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Old 07-06-2006, 01:20 PM   #1  
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Default What is the policy for a non demo and selling cards with su stamps on cards.

I was thinking about making some cards and selling them possibly online,and having my own website.But I plan on using su stamps on the cards,and perjaps some other companies.
What is the best way to go about doing this the right way if I can even do this at all.

I need as much info on this as possible.to make it legal,
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:25 PM   #2  
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The Angel Policy for SU applies to ALL people not just Demos. I think you can find the policy on the SU! site. www.staminup.com
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:31 PM   #3  
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I thought that you couldn't sell things with SU! stamps on them online? I thought i heard that somewhere, but I could be way off...

Beat me with a rubber stamp if I am...I mighta mis-read something.
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Old 07-06-2006, 01:38 PM   #4  
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I'm not 100% sure but before I even did anything I wanted to ask first here.Since I knew you ladies here would know right away.
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Old 07-06-2006, 02:34 PM   #5  
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I was curious myself:
"You may sell your craftworks at community fundraisers, seasonal boutiques, bazaars or other temporary craft events. Hand-stamped items may be sold at nonhostess demonstrator events and at a demonstrator's booth at a temporary commercial event. Hand-stamped items cannot be sold in any permanent retail location (any location that conducts business in a store, consignment shop, kiosk, mall, or Internet site), nor may they be sold to other vendors for resale purposes."

This is in the Angel Policy on the website under number 4.
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Old 07-06-2006, 03:48 PM   #6  
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Ok, enough is enough---to me if SU allows you to sell your cards anywhere, I think they've opened the door to SELL--period! Since the things change on ebay almost daily, nothing is permanent on there. I'm spend sooo much a year on SU stamps, paper, and ink and I'm NOT A DEMO that I think it's wrong, just plain WRONG not to be able to sell what I make!!! What is the diff is I make 300 cards to sell at a "craft fair" and make 300 cards to sell on ebay??? NONE! Now I know that some people are going to jump in this, but think people,,,,,,who is getting rich from us buying the stamps????

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Old 07-06-2006, 04:14 PM   #7  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by prbloom
Ok, enough is enough---to me if SU allows you to sell your cards anywhere, I think they've opened the door to SELL--period! Since the things change on ebay almost daily, nothing is permanent on there. I'm spend sooo much a year on SU stamps, paper, and ink and I'm NOT A DEMO that I think it's wrong, just plain WRONG not to be able to sell what I make!!! What is the diff is I make 300 cards to sell at a "craft fair" and make 300 cards to sell on ebay??? NONE! Now I know that some people are going to jump in this, but think people,,,,,,who is getting rich from us buying the stamps????

Paula
I can totally understand that frustration you are expressing but I have to say rather than get all upset about it I have started going to other stamp companies. Inky Antics, and TAC so far. They have true angel policies (as long as you don't run a sweat shop you are free to sell what you make )
I just outgrew the SU! confines I guess and had to explore my other options.

Now that being said, I think that when we buy SU! stamps we know what they are going to allow or not allow. And so although it is frustrating it doesn't mean that we are able to do as we wish...we simply either stay within their copyrights or we find another company that is more lenient... I have a friend who is signing up to be a TAC Angel (she just sent in her paperwork today) and I am excited to get some more images from her soon!
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Old 07-06-2006, 04:59 PM   #8  
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What some people are doing is "donating their cards" at a shop and asking for a "suggested donation of X amount". Another thing being done is for people to give their cards to a shop to sell in return for merchandise. No money exchanges hands and the rule is not broken. I doubt that SU would prosecute anyone anyway as that would make this multimillion dollar profit company look pretty petty to prosecute people for selling their handmade greetings.
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Old 07-06-2006, 05:10 PM   #9  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by annabelle1974
What some people are doing is "donating their cards" at a shop and asking for a "suggested donation of X amount". Another thing being done is for people to give their cards to a shop to sell in return for merchandise. No money exchanges hands and the rule is not broken. I doubt that SU would prosecute anyone anyway as that would make this multimillion dollar profit company look pretty petty to prosecute people for selling their handmade greetings.
But how does the shop sell the card? Then they are selling copyrighted materials that the company doesn't allow.
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Old 07-06-2006, 05:18 PM   #10  
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That is still breaking the copyright policy. I know that SU! has contacted stores directly regarding cards being sold at the store and being told that it was against the copyright policy and that they could be prosecuted. Sadly, the individual who was selling the cards had been mislead by her demonstrator, as was the store owner who also stamped and sold the cards They complied immediately as SU! does have the right to prosecute any violation. They still buy and use SU! but they are now very careful about not selling any cards with those images. They have also chosen to pass the info onto others that use the same demonstrator who had also been mislead so they don't get in trouble either.

If you are seriously looking to sell your handstamped items online I recommend you check out this site: http://www.littlebit.com/angelList/a...policyonly.htm
This lists the company and what their angel policy is. This will help you with what stamps you can use to handstamp items and sell online. Two others that are not listed on there are www.justjohanna.com and www.missybdesigns.com and I am sure that there are others on SCS that might know of other great companies that have full Angel Policies.
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Old 07-06-2006, 08:58 PM   #11  
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The logic behind SU!'s stance is this:

If you can buy their cards ANYWHERE (especially on the internet, which is SO EASY), then they are no longer encouraging people to STAMP.

They repeatedly state that they are commited to the home-based workshop.

By limiting the ability for one to purchase pre-made SU! cards, they are encouraging people to make their own.

I understand that some people never will. But that's SU!'s stance, and it makes sense.

People that want to sell cards anywhere can simply find other companies that allow this.
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Old 07-06-2006, 10:54 PM   #12  
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An artist's livelihood depends on their ability to profit from the sale of their artwork directly.

The artist himself only gains a profit by each one time sale of the image/rubberstamp. An artist cannot produce nearly as many new/original images as the craftsperson who can mass-stamp that one image and "sell it" on hand-made cards, and effectively profit in an unlimited fashion by the one-time purchase of that same image, using it repeatedly, without ever having to pay royalties to the original artist--the creator of the image--for the use of that artwork in the sale of each card.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the Angel policies and copyrights of any given company, it is important to note that copyright law and Angel policies exist for the protection of the original creator of the image, who actually loses opportunities for income off the sales of the stamp (their original artwork), if the images are used and sold by other craftspersons in the form of cards.
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Old 07-06-2006, 10:57 PM   #13  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa62
I was thinking about making some cards and selling them possibly online,and having my own website.But I plan on using su stamps on the cards,and perjaps some other companies.
What is the best way to go about doing this the right way if I can even do this at all.

I need as much info on this as possible.to make it legal,
SU! copyright and angel policy forbids the sale of items incorporating their images via any fixed/permanent retail location, and via any internet auction site or web store.

This policy applies to all, across the board, demonstrators or consumers alike.

HTH,
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:40 AM   #14  
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Thank you ladies I just hope I can learn to love some of these other stamp companies images as much AS i LOVE SU'S.oTHER WISE i might just have to come up with my own.And have some place make them for me.

I can draw but just Thought it would be esier to use stamps i love already and work witht them.

I do really hope I can find a place .

What about invitations: where is a good place to find a site for invitations.this is really what I am going for.I was just hoping to use the su stamps in the background but since I can't now .I'll have to look at the other websites.

I can still use some ideas on writing invitations.so if you have any special sites for this please send them my way.I can use the ideas.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:11 AM   #15  
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I totally agree with Sereikastamper.

This is how I view it. If a company has a total no angel policy, I don't buy their products. I make it my business to learn the angel policy from any company I plan on purchasing stamps from which includes contacting them directly. I tell them what I'd like to do and every company I've contacted has gotten back to me. You are not stuck with companies who have limited angel policies. There are a lot of quality stamps out there made by companies who ENCOURAGE you to use their stamps on items for sale (barring mass mecanical production).

Laura
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:47 AM   #16  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Skittl1321
But how does the shop sell the card? Then they are selling copyrighted materials that the company doesn't allow.
I don't think the store is breaking any policy, maybe they are, but it does protect the artist. Once you give something away no one can hold you responsible for what they decide to do with it.
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:59 AM   #17  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by annabelle1974
I don't think the store is breaking any policy, maybe they are, but it does protect the artist. Once you give something away no one can hold you responsible for what they decide to do with it.
They are breaking the angel policy- they are selling in a permanent retail location (their store).

The person who gave the cards to the store is in agreement with the policy, they didn't sell them in a retail location, because no money changed hands- but the store owner is now in violation.
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:54 AM   #18  
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Default It seems to me that....

It seems to me that SU! should have bigger concerns like ebay vendors selling "fake" acrylic stamps with their designs on them. I bought one set from a vendor "XXXX" which was exactly identical to Toile Blossoms. It was described as unmounted.

When it arrived it was acrylic and very cheaply made but the designs were IDENTICAL to Toile Blossoms. I asked the vendor to take the item back for a refund (I did not want fake stamps) and am still in substantial dispute with them as they have not yet refunded.

Last edited by JulieHRR; 07-07-2006 at 06:59 AM.. Reason: Edited by SCS Team Member JulieHRR for TOS reasons
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Old 07-07-2006, 06:55 AM   #19  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by annabelle1974
I don't think the store is breaking any policy, maybe they are, but it does protect the artist. Once you give something away no one can hold you responsible for what they decide to do with it.

In this scenario, the person who gave the cards away has not violated copyright. But, the store, in SELLING the cards in their fixed permanent retail location, is indeed violating SU!'s copyright and would be held accountable under the law.

In the case of selling online in a web store or auction site, the potential exists to sell thousands and thousands of cards due to the very nature of online shopping and the exposure to millions of consumers via those means.

SU! permits sales of hand-stamped items in temporary locations such as craft fairs, because of the limited exposure to consumers such venues have and the limited volume of cards that could be sold in same.

This is also why they only allow "hand-stamped" by you, and you alone, as an individual. You may not mechanically or otherwise reproduce the image and you may not have employees that are also hand-stamping cards in production fashion.

HTH,
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:04 AM   #20  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by MazG
It seems to me that SU! should have bigger concerns like ebay vendors selling "fake" acrylic stamps with their designs on them. I bought one set from a vendor "XXXX" which was exactly identical to Toile Blossoms. It was described as unmounted.

When it arrived it was acrylic and very cheaply made but the designs were IDENTICAL to Toile Blossoms. I asked the vendor to take the item back for a refund (I did not want fake stamps) and am still in substantial dispute with them as they have not yet refunded.
In this situation, I would urge you to contact SU! directly with your concerns and information. SU! has had to deal with such piracy in the past, sadly.

SU! has to remain vigilant in ALL areas of their copyrights, in an effort to protect the company.
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:12 AM   #21  
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I get what everyone is saying here, about protecting the original artist's rights and all.....BUT, I think that forbidding someone to sell a handmade craft made with stamps (that someone OWNS) is like telling someone, you can buy a pattern to make a shirt, but don't you dare sell that shirt! In my honest (and humble) opinion SU! only stands to make more money because the people making the cards to sell will buy more stamps, cardstock, ink, embellishments, etc. and are most likely selling to people who would never stamp a card themselves anyway. I am not a demonstrator and for me it is hard to justify buying sets that I will only use a few times a year (for birthdays or holidays) to give to people I know. If I could stamp to sell, I could support my habit better, KWIM?
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:24 AM   #22  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by nonda
I get what everyone is saying here, about protecting the original artist's rights and all.....BUT, I think that forbidding someone to sell a handmade craft made with stamps (that someone OWNS) is like telling someone, you can buy a pattern to make a shirt, but don't you dare sell that shirt! In my honest (and humble) opinion SU! only stands to make more money because the people making the cards to sell will buy more stamps, cardstock, ink, embellishments, etc. and are most likely selling to people who would never stamp a card themselves anyway. I am not a demonstrator and for me it is hard to justify buying sets that I will only use a few times a year (for birthdays or holidays) to give to people I know. If I could stamp to sell, I could support my habit better, KWIM?
While I can see your perspective, there actually are companies that do indeed place restrictions on shirt patterns, and the like, and forbid the selling of shirts made with their patterns.

On a related matter, Daisy Kingdom and Disney, for example, produce printed fabrics that the consumer may use for personal use only, but may not use to make finished garments for resale/profit. These companies are extremely vigilant in protecting their copyright, and understandably so.
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:39 AM   #23  
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Ok totally off topic but I love "nobody knows the Truffelz I have seen" LOL Jules you crack me up!
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Old 07-07-2006, 08:50 AM   #24  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereikastamper
Ok totally off topic but I love "nobody knows the Truffelz I have seen" LOL Jules you crack me up!
Then, a good deed I have done today.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:11 AM   #25  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by nonda
I get what everyone is saying here, about protecting the original artist's rights and all.....BUT, I think that forbidding someone to sell a handmade craft made with stamps (that someone OWNS) is like telling someone, you can buy a pattern to make a shirt, but don't you dare sell that shirt! In my honest (and humble) opinion SU! only stands to make more money because the people making the cards to sell will buy more stamps, cardstock, ink, embellishments, etc. and are most likely selling to people who would never stamp a card themselves anyway. I am not a demonstrator and for me it is hard to justify buying sets that I will only use a few times a year (for birthdays or holidays) to give to people I know. If I could stamp to sell, I could support my habit better, KWIM?
SU does not forbid you from selling your handcrafted items...they just LIMIT where you can sell them...which is any fixed, permanent location - the internet is considered a fixed location because people could just call up a website and go shopping...
I am a demo and I SELL a lot of my cards and other crafts to friends and family. I always have a stash of cards at hand - I spend the majority of my year building up my stash of stuff and participate in a big craft fair around the holidays in addition to 1 or 2 other smaller ones during the year. My friends (and customers) need a particular card I am happy to sell them one of my creations. I also do cards and projects on commission basis - people ask me - "can you do XYZ?" - if I can I work up a price for them and do what they request.
I slowly got the word out by giving various people my cards...In fact I gave my daughters daycare director a set of cards as a gift and now she wants to buy a bunch of cards from me...my husband has let it be known around his office that I make cards and other crafts and I have gotten a few commissionable orders from some of his co-workers...
SU is not alone in their angel policy - there are other stamp companies that have the same policy as SU...whereas, other stamp companies are more free with thier images...
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:18 AM   #26  
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Jen, thank you for that well-written clarification!

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonda
BUT, I think that forbidding someone to sell a handmade craft made with stamps (that someone OWNS)
I think what many folks struggle with, is the concept of the above; when you purchase a stamp, you don't own the "image" or artwork. You purchased a piece of rubber and a wooden block. Only the owner of the artwork/image can determine how that artwork/image itself will be used by others, whether that be personal use only or a limited use for personal gain, etc., etc., etc.
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:37 AM   #27  
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If you feel very strongly about Stampin Up!'s angel policy, I suggest that you send them a letter or email and make your voice heard.
http://www.stampinup.com/us/enu/7.asp
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Old 07-07-2006, 09:55 AM   #28  
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I just wanted to add... Someone once posted that the SU Angel Policy has never been challenged in court as it pertains to selling in a fixed location (I do not know personally if this is true or not)... Either way; here is the rub... I'm certainly not going to go up against the SU legal department, or risk my demonstratorship for that matter. I make more $$$ as a demo than I do selling cards. SU seeks to SELL STAMPS... not cards. IMHO if you want to make money with SU...then become a demo. If you want to make money making cards; purchase from one of the many other companies who encourage use of their images for this purpose!
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:09 PM   #29  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mastamper
If you feel very strongly about Stampin Up!'s angel policy, I suggest that you send them a letter or email and make your voice heard.
http://www.stampinup.com/us/enu/7.asp
I wouldn't say that I feel very strongly about it, I just like to question things that don't make sense to me.....After reading the responses, it does start to make more sense, the lightbulb goes on, and I am (almost) getting it! As far as going to other companies to buy images that are "legal" to sell.....I really love SU!'s images, more than any others I've seen. And, who am I kidding when I begin to think that I could sell cards to support my habit? Hell, if I can crank out a birthday card once a year for each of my nieces and nephews it's a flippin miracle! Happy stamping to everyone.
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Old 07-09-2006, 04:59 PM   #30  
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Just wondering....what exactly does SU do to stop sellers on eBay? An easy search will come up with hand made cards using SU stamps etc...scrap book pages using SU products...etc...
And what about those sellers that are selling SU PRODUCTS? Lots of sellers are selling SUY cardstock, pre-cut in sets etc...it would almost seem that SU would stand to lose more money from these sellers than from card sellers. Even though there is no art work involved, does SU have a policy regarding this type of sale?
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Old 07-09-2006, 05:00 PM   #31  
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oops...typo...no need for that Y after SU...darn fingers...one day they WILL learn to type...LOL
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Old 07-09-2006, 10:46 PM   #32  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by deca1964
Just wondering....what exactly does SU do to stop sellers on eBay?
SU is very active in working to shut down demonsrators who sell or aid in the sale of ebay items... they set up "sting" operations, monitor Demo purchasing patterns and have an in-house team at corporate dedicated to stopping this abuse of sales. In fact they recently shut down a very large seller. If you are caught they will take away your demonstratorship, and you can never be a demo again.
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Old 07-10-2006, 02:45 AM   #33  
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So even if the eBay seller is NOT a demo and they are selling cardstock in "kits" precut into tags, cards etc...they will go after the demo who this seller might be buying from?
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:43 PM   #34  
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Originally Posted by deca1964
So even if the eBay seller is NOT a demo and they are selling cardstock in "kits" precut into tags, cards etc...they will go after the demo who this seller might be buying from?
Absolutely... if we knowingly sell to a person who is selling on ebay we can loose our demonstratorship... Part of our education on this matter has been to be on the lookout for people ordering multiples of one current item, and people who purchase more that they might be able to personally use. I guess in the past Demos have even been asked for (or duped into giving) their ID number and passwords, and have given that out to "customers" who then place the orders!
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Old 07-10-2006, 05:27 PM   #35  
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Would it make a difference if the stamps used were from retired sets? Or is it a "no-no" to sell anything in a fixed location at any time?
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Old 07-10-2006, 06:22 PM   #36  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by jmassucco
Would it make a difference if the stamps used were from retired sets? Or is it a "no-no" to sell anything in a fixed location at any time?
No difference. Doesn't matter if the stamps are current or retired. Can't sell in a fixed location.
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:29 PM   #37  
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Ok I find this thread kind of intriguing if only because I have just recently become interested in both stamping and eBay (not necessarily together but you know what I mean...LOL) So what about the ton of folks on ebay who simply advertise that they are selling a set of say 10 hand stamped SU cards but who state "due to the SU policy I cant show you pictures" Are they not technically still in defiance of the angel policy? They are still selling over the internet but are not showing the images. If these people are also going against policy boy oh boy that department of SU must be very busy indeed. There are a lot of people selling stock (paper etc) and stamped cards on eBay..
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:38 PM   #38  
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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I wonder if they spend more time policing the sale of massive amounts of sets... anyway, if you come across those, you can send the link to DS and let them handle it.
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Old 07-10-2006, 07:40 PM   #39  
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ok..gonna show my stupidity now...who or what is DS?..LOL
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Old 07-10-2006, 08:33 PM   #40  
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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I'm sorry - Demonstrator Support.
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