without the little guys and ran off to our site to drop the little crabby guy into their shopping cart.

From Tina's post, it sounds like High Hopes is also okay with that.

All we ask as stamp companies is that you don't abuse the privledge. If it becomes abused, one of two things will happen. Companies will change their angel policies (or do away with them,) or they will eventually go out of business. I don't think anyone here wants that. You guys are wonderful and supportive to all of us and we all believe that your intentions are good.

As far as stamp companies who do not have an angel policy, then, swapping images would probably not be allowed.

If you are unsure about something you want to do, the best course of action is always to call or email the company and ask for permission. Then you will know for sure.

When I was creating my techniques DVDs, I call Liz from Cornish Heritage Farms, Hampton Arts, The Angel Company and a few other companies and asked for written permission to use their images in my DVDs. I knew I was actually sending business their way and they would like that, however, out of respect for them and their artists, I asked first. If they had said no, I would have respected that as well.

Make sense? Kinda?, Sorta'?, Maybe?

Hugs,
Gina K.
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Old 02-21-2008, 07:52 AM   #44
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gina K. DesignsView Post
Just jumpin in here for a quick minute-* BTW, Tina, your company rocks. I love your stamps!
------------------
Okay, Here is my opinion on image swapping.

If a company is an Angel company, it allows for someone to hand-stamp their images and use the image to sell projects for profit. It does NOT allow for mechanical reproduction.
Yup!

Quote:

Therefore, if one was to purchase a stamp, stamp a few images and send them off to a friend in a little gift bag, then in return, they received a few other stamped images, that would be allowed under the company's angel policy.
Yup!

Quote:

. . .

All we ask as stamp companies is that you don't abuse the privledge. If it becomes abused, one of two things will happen. Companies will change their angel policies (or do away with them,) or they will eventually go out of business.
Zacly.

Quote:

I don't think anyone here wants that. You guys are wonderful and supportive to all of us and we all believe that your intentions are good.

As far as stamp companies who do not have an angel policy, then, swapping images would probably not be allowed.

If you are unsure about something you want to do, the best course of action is always to call or email the company and ask for permission. Then you will know for sure.
Yup!

Quote:

When I was creating my techniques DVDs, I call Liz from Cornish Heritage Farms, Hampton Arts, The Angel Company and a few other companies and asked for written permission to use their images in my DVDs. I knew I was actually sending business their way and they would like that, however, out of respect for them and their artists, I asked first. If they had said no, I would have respected that as well.

Make sense? Kinda?, Sorta'?, Maybe?

Hugs,
Gina K.
I believe ethics, professionalism, and courtesy always make sense, and are worth both noting and applauding. {{{{{{{{{Gina}}}}}}}}}}

And, evidently, hugging.
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Old 02-21-2008, 07:56 AM   #45
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I will let the experts argue the law on this. I do want to say before WRAK came along I had no Whipper Snapper stamps, I now have 50. I had no Inky Antics, I now have 30. I had no Stamping Bellas, I now have 9 and so on with several more stamp companies including High Hopes, MFT, Gina K, Lockhart, Cornish Heritage Farms ,Stampendous etc. All of these were bought because of a few images I received on WRAK. I think these companies appreciate the orders.
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JulieHRRView Post
Yup!

Yup!

Zacly.

Yup!

I believe ethics, professionalism, and courtesy always make sense, and are worth both noting and applauding. {{{{{{{{{Gina}}}}}}}}}}

And, evidently, hugging.
I love getting hugged by Julie!
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Old 02-21-2008, 09:09 AM   #47
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gina K. DesignsView Post
Just jumpin in here for a quick minute-* BTW, Tina, your company rocks. I love your stamps!
------------------
Okay, Here is my opinion on image swapping.

If a company is an Angel company, it allows for someone to hand-stamp their images and use the image to sell projects for profit. It does NOT allow for mechanical reproduction.

Therefore, if one was to purchase a stamp, stamp a few images and send them off to a friend in a little gift bag, then in return, they received a few other stamped images, that would be allowed under the company's angel policy.

If you consider exchanged images as compensation, it's still okay because the company allows it. I would love to think that someone received a few hand stamped crabs from Gina K. and then could not live without the little guys and ran off to our site to drop the little crabby guy into their shopping cart.

From Tina's post, it sounds like High Hopes is also okay with that.

All we ask as stamp companies is that you don't abuse the privledge. If it becomes abused, one of two things will happen. Companies will change their angel policies (or do away with them,) or they will eventually go out of business. I don't think anyone here wants that. You guys are wonderful and supportive to all of us and we all believe that your intentions are good.

As far as stamp companies who do not have an angel policy, then, swapping images would probably not be allowed.

If you are unsure about something you want to do, the best course of action is always to call or email the company and ask for permission. Then you will know for sure.

When I was creating my techniques DVDs, I call Liz from Cornish Heritage Farms, Hampton Arts, The Angel Company and a few other companies and asked for written permission to use their images in my DVDs. I knew I was actually sending business their way and they would like that, however, out of respect for them and their artists, I asked first. If they had said no, I would have respected that as well.

Make sense? Kinda?, Sorta'?, Maybe?

Hugs,
Gina K.
Gina.....just had to say.....I was one of those members, who after seeing your little crab......just HAD to have it!!...... If I had not seen it in person, I can honestly say.....I'm not sure I would of purchased it!!.... Sharing is GOOD!!

Thanks!!
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Old 02-22-2008, 06:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by myhappyplaceView Post
Don't shoot the messenger, I didn't make the law.

A library is different, the library is not making a new book for you to have your own copy so you won't have to buy the book. It's loaning you something.

A card swap is giving something that you personally created, not just stamped images. Copyright law isn't one of those things that's black and white.

with wish rak you are reproducing a copyrighted image for someone so they will not have to purchase the copyrighted work themselves.

It is what it is and as I said, companies look at these things and decide whether or not it's worth stopping. Stamping companies may feel it's not worth the money they would have to spend to stop it or they may feel it benefits them in the long run not to enforce the copyright violations. With some people, like you, they end up getting the stamps because they fell in love with them. So maybe they like the idea of Wish Rak but ultimately it's their call.

But just because a company doesn't choose to enforce something doesn't mean it's not a (potential) violation.

If anyone is interested you can read more about it here: http://www.copyright.gov/

and a good explanation of Fair Use is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use and it discusses the use of the work acting as a market replacement.

Gee, I hope you've never purchased a book or music at a yard sale or a second hand shop. Just kidding. Understanding the intricacies of any law, including copyright law, takes time and a great deal of research and experience. Courts in different jurisdictions will have different interpretations. I certainly wouldn't make any legal decisions based on reading Wikipedia. The Angel company policies I've seen prohibit mechanical reproduction and swapping a few handstamped RAK images is not a violation of their policy. If you look at the warnings on music and videos you will generally see a statement that prohibits all reproduction. There is no way to "hand stamp" or the equivalent with a video or electronic music file. I see the sharing of a small number of hand stamped images as completely different than electronically sharing music files, which takes little effort and it can be perpetuated over and over again by each person who receives the electronic copy. The stamp companies must see the difference too or else their policies would go beyond prohibiting electronically reproduced images.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:00 AM   #49
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O.k. so after reading everything here about the image swapping. How is this any differant then printing off 1 or 2 copies from a website of an image to make 1 or 2 cards. It's no differant than getting 2 images from a rak / image swap from someone online here at scs.

I'm not talking about mass producing here.Or even selling anything. I'm simple talking about 1 or 2 images to make a quick card or tag for a scrapbook page.

That's it.

I can hold a image swap here on scs saying it a non su stamp company like bellas, house mouse. People are sending in 10 or more to exchange other house mouse images etc. I'm talking about 1 or 2 that's it.

To me the 10 or more is worse than 1 or 2. Plus you can only print 1 per sheet of paper. which to me is using up more paper since I wouldn't want to waste all the paper making tons of copies it's not worth the price of paper.

that's just my two cents.
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:47 AM   #50
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa62View Post
O.k. so after reading everything here about the image swapping. How is this any differant then printing off 1 or 2 copies from a website of an image to make 1 or 2 cards. It's no differant than getting 2 images from a rak / image swap from someone online here at scs.

I'm not talking about mass producing here.Or even selling anything. I'm simple talking about 1 or 2 images to make a quick card or tag for a scrapbook page.
The difference between the two scenarios you listed is that with a swapped image SOMEONE has paid to buy the stamp. There might not be a discernable difference to you, but as someone who feeds my children by selling stamps, I promise there is to me. As has been stated, if stamp company owners were against swapping images it would be included in their Angel or Copyright policies. Of the companies I purchase from, I've not found this listed on any site, so it leads me to believe they find it valuable in terms of exposure and advertising. There is a reason most images listed on most websites have watermarks. It's simply a security blanket to protect very hard work and a HUGE investment. Why would any stamp company invest the many tens of thousands it costs to do this and feel it was appropriate to have someone get the fruits of their labor of love w/o compensation? I really hope this clarifies the distinction a bit!
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:45 PM   #51
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Quote:

Seems wish rak does both, the person you're sending to does not have to purchase the stamp (preventing the company from making a profit) and you get stamped images in return (that would be seen as you're profit).

In all the time I have been playing in the wish rak forum here I have never mailed a wish out with the expectation that I would receive something in exchange for mailing out the images...
I think that maybe you are not understanding this exactly the way i see it. this is not a swap forum I am not trading my images per say for the same amount from someone else. they are "gifts".

Unfortunately for my debit card I have also bought many many stamps and sets i would not have done so if i had not been gifted with them from the generosity of ladies in the wish rak forum.


And this is an entirely different thing as sending out Hand stamped images ( which i paid sometimes through the nose for some of them) on cardstock again i paid for, as a gift through the mail (Don't even get me started on postage costs)
then printing copyrighted photos off the net. doesn't matter if its personal for one or two cards or to sell a dozen. that is stealing. And a good rule of thumb is to just assume EVERY PHOTO on the net is copyrighted if it has a watermark or not.
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:55 PM   #52
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Quote:

Originally Posted by JBgreendawnView Post
In all the time I have been playing in the wish rak forum here I have never mailed a wish out with the expectation that I would receive something in exchange for mailing out the images...
I think that maybe you are not understanding this exactly the way i see it. this is not a swap forum I am not trading my images per say for the same amount from someone else. they are "gifts".

Unfortunately for my debit card I have also bought many many stamps and sets i would not have done so if i had not been gifted with them from the generosity of ladies in the wish rak forum.


And this is an entirely different thing as sending out Hand stamped images ( which i paid sometimes through the nose for some of them) on cardstock again i paid for, as a gift through the mail (Don't even get me started on postage costs)
then printing copyrighted photos off the net. doesn't matter if its personal for one or two cards or to sell a dozen. that is stealing. And a good rule of thumb is to just assume EVERY PHOTO on the net is copyrighted if it has a watermark or not.
Exactly!!!
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:21 PM   #53
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Just to answer your original question Lisa62, you can google printable coloring pages and then maybe your topic and that might give you some free printable images to work with. They might need to be resized for a smaller scale in a paint program or with a photocopier, but maybe that will work.
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Old 02-23-2008, 10:14 PM   #54
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Something I would never do kinda defeats the purpose of them selling the stamps to make money....
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Old 02-24-2008, 01:19 AM   #55
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Hi all,

As the owner and designer of Elzybells Art Stamps I would like to echo other people's comments that taking images from any company's website etc is simply stealing.
We have a very generous copyright policy so really don't understand the need to breach it.

One problem is also that some people don't believe copyright law to be 'real' or an actual law. I have recently taken successful legal action against an individual who was producing and selling a product with one of our images which breached our copyright.

With regard to swaps of stamped images, although I cannot speak for other stamp companies, I personally don't have a problem with this being done with our stamps, so long as individuals are not selling the stamped images (which I have actually seen on a well known auction site).

It's not just the money issue that affects me as a company. I spend a long time working and reworking my designs. Sometimes they don't come that easy and it really hurts me personally as a designer to see what is essentially a lack of respect for my work.

I'd also just like to add that it's great (and very refreshing) to see so many customers supporting stamp companies and their designers

Hugs,
Elizabeth xx
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ellebelleView Post
Hi all,

As the owner and designer of Elzybells Art Stamps I would like to echo other people's comments that taking images from any company's website etc is simply stealing.
We have a very generous copyright policy so really don't understand the need to breach it.

One problem is also that some people don't believe copyright law to be 'real' or an actual law. I have recently taken successful legal action against an individual who was producing and selling a product with one of our images which breached our copyright.

With regard to swaps of stamped images, although I cannot speak for other stamp companies, I personally don't have a problem with this being done with our stamps, so long as individuals are not selling the stamped images (which I have actually seen on a well known auction site).

It's not just the money issue that affects me as a company. I spend a long time working and reworking my designs. Sometimes they don't come that easy and it really hurts me personally as a designer to see what is essentially a lack of respect for my work.

I'd also just like to add that it's great (and very refreshing) to see so many customers supporting stamp companies and their designers

Hugs,
Elizabeth xx
Hey, Elizabeth! from across The Pond.

Thank you for chiming in from the perspective of an illustrator and company owner--I hope it helps folks have a clearer understanding of the ramifications to the people behind the images and companies we know and love.
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Old 02-24-2008, 12:07 PM   #57
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Hey Julie, I'm waving back at ya!
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Old 02-24-2008, 05:22 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by #1artist4highhopesView Post
How about a little story (I'm thinking of food yet again...):
You go over to your friend's house for supper. You share a meal with her and her family. You don't run out to the grocery store to give them money for the food you ate. That would be silly, because your friend already paid for it. They are just sharing a sampling of their weekly groceries with you.
Same deal with an image swap. Someone has paid for the stamp, and they are sharing a sampling with you.
Lets say you loved the pizza she served you, and you decide to have it for lunch the next day. But you're alone at lunchtime. So you think, I only want one piece, not a whole pizza. So you go to the same store your friend bought the pizza from, go to the deli section where they make the pizza's, and proceed to cut a slice out of a fresh pizza, and walk out of the store without paying for it. Well afterall, you only need one piece, so you don't want to bother paying for the whole thing.
So the grocer sees what you are doing, and nods his head in approval as you walk away with your one slice of pizza....
NOT!! Rather, you get pulled aside by store security and possibly face charges for shop lifting.
No apologies here, because what you are proposing is EXACTLY the same thing.
And as far as image swapping of ten images being worse than your stealing one or two off the internet, think again:
With the image swaps, at least there has been one sale. With your way of getting images, no stamp company ever makes a sale. So even though its only two images, they are always stolen, never paid for. What if everyone started to do that? Stamp companies would cease to exist.
For the sake of the stamp companies that are struggling to show a profit in this very competitive market, please re-think this. And think about the people you are affecting and hurting with this philosophy. Its not like we are nameless and faceless, just because you haven't seen us up close and personal.
I hope you change your mind about this, and spread the word for others to do the same. You have the potential to make a difference for good by discouraging illegal copying. Please take a serious look at it. It affects a lot of people. I hope we have been convincing, and I hope you make the right choice.
Crissy
Crissy, an extremely clear and well put explanation. We NEED stamp companies.
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