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Old 03-10-2007, 04:42 AM   #1  
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Question Questions on "Casing"

I know what "case" means but I'm a little unsure of what's considered casing and what's just being inspired. If I make something exactly as someone else did, that's casing. But, if I see a card or whatever I like and switch out say the stamps and cardstock colors but use the layout, is that still casing or is that being inspired? And do I need to give credit for the inspiration?

I see that there are those here that really want credit for their work so I want to make sure I honor that. Personally I couldn't care less if someone copies what I've done and doesn't give me credit but that's just me. I do want to give credit where credit is due but what's the proper etiquette??
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Old 03-10-2007, 04:56 AM   #2  
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Here's my 2 cents:

I *personally* feel that if you have someone's card either in your mind, or printed out, and you are specifically using that for your inspiration, you should give the credit to that designer for inspiring you.

I just feel like its the nice thing to do, YKWIM?
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Old 03-10-2007, 05:07 AM   #3  
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A lot of people refer to something as "partially CASEd" which I think is an oxymoron. Either you copied "everything" or you didn't KWIM?

Like Trudee said, it's just nice to give a little shout out to the person who inspired your card. Sometimes it's hard to keep that info straight when you browse dozens and dozens of gallery cards, so when I save inspiration images to my hard drive I change the file name to that person's username. That way it's easy to go back and see whose card I looked at before making mine!
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Old 03-10-2007, 06:05 AM   #4  
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Unless you copy a card exactly, I don't consider it CASing. I am inspired by something for almost all my cards. The other problem is when you sit down to make a card and you have looked at many galleries of cards it is going to be pretty hard not to use things you have seen somewhere. I may make a card with a stamp set I saw used on dozens of cards 6 months ago. I am no longer actually looking at those cards, nor could I ever find them again, but there is a good chance that not only will they inspire me but that I could come up with something very close to what I had seen. When thousands of women all buy the same stamp set, the same inks and papers, and even the same ribbon and then share pictures of their cards on the internet, it is just going to happen. I would bet if you looked at my hundreds of samples, many of them would ring a bell that you had seen very similar cards elsewhere. Similar is not CASing.

I still maintain that if you don't want others to make your cards, don't post them on your gallery/blog and include the recipe. If I give someone a recipe for my cake it is a direct offer to have them make the same cake. This is the part that baffles me!! If I don't want others to make the same cake I certainly don't give them the recipe!!
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Old 03-10-2007, 06:14 AM   #5  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by housefan
Unless you copy a card exactly, I don't consider it CASing. I am inspired by something for almost all my cards. The other problem is when you sit down to make a card and you have looked at many galleries of cards it is going to be pretty hard not to use things you have seen somewhere. I may make a card with a stamp set I saw used on dozens of cards 6 months ago. I am no longer actually looking at those cards, nor could I ever find them again, but there is a good chance that not only will they inspire me but that I could come up with something very close to what I had seen. When thousands of women all buy the same stamp set, the same inks and papers, and even the same ribbon and then share pictures of their cards on the internet, it is just going to happen. I would bet if you looked at my hundreds of samples, many of them would ring a bell that you had seen very similar cards elsewhere. Similar is not CASing.

I still maintain that if you don't want others to make your cards, don't post them on your gallery/blog and include the recipe. If I give someone a recipe for my cake it is a direct offer to have them make the same cake. This is the part that baffles me!! If I don't want others to make the same cake I certainly don't give them the recipe!!

Well said!!!
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Old 03-10-2007, 06:49 AM   #6  
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I was just looking through a gallery and a card jumped out at me. My card was remarkably like hers. Now did I see her card and inadvertently case it or did she see mine? No way to know since I have no recollection of casing anything nor do I remember ever seeing her card. On the other hand, I doubt she could have cased mine from my blog, because I have a private blog that she does not have access to. A good example of how this all happens.
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Old 03-10-2007, 06:59 AM   #7  
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Okay, here's my $.02. SCS, blogs and other galleries were created for inspiration. If I post a card and someone copies it, I pat myself on the back. I consider it a complement. However, I am a crafter and not an artist; there's a huge difference. If I copy a card EXACTLY, I don't post it. That would be just silly, IMO. I think the issue is when someone copies a card exactly and tries to pass it off as their own. I know several of our artists on SCS, to whom I am greatly indebted, have been violated in that regard. Photos have actually been lifted and posted to other sites. That's just wrong. I don't think anyone minds their work being a springboard of inspiration. If they do, they should keep it under lock & key.
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:19 AM   #8  
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"Imitation is the truest form of flattery"

I'm sure I got that quote wrong, but you get the gist. When we put our cards up in the gallery it's a guarantee that it will be viewed for inspiration or ideas by a fellow stamper.

The degree of inspiration seems to be the issue here. A new technique should definately be acknowledged. It is simple courtesy for someone elses creative ingenuity. On the the other hand, a layout design needn't be(IMHO). A layout can be individualized into something totally unique from the the original design. There aren't too many 'new' layout designs left out there. Many now are variations on a theme.

I think of it from the artists viewpoint....there are tons of paintings of sunflowers, but I don't see them acknowledging Vincent Van Gough everytime. And did 'HE' acknowledge his inspiration to paint a vase of flowers (you can be sure it had been done before)? But his style and technique are unique and often imitated (and usually acknowledged).
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:38 AM   #9  
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I always post a link to the card that inspired me, assuming I can find it again. It's easy to do and courteous to the other person.
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:50 AM   #10  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa Loiselle
I know several of our artists on SCS, to whom I am greatly indebted, have been violated in that regard. Photos have actually been lifted and posted to other sites. That's just wrong.
I can't imagine pulling a stunt like that! Now I get why I see those watermarks on photos. I kept wondering what the point was.

After reading everyone's comments I think I get it. Thanks for the honest input.
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Old 03-10-2007, 07:51 AM   #11  
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Here is a link to several discussions on Julie's blog regarding this. Julie is perhaps one of the most eloquent writers on this subject (and many more in the rubber stamping field) that I know, and takes the time to explain and respond to comments and queries posted by her readers.

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap...ghts_and_.html

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap...the_point.html

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap..._love_and.html
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:31 AM   #12  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa Loiselle
Okay, here's my $.02. SCS, blogs and other galleries were created for inspiration. If I post a card and someone copies it, I pat myself on the back. I consider it a complement. However, I am a crafter and not an artist; there's a huge difference. If I copy a card EXACTLY, I don't post it. That would be just silly, IMO. I think the issue is when someone copies a card exactly and tries to pass it off as their own. I know several of our artists on SCS, to whom I am greatly indebted, have been violated in that regard. Photos have actually been lifted and posted to other sites. That's just wrong. I don't think anyone minds their work being a springboard of inspiration. If they do, they should keep it under lock & key.
I completely agree with this.
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:31 AM   #13  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Valerie11
Here is a link to several discussions on Julie's blog regarding this. Julie is perhaps one of the most eloquent writers on this subject (and many more in the rubber stamping field) that I know, and takes the time to explain and respond to comments and queries posted by her readers.

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap...ghts_and_.html

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap...the_point.html

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap..._love_and.html
I read the first link and stopped there. That car analogy IMHO is over the top and like comparing apples to oranges. Now, if she were providing and preparing all of the workshop stuff for free for me, then it might be a reasonable comparison.

I was with another direct sales company last year where it was common practice (and encouraged by those who designed the workshops) to use someone elses concept for a workshop provided you gave them a little shout out at the workshop. No need to ask permission. The templates were posted for all to use. I guess I'm like that. I'm just warm and fuzzy that you like my stuff so much you'd want to use it.

I'm not bashing anyone here, just saying that I personally don't work that way. But it is good to know who does not want their stuff to be used. I'm thinking that I'll just not look at those members' artwork so that there is no chance of me duplicating anything they've done. I mean this genuinely, not in a snotty way.
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:43 AM   #14  
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i agree that the car analogy is over the top. This kind of thinking is what just amazes me. These are stamps that are mass produced that many of us use. We then use the same papers, etc. When people give the recipe for cookies is is so others can make the same cookies. On this site people give the recipes for cards so others can make the same cards. I think this is much ado about nothing.
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:28 AM   #15  
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If you think the car story is over the top let me tell you a story about what happened to me.

We bought the center of our subdivision (38 acres). Included in that land is a 12 acre pond. We stock the pond with fish (at our expense) and let neighbors go down and fish with the understanding that it IS private property. Posted is a sign that says "Private Property fishing is allowed by permission only. Catch an release only. No boats please. blah blah blah."

A house came up for sale in our neighborhood and on the listing sheet (and newspaper ads and online ads) there is a picture of my pond with the house........with "beautiful house, with a pond for your boating and fishing pleasure". Ummmmm no. They were using this ad (and my pond) to sell their property.

The car analogy is pretty much the same as my pond story. When something is used for personal gain(contests or any other submissions, using someone's art for your business websight, selling cards, ect.....)permission should be asked first. Personal use is totally different and that to me is what CASEing is about. No permission needed there.
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:54 AM   #16  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by housefan
When people give the recipe for cookies is is so others can make the same cookies. On this site people give the recipes for cards so others can make the same cards.
Very true!

And if you made those cookies, and one of your friends loved them so much and asked for the recipe, would you tell them it was your recipe, or would you tell them you got it from a friend/website/tvshow, etc?
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:56 AM   #17  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanne S

A house came up for sale in our neighborhood and on the listing sheet (and newspaper ads and online ads) there is a picture of my pond with the house........with "beautiful house, with a pond for your boating and fishing pleasure". Ummmmm no. They were using this ad (and my pond) to sell their property.
OH...MY...GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:16 AM   #18  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trudee
OH...MY...GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's pretty much what we said........hehe
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:18 AM   #19  
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Oh and the worst part......that the pond is not even visible from that house.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:27 AM   #20  
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Well Jeanne, don't leave us hanging. What did you do?
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:30 AM   #21  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by trudee
Very true!

And if you made those cookies, and one of your friends loved them so much and asked for the recipe, would you tell them it was your recipe, or would you tell them you got it from a friend/website/tvshow, etc?
If they personally knew the person I would give credit. If the recipe were from my great aunt's sister in-law's neighbor I would not give credit. I would not pass it off as mine since everyone knows I could not come up with a recipe if my life depended on it. I took an aspargus casserole to a potluck yesterday and made copies of the recipe for everyone. I have no idea where I got the recipe, which is also true of many of the cards I make.

To give credit at stamp club for a card made by Joanna Doe means nothing to them. I usually just say I got it off the internet and leave it at that. It is kind of like telling a joke. When I hear one I don't write down where I heard it and when I tell it to a group I don't give credit since no one cares.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:34 AM   #22  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Valerie11
Here is a link to several discussions on Julie's blog regarding this. Julie is perhaps one of the most eloquent writers on this subject (and many more in the rubber stamping field) that I know, and takes the time to explain and respond to comments and queries posted by her readers.

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap...ghts_and_.html

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap...the_point.html

http://papertrufflez.typepad.com/pap..._love_and.html
Thanks, Val!

There were a few folks that couldn't seem to participate without berating others, or alternative views, but for the most part, it has been very lively, respectful discussion!
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:40 AM   #23  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by cincimom
Well Jeanne, don't leave us hanging. What did you do?
I called the realtor......her response:

"How do I know you own that property?"

I didn't even bother to respond. I told her to hand me over to whoever was in charge of the office. The flyers and ads were pulled later that afternoon.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:42 AM   #24  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanne S
If you think the car story is over the top let me tell you a story about what happened to me. . .

We bought the center of our subdivision (38 acres). Included in that land is a 12 acre pond. We stock the pond with fish (at our expense) and let neighbors go down and fish with the understanding that it IS private property. Posted is a sign that says "Private Property fishing is allowed by permission only. Catch an release only. No boats please. blah blah blah."

A house came up for sale in our neighborhood and on the listing sheet (and newspaper ads and online ads) there is a picture of my pond with the house........with "beautiful house, with a pond for your boating and fishing pleasure". Ummmmm no. They were using this ad (and my pond) to sell their property.
O M G !!!

Quote:

The car analogy is pretty much the same as my pond story. When something is used for personal gain(contests or any other submissions, using someone's art for your business websight, selling cards, ect.....)permission should be asked first. Personal use is totally different and that to me is what CASEing is about. No permission needed there.
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:46 AM   #25  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by annieworm
I know what "case" means but I'm a little unsure of what's considered casing and what's just being inspired. If I make something exactly as someone else did, that's casing. But, if I see a card or whatever I like and switch out say the stamps and cardstock colors but use the layout, is that still casing or is that being inspired? And do I need to give credit for the inspiration?
Just my two cents' worth... (OK, by the time I get it all out, it may be up to a nickel... )

I think part of the problem is that there are different definitions of "CASE" floating around the crafting world, which makes the interpretation of "casing" very broad.

One definition is "Copy And Steal Everything". My personal take on this one is that I don't like the negative connotations of the word "steal". I interpret this definition as Crafter B makes a nearly exact duplicate of Crafter A's card, although Crafter A hasn't given a recipe for his/her card.

Then there's "Copy And Share Everything". I feel this would mean Crafter A gives a recipe for his/her card and Crafter B makes one very much like it.

My favorite definition of CASE is "Copy And Selectively Edit". To me, this means Crafter A posts a card (and hopefully lists the supplies used, as a courtesy to other people who are interested in knowing how the card was made). Crafter B makes a similar card, but changes it in some way so it's not really a duplicate - maybe changing the colors, or the stamps, or the embellishments.

No matter which definition one wants to use, I think it's important to give credit whenever and wherever it's due and whenever and wherever it's possible.
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:06 AM   #26  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanne S
I called the realtor......her response:

"How do I know you own that property?"
O M G !!! again!!!

Quote:

I didn't even bother to respond. I told her to hand me over to whoever was in charge of the office. The flyers and ads were pulled later that afternoon.
I'm still shaking my head in disbelief . . .
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:12 AM   #27  
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Originally Posted by PH in VA
Just my two cents' worth... (OK, by the time I get it all out, it may be up to a nickel... )
That made me chuckle!

Quote:

I think part of the problem is that there are different definitions of "CASE" floating around the crafting world, which makes the interpretation of "casing" very broad.
Agreed!

Quote:

One definition is "Copy And Steal Everything". My personal take on this one is that I don't like the negative connotations of the word "steal". I interpret this definition as Crafter B makes a nearly exact duplicate of Crafter A's card, although Crafter A hasn't given a recipe for his/her card.

Then there's "Copy And Share Everything". I feel this would mean Crafter A gives a recipe for his/her card and Crafter B makes one very much like it.

My favorite definition of CASE is "Copy And Selectively Edit".
To me, this means Crafter A posts a card (and hopefully lists the supplies used, as a courtesy to other people who are interested in knowing how the card was made). Crafter B makes a similar card, but changes it in some way so it's not really a duplicate - maybe changing the colors, or the stamps, or the embellishments.

No matter which definition one wants to use, I think it's important to give credit whenever and wherever it's due and whenever and wherever it's possible.
I like that one, too!
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:33 AM   #28  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by housefan
i agree that the car analogy is over the top. This kind of thinking is what just amazes me. These are stamps that are mass produced that many of us use. We then use the same papers, etc. When people give the recipe for cookies is is so others can make the same cookies. On this site people give the recipes for cards so others can make the same cards. I think this is much ado about nothing.
Let me ask you this, in regards to the hypothetical cookie recipe. Say you provide the cookie recipe to a friend, who in turn bakes those cookies for a bake off with a substantial prize involved, and then that person wins. What would your reaction be?
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Old 03-11-2007, 11:48 AM   #29  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Valerie11
Let me ask you this, in regards to the hypothetical cookie recipe. Say you provide the cookie recipe to a friend, who in turn bakes those cookies for a bake off with a substantial prize involved, and then that person wins. What would your reaction be?
Mine would be "Good for her". I have yet to pass on a recipe that wasn't passed on to me first. I don't make up my own food dishes, tweek them maybe.
I just wanted to clarify that I don't submit unoriginal work or pass someone else's stuff off as my own, ever. My question was referring to the galleries on this site only.
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Old 03-11-2007, 11:52 AM   #30  
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Originally Posted by Jeanne S
I called the realtor......her response:

"How do I know you own that property?"

I didn't even bother to respond. I told her to hand me over to whoever was in charge of the office. The flyers and ads were pulled later that afternoon.

Unbelieveable! I kinda though it was a realtor's job to know what they were listing (and not listing). It's such a great world we live in.
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Old 03-11-2007, 11:55 AM   #31  
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Originally Posted by annieworm
Mine would be "Good for her". I have yet to pass on a recipe that wasn't passed on to me first. I don't make up my own food dishes, tweek them maybe.
I just wanted to clarify that I don't submit unoriginal work or pass someone else's stuff off as my own, ever. My question was referring to the galleries on this site only.
Ditto!
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:28 PM   #32  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Valerie11
Let me ask you this, in regards to the hypothetical cookie recipe. Say you provide the cookie recipe to a friend, who in turn bakes those cookies for a bake off with a substantial prize involved, and then that person wins. What would your reaction be?
I'd like to think I could put on my big girl panties and be happy for her, but truth is, I'd be hurt. It's one thing to copy something for your own pleasure. It's entirely another to profit from it and fail to give credit where credit is due.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:30 PM   #33  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Valerie11
Let me ask you this, in regards to the hypothetical cookie recipe. Say you provide the cookie recipe to a friend, who in turn bakes those cookies for a bake off with a substantial prize involved, and then that person wins. What would your reaction be?
Gets tricky, doesn't it?

For example, a friend of mine posted about a cake she'd made. Everybody requested she post the recipe.

But, the recipe was from a book, and copyrighted. She gave the source of the recipe, so folks could go purchase a copy of the book, and thereby not violate the author's copyright.

I've had situations in the past where I posted a finished creation, that used a copyrighted pattern. People asked me to scan and post the pattern or transmit it electronically.

I heard comments to the effect, of "Well, I don't wanna purchase the whole book just to get that pattern!"

Whether or not we like it, to have posted the pattern would have been a violation of the author and publisher's copyrights. I didn't create the pattern, and I don't own the copyright on that pattern nor the book.

If I were to use that pattern for a finished project for publication, it is my responsibility to first acquire permission from the copyright holder for such use. And, in many instances, publishers have a clause stating this in the contracts for each piece accepted for publication. In some cases it is granted, with proper accreditation to the copyright holder as the source, and in other cases, it may not be granted.

In order for me to acquire the pattern for my personal use, I had to purchase a copy of the book. It is therefore reasonable to assume that anyone else must do likewise.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:32 PM   #34  
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Originally Posted by Lisa Loiselle
I'd like to think I could put on my big girl panties and be happy for her, but truth is, I'd be hurt. It's one thing to copy something for your own pleasure. It's entirely another to profit from it and fail to give credit where credit is due.
I concur.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:39 PM   #35  
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If you read a recipe on a blog you really tell all your guests who originated the recipe when you serve it?
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:27 PM   #36  
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You know, the debate can go on and on, and, for sure, there are various perspectives. Perhaps the analogies only serve to confuse things . . .

So, I'm not gonna offer any more of those. I lost power 3 hours ago, and as I puttered around in my studio, trying to take advange of the fading daylight . . . I pondered some more . . .

I tend to think that what it all boils down to is being respectful of, and courteous towards, each other as fellow artists.

Now, maybe you (general "you", this is not directed at anyone specific) consider yourself an artist, and maybe you don't. Either way, it doesn't matter.

Maybe I consider myself an artist, and you do not consider me as such. Either way, that doesn't really matter.

Maybe stamping is a hobby for you, and, you consider anybody else who stamps as also being a hobbyiest. Again, that doesn't matter either.

But, perhaps, when we get beyond the realm of personal use what does matter:

While individual X may not mind at all that anyone else copy her publicly displayed works, right down to the last detail, specifically to pass it off as her own for inclusion in a portfolio where others will be assessing the originality of her work for employment, submitting it for a contest where a brand new studio, valued at $5,000, is the prize, or being featured in a publication, etc., is it good practice to assume that *every* individual feels the same, in that regard, about their works?

I know what can happen when I make assumptions . . . So, I try not to. chuckle!

Is it a bad thing, that if I loved someone's work so much that I wanted to copy it, whether fully or in part, did so, AND, when I displayed my copy of it publicly, wanted to thank them for the inspiration by crediting them for it?

And, how can can it be a bad thing, if, before I use copies of their work for personal gain, that I ask their permission for such use?

How can the desire to extend courtesy and respect, or to consider the ramifications to someone else, before I do something, people to people, everything else aside, be a bad thing?

We all make choices. I personally choose to do that which I believe to be courteous. And, with regards to anything beyond personal use, I choose to do that which I believe to be ethical.

Others will believe and do as they so choose; I can't control any of that.

I can just control me.

And, Lisa Loiselle?

I pondered some more on that, too . . . if I were your friend, I'd like to think I'd be friend enough that I'd enter the contest with my own recipe, rather than use yours without asking.
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:08 PM   #37  
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Yep. What she said!!
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:25 PM   #38  
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Being new to stamping, this whole CASEing thing caught me by surprise. I tend to be more of the "if I posted it and you like it, you can use it" mentality. I'd love to know if something I did inspired someone, but I wouldn't be offended if they didn't cite me. I will be better citing my inspirations from now on

To me, copying layout is fine, even without attribution because as far as I can tell, there are only so many things you can do with squares and circles on a 4 1/4 X 5 1/2 piece of paper (Yes, I only have a circle punch and a paper cutter.)

Maybe the easiest way around the whole thing would be to have something I've seen on photo sharing sites like flickr.com where you can state up front how you will allow others to use your work and use variations of the creative commons license(for example: all rights reserved, share and share alike, noncommercial use only, attriubtion required). I'm not quite sure how most of that really translates to stamping, but at least you'd know if the person really cared about attribution and could avoid hurt feelings.
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:26 PM   #39  
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Originally Posted by housefan
I was just looking through a gallery and a card jumped out at me. My card was remarkably like hers. Now did I see her card and inadvertently case it or did she see mine? No way to know since I have no recollection of casing anything nor do I remember ever seeing her card. On the other hand, I doubt she could have cased mine from my blog, because I have a private blog that she does not have access to. A good example of how this all happens.
A very similar thing happened with me and my upline a few months ago. We were both participating in a "by invitation only" swap hosted by a fellow demo, and were working on our cards simultaneously in two different cities three states apart. Never talked to each other once about the swap, yet somehow ended up with two extremely similar designs, right down to the color scheme, layout and background stamp choice! It was freaky, I tell ya!
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:02 PM   #40  
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I think it's just polite and gives positive reinforcement to the original stamper to give credit to a great card that gave you inspiration or *cased*. We all like validation, even the really talented ladies. I know that being new to stamping there is NO way I could make any of the cards in my gallery without some inspiration or casing. It's just how we get started in the craft.

At first I was a bit embarrassed to admit I cased a card, thinking somehow people would think "gee, can't this girl do anything creative on her own?", but after awhile, and with further validation with the Featured Stamper Challenge, I am comfortable with admitting I case the gallery for inspiration.

I only upload cards that I have made my own in some way. When I make an exact copy of a card I don't even consider casing -it's just copied, and I don't upload those. JulieRRR, I copied your DARLING cosmobella card for my 1/2 sister tonight! She will LOVE it! I didn't upload it, but will leave you a comment stating as such. That is nice too.

I think this community is full of talented and encouraging women, I have made some PM friends from super talented ladies mearly by mentioning what an inspiration they are to me. What goes around, comes around! Just my 2 cents!
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