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-   -   Mounted vs. Unmounted Offshoot Poll (https://www.splitcoaststampers.com/forums/general-stamping-talk-17/mounted-vs-unmounted-offshoot-poll-249994/)

kiraj 05-18-2007 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scpd
Since the *boxes* would remain the same size, the space on the pick line would not have to change at all -- just the product mix! If each set's current space in the line is stocked with, say 100 sets, that would remain the same -- but perhaps 30 of those would be without the wood and the other 70 would have the blocks. The difference between the two would be very obvious to the picker, and shouldn't slow the process at all. True, it might take awhile to refine the mix, but that would be the case with any change.

Sue


Except that as it was pointed out earlier, the system they use right now does include pickers, but they don't read slips. They are simply told how many of the item to put into the box. This shows up on an lcd display. Twice as many stamp sets would require twice as many of these displays, and more workers to man the lines. Thus more cost.

I personally really like unmounted, but know that I can get those elsewhere if I want to. I appreciate that SU is only wood mounted, and would not want to see an increase in product cost to be afforded the choice.

Cynamom 05-18-2007 08:09 AM

Personally, I think that soon SU will not have any option but to offer this and if it means totally retooling everything they do, they they'll just have to do it. It's about the buyer, not the seller. That's just how it goes. It's the cost and headache of business, hard or not.

Cindy

Jenmouer 05-18-2007 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahloumel
I am not convinced that the unmounted stamp users are necessarily "a small segment of the population", or that they will continue to be so. At CHA 2007 there were a lot of big companies launching unmounted stamp lines. Granted, those were photopolymer stamps but still would create interest and demand for unmounted stamps in general in my reckoning. Large companies like Stampendous, Inkadinkado, and KI Memories all offer unmounted stamps in addition to wood mounteds. I don't think they would do that if it was just me, housefan, and Skittle who used unmounted stamps, and everyone else in North America prefers wood mounteds. Like you say, comparing SU to Stampendous is comparing apples to mushrooms in a sense, but at the same time I think Stampendous et al. offering unmounted options speaks to the growing number of stampers who are excited about and prefer unmounted stamps.

Oh I agree with you there are more and more companies out there offering the UM option...and for single image stamps I understand...heck I even own a few myself...
Most of the larger companies only offer UM by way of acrylic - like Stampendous and Inkadinkado - you can either get wood mounted rubber stamps or UM clear stamps...good business sense as they are covering both "sides" of the market...

Jenmouer 05-18-2007 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynamom
Personally, I think that soon SU will not have any option but to offer this and if it means totally retooling everything they do, they they'll just have to do it. It's about the buyer, not the seller. That's just how it goes. It's the cost and headache of business, hard or not.

if their bottom line is being met and they are growing why would they HAVE to?

in the world of non-neccessities it ain't about the buyer...cause if you have extra $$ to spend you are going to spend it however you see fit

annieworm 05-18-2007 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ch
It is threads like this that make me realize I just wasted way too much time!!! I should have been stamping!!!! Thanks Belindaking for trying to be a voice of reason, but I don't think the op wants information. Just a place to complain. jmnsho


Was that really neccessary?

The "op" never asked if you thought SU could handle the change, she just wanted to know what options others might be interested in. It's other posters who are sharing their infinite wisdom in manufacturing (I've only seen one say that they have experience in such things) that are causing housefan to maturely disagree with the "it can't be done" mentality. If you think SU can't do it fine but don't expect everyone to conform to your ideas.

It's a shame that scs is turning into the sort of place where your opinion is only welcome if you'll agree with everyone else.

Oscar T. Grouch 05-18-2007 08:24 AM

I voted unmounted as a wonderful option. Sure the pick line and processing would have to change a little but the amount of wood saved, the space saved, the shipping saved are all areas that would save SU money.

Mahloumel 05-18-2007 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynamom
Personally, I think that soon SU will not have any option but to offer this and if it means totally retooling everything they do, they they'll just have to do it.

I agree; I think it is entirely feasible that the stamping market could undergo a shift to where SU!'s bottom line will no longer be met by keeping their stamps as-is. I think it is also feasible that SU will continue to devote themselves to the wood-mounted niche, but seeing as I prefer unmounted stamping options I am of course focusing on the hope that SU will change. :D

TJStamper 05-18-2007 08:50 AM

I have a question for those of you who believe SU! CAN go unmounted or offer both "easily" and at little to no cost. Why do you think they won't do it then?

Mahloumel 05-18-2007 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJStamper
I have a question for those of you who believe SU! CAN go unmounted or offer both "easily" and at little to no cost. Why do you think they won't do it then?

I think a big part of it is there are a lot of details that SU would need to consider and work out. Belinda and Jen have done a great job explaining why the UM options may not in fact be cheaper to provide to their customers initially or even over the long run. With any change in products, a company can only afford to give the change a limited time period to show some success. With all the details and options, SU would want to put a lot of thought into every part of the process to ensure success and the ability to react to potential flaws in their reasoning. I think SU would want to come up with something like one-year, three-year, and ten-year plans to manage any switch they make to offering wood-free options.

All that being said, I think the potential financial and market benefits of offering both WM and UM options to their customers are great enough that this is something they ought to consider seriously. I don't think this is something SU should dismiss out of hand, and I don't think this is such an impossible venture for SU if they were dedicated to doing it.

TJStamper 05-18-2007 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahloumel
I think a big part of it is there are a lot of details that SU would need to consider and work out. Belinda and Jen have done a great job explaining why the UM options may not in fact be cheaper to provide to their customers initially or even over the long run. With any change in products, a company can only afford to give the change a limited time period to show some success. With all the details and options, SU would want to put a lot of thought into every part of the process to ensure success and the ability to react to potential flaws in their reasoning. I think SU would want to come up with something like one-year, three-year, and ten-year plans to manage any switch they make to offering wood-free options.

All that being said, I think the potential financial and market benefits of offering both WM and UM options to their customers are great enough that this is something they ought to consider seriously. I don't think this is something SU should dismiss out of hand, and I don't think this is such an impossible venture for SU if they were dedicated to doing it.

Thanks Mel ... I understand why SU! won't do it ... I do believe there are real costs associated with making that sort of change but there seem to be a few people here who do not believe it would be difficult or costly at all for SU! to make this change. So my question to those individuals is - if you feel SU! can really do this with little to no financial impact to their company, then why do you think they won't do it? What do you think it is that prevents SU! from making this super simple change?

scrapmo 05-18-2007 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJStamper
Thanks Mel ... I understand why SU! won't do it ... I do believe there are real costs associated with making that sort of change but there seem to be a few people here who do not believe it would be difficult or costly at all for SU! to make this change. So my question to those individuals is - if you feel SU! can really do this with little to no financial impact to their company, then why do you think they won't do it? What do you think it is that prevents SU! from making this super simple change?


Again, having worked in the industry, specifically solving these types of problems, it can be done and for less. Anytime you save money in raw materials, warehousing, or transportation, you save money, period.

They probably are hesitant because as Julie pointed out it is their niche. Could be they have long term contracts to buy so much wood, they could be waiting to be freed from these contracts. Do they cut their own blocks, they may owe too much money on that equipment to shut it down.

Sometimes it is an old fashioned attitude that we have always done it that way. There is a market phenomenon where they are already past peak and they don't know it yet (didn't say are, said could be). The market place is changing quickly, they maybe starting down and they don't even know it yet. Hopefully they are keeping well ahead of the curve.

deeth1 05-18-2007 10:38 AM

Many rubber stamp manufacturers are changing their product lines to reflect customers preferences and feel the costs involved in the changes will increase their sales. Penny Black, Magenta, Hero Arts, MSE, CTMH, Impression Obsessions, Inky Antics, Stampendous, Posh Impressions, Art Gone Wild, Art Impressions and several others all developed new clear acrylic product lines in the past few years because they felt there was a demand for unmounted stamps. I did a search on Addicted To Scrapbooking and found 98 pages with hundreds of clear stamp sets offered. They wouldn't stock that many if they weren't selling well.

While I understand the poll/debate is not about clear acrylic or polymer type stamps this change in product line by many different companies reflects the shift in what many stampers are buying and using.

greatdaneaddict 05-18-2007 11:25 AM

I voted that I would be unhappy because as a demonstrator I don't want to demonstrate stamping with unmounted stamps because I don't enjoy stamping that way.

greatdaneaddict 05-18-2007 11:27 AM

And I should clarify further that as a demo I feel I should be able to represent all products in the catalog, and if that's not something I know (or care to know) anything about, then I would not be doing my job.

I will stick with wood mounted and if my customers are interested in going unmounted, I will direct them to the right company. NBD.

ikimom 05-18-2007 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulieHRR
But, without first-hand, factual knowledge of how the entire process is structured, and the costs involved, consumers cannot assume that providing two options is one that is feasible, easily implemented, nor that it is in the company's best interest to do so.


Thank you to Scrapmo (experienced manufacturing engineer - see post #54, 64 & 91) and Scpd (cost accountant - see post #80) for adding their professional industry knowledge to this discussion. That is not first-hand granted, but the principles apply to most business models, it's taught in college business courses. Being an analytical type myself, their insights are much what I had surmised.

SU doesn't need to offer the option now, but they will if buying trends change. Buying trends change with the economy at large. Large businesses such as SU have business plans for dealing with these economic changes. I'm looking at the economy beyond the stamp world and see that if disposable income drops, it forces changes in luxury purchases such as hobby supplies. Economics 101.

I'm quite surprised that this is such a heated discussion. But, the psychology of dealing with change would perhaps explain it. In the meantime, it doesn't change our common bond and love for SU, that's why most of us are here. Stamp on!

~ Kathy

scrapmo 05-18-2007 12:13 PM

This whole thing has me really curious, I am going to have to see if they have any Manufacturing Engineering Job openings so I can uproot my whole family and provide the inquiring minds of SCS the answer to this question.

scrapmo 05-18-2007 12:40 PM

You know, if they went to just plain rubber, they would also save on glue and foam and the step to assemble them.......

bluesh4rk 05-18-2007 12:40 PM

I'm guessing that SU will have to change with the marketplace if the market does go totally away from wood mounted stamps. At this point it doesn't really seem like they need to. There are plenty of companies only doing wood mounted stamps still. I'm also guessing that they keep it in the back of their minds and discuss it from time to time. It probably just isn't a direction they want to go right now if their business is still growing and strong with wood mounted. KWIM?

BTW I hardly think a poll answered by less than 250 people out of how many thousands of users on SCS is representative of the marketplace. Not to mention that the whole of SCS is only a segment of the market.

I actually answered YES to UM on the poll because I think it is a growing segment and it would be nice to offer both but I personally prefer wood mounted myself. If SU never offered UM I wouldn't be bent out of shape and if they did offer UM I wouldn't be bent out of shape. The only reason I buy anything UM is due to availability of the image I want.

bluesh4rk 05-18-2007 12:44 PM

Oh BTW I do know that my LSS is really leaning toward offering more and more UM stamps because of the space savings. Tho are still selling tons of UM sheets that you have to cut out yourself and don't have cushion or anything else but the rubber and they are priced the same or even higher than some SU sets. I really shy away from those kinds of purchases. I'm not sure how well that stuff is selling because I've noticed that they are cutting these sheets up and reselling the images individually because the sheets aren't making it off the shelves... and then they are making even more money because the individual ones they are selling are for more $ individually than the collective package which I thought was too expensive in the first place. *whew*

Stamps are a luxury! You get what you pay for, and you pay for what you like. :D

SouthernStorm 05-18-2007 01:16 PM

Ultimately, it's SU!'s decision. I would love for SU! to change their 'niche' and cater to UM people as well as WM people. Sure, there would be many changes forced by this decision. That's what companies do, they change what they need to as dictated by consumer demand. That will change policy all the way down to the demos. They will have to offer SU's wares or resign. It's the bottom line - PROFIT! I've personally never bought a SU! stamp set through a demo or SU! online... however they do that. I have bought several sets from SCS'ers on the B/T forum. SU! makes quality rubber stamps and I would love to buy, buy, buy. Unfortunately, I have just so much spendable cash and loving to stamp with UM's, I can not justify paying for materials I do not want - not when I can buy nekkid rubbah far cheaper! I have a long and growing list of websites that offer quality singles or sets that are WM or UM. I'm not a clear stamp fan so this list doesn't include them. Bottom line- if SU! don't change, I will continue to not buy their stamps. From all the threads I've read here, I honestly feel there are a whole lot of rubbah buyers that feel the same as I.
This posting is WHY I want SU! to offer UM as an option.. simply MHO! I think I'll leave all the business aspects to them, they're far better qualified to discern the necessity than I.
May God bless, Stormy

Stampin Wrose 05-18-2007 01:17 PM

If this was touched on, I missed it.

If SU! were to offer unmounted, are we assuming JUST the rubber, and people would have their own mounting blocks?

Or are they supposed to offer the mounting blocks too?

You don't think they'd offer just the rubber and thus send them to another company for the base?

ikimom 05-18-2007 01:36 PM

Hi K.O., was it the hot discussion that drew you over here from CE? hahaha.

I think if they offered UM, they would also offer a top quality acrylic block to use with the rubber stamp. In various sizes. I have acrylic blocks, about 6 or 7 total, in sizes ranging from 1" square, to a big rectangle that would accomodate background stamps, and a 2x12" block for border stamps. I haven't unmounted my SU backgrounds though, I just took them out of the case and then they don't take up so much room. I do have unmounted backgrounds from other companies though.

Others have mentioned that they could offer the EZ-Cling as a separate purchase or with the stamps. I stamp the image on the back of the EZ cling (the thick version is gray on back unlike the thin that is black).

It's all speculation, pipe dreams.....

~ Kathy

NYstamper 05-18-2007 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housefan
All I know is that there are plenty of companies out there that accomodate both options. What do they have that SU could not duplicate?

I think that the point is that it would be an issue of space(they would have to move to a bigger location or add on) and major rearranging is space additional staff possibly. Both would be a major investment. Major investment means prices go up! Simple math really. I understand that prices are going up across the board with everything( gas, food, utilites,etc). I know it sounds so simple, just don't put the wood blocks in. But, you would have to have the stamps either plain rubber or ezmount, set up another area for storing things, and another line, workers to staff it,etc. I understand that those who don't use the blocks don't want them and I totally understand that. It would be nice to have the option for those who don't want them. But, I am sure there are some creative ideas out there for using, selling or recycling them. The other point Belinda made was that it might also lead to smaller selection. Sorry, but that is something I for one don't want! I like that there is such an awesome selection. I do have both unmounted and mounted and in all honesty I prefer my wood mounted sets hands down. I had thought about going unmounted but decided it isn't for me. Maybe down the road things will change. For all we know they could be in the works and they are trying to work out the logistics of it all. But I think that what it boils down to is we all have different views of how we think things should be. But we don't have anybody doing research for our opinions. This issue has probably been brought up to SU many times and, maybe after looking at the big picture, they have decided it would be too costly at this point in time. I'm sure they have hired people to research and give them a list of pro's and cons and I don't think that they just fly by the seat of their pants and just decide to do or not do without thinking it thru. If that were the case, they would be out of business very soon.

NYstamper 05-18-2007 02:11 PM

It's a shame that scs is turning into the sort of place where your opinion is only welcome if you'll agree with everyone else.[/QUOTE]

I think that the problem stems from having several threads of the same discussion going and lets face it we are probably 99% women here...I think that it is all of the estrogen flowing into the keyboards.:mrgreen: I think sometimes it is hard to just take a step back and not take anything as a personal attack.
It is hard to voice an opinion in print as the body language, etc do not show and you don't really know how it will come across. I think some vailid points have been made on both sides and it has been discussed alot. I don't think that you need to just agree the sake of agreeing, but when you have overkill on a subject I think people tend to get a little touchy about it.
I work in retail and it is hard for people to understand some aspects of how things are run and why don't you carry this, another store does. It is a matter of the company putting out there what they feel is best and most wanted by their customers. I do think that eventually unmounted will be an option, but things like that do not happen overnight. Unmounted has just started to be a big thing with more vendors doing it. So I say just give it some time and hopefully they will find a way to make everyone or most everyone happy. (I only say that because the old saying is that you can't make everyone happy.)

Stampin Wrose 05-18-2007 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikimom
Hi K.O., was it the hot discussion that drew you over here from CE? hahaha.

I think if they offered UM, they would also offer a top quality acrylic block to use with the rubber stamp. In various sizes. I have acrylic blocks, about 6 or 7 total, in sizes ranging from 1" square, to a big rectangle that would accomodate background stamps, and a 2x12" block for border stamps. I haven't unmounted my SU backgrounds though, I just took them out of the case and then they don't take up so much room. I do have unmounted backgrounds from other companies though.

Others have mentioned that they could offer the EZ-Cling as a separate purchase or with the stamps. I stamp the image on the back of the EZ cling (the thick version is gray on back unlike the thin that is black).

It's all speculation, pipe dreams.....

~ Kathy

LOL! Yeah, I was so bored over there... JUST KIDDING!!!

I was just amazed that it would BE so hot! I wouldn't mind choices. When I first started, SU! offered wood mount or rubber mount!!!!!!!

Mahloumel 05-18-2007 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose
I was just amazed that it would BE so hot!

Hot but civil! Or at least I'm reading just about everything here as being civil. :)

daisyboo 05-18-2007 03:23 PM

This is such an interesting discussion! Obviously, there are MANY factors that go into any decision to make ANY change. Even something as simple as adding new ribbons or designer paper must be carefully considered!

I do have a question for everyone. For purposes of this question, let's assume that the cost of WM does NOT go up and that any changes to the manufacuring/picking process do NOT increase the cost of production. Therefore, I am asking this based strictly on the cost of the wood.

What would be a fair discount for not getting the wood? In other words, how much does the cost of the wood actually add to the cost of a stamp set. To sell mountable at $20 and UM at $16 is a 20% difference. But does the wood actually add that to the price? Or would it be more like a 5% difference or $1?

TJStamper 05-18-2007 03:35 PM

Housefan - can I pick your brain? You seem to be very well informed about the creation and manufacturing costs involved with producing rubber art stamps. It looks like you have an inside track the rest of us do not ... I think most of us are just into it for the hobby but you appear to have a keen awareness of the actual business side of running a company like SU!. I really and truly thought a change like this would be costly and take some time but after reading the information you have provided it seems SU! really should be able to implement offering unmounted stamps quickly and easily, yet, for some reason they are not doing it. Why do you think that is? What is your opinion about their motives? I would love to know what you think ...

Topaz_n29 05-18-2007 03:37 PM

Well i like unmounted..for storage space and price -wise. I do buy unmounted and have no problem w/them..and yes su is of an excellent quality. All the the info bout "picking' etc. is so corn-fusin to me..lol.
But am releived to know that when i tell them in a resturant a cheesburger w/no relish ..that it doesn't dissrupt a picking line and makes me pay more for my burger..
loves ya

housefan 05-18-2007 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJStamper
Housefan - can I pick your brain? You seem to be very well informed about the creation and manufacturing costs involved with producing rubber art stamps. It looks like you have an inside track the rest of us do not ... I think most of us are just into it for the hobby but you appear to have a keen awareness of the actual business side of running a company like SU!. I really and truly thought a change like this would be costly and take some time but after reading the information you have provided it seems SU! really should be able to implement offering unmounted stamps quickly and easily, yet, for some reason they are not doing it. Why do you think that is? What is your opinion about their motives? I would love to know what you think ...

I think it is because a very strong public statement was made about never making this change. It was a promise and I think it is probably about saving face.

luv my dolly 05-18-2007 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housefan
I think it is because a very strong public statement was made about never making this change. It was a promise and I think it is probably about saving face.

Where did you read this statement?? I thought Shelli said something about never going with clear stamps.

TJStamper 05-18-2007 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housefan
I think it is because a very strong public statement was made about never making this change. It was a promise and I think it is probably about saving face.

Really? Where did you see/hear that? I've never heard that but I don't read many magazine or go to any conventions or anything like that...

housefan 05-18-2007 04:24 PM

It has been said on several threads both on SCS and another board that Shelli has said they would all be woodmounted and never consider unmounted.

TJStamper 05-18-2007 04:31 PM

Huh, that's interesting ... I've never heard that before. I can't imagine Shelli would say something like that considering it could potentially limit her options going forward. From what I've learned about her she's pretty savvy about her business and her customers.

Do you think that is the sole reason why SU! currently offers only wood mounted stamps?

Stampin Wrose 05-18-2007 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv my dolly
Where did you read this statement?? I thought Shelli said something about never going with clear stamps.

Yeah, that's what I remember hearing.....

They had rubber mounted before, as recently as 1999... I'll go look in an old catty....

kiraj 05-18-2007 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose
Yeah, that's what I remember hearing.....

They had rubber mounted before, as recently as 1999... I'll go look in an old catty....

Not rubber mounted, foam mounted.

Stampin Wrose 05-18-2007 04:36 PM

Oops, excuse me, Foam mounted.

In the 1999-2000 catalog, for many sets, you could choose either wood mounted or foam mounted.

They had no more foam mounted in the 2000-2001 catalog. I was just a customer then, so have no other info.

Stampin Wrose 05-18-2007 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiraj
Not rubber mounted, foam mounted.

Right, what you said. LOL

housefan 05-18-2007 04:40 PM

Well, mabye I have been mislead. I have heard more than once that she publicly announced SU stamps would always be wood mount and that she would never consider not.

ikimom 05-18-2007 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daisyboo
I do have a question for everyone. For purposes of this question, let's assume that the cost of WM does NOT go up and that any changes to the manufacuring/picking process do NOT increase the cost of production. Therefore, I am asking this based strictly on the cost of the wood.
What would be a fair discount for not getting the wood? In other words, how much does the cost of the wood actually add to the cost of a stamp set. To sell mountable at $20 and UM at $16 is a 20% difference. But does the wood actually add that to the price? Or would it be more like a 5% difference or $1?

My experience with multiple vendors offering the option with wood or without is that the UM rubber is sold at 40-50% discount. I prefer to say you pay 50% more for the wood though. However, I think SU could fairly offer a 30% discount for the rubber with the cling foam attached. Yes, the cost of the wood is that much - factoring in the costs that Scrapmo (an experienced manufacturing engineer) stated so well in her comments. Cost of wood: the tree farmer, transporting from farm to sawmill, milling the different widths, shaping the hand grip, sanding, cutting to size, transporting to manufacturing site, storage, sorting and matching blocks to each set, and of course the extra weight and bulk to send to the customer). Not a first hand knowledge expert, but I think it's a good ballpark estimate.

SU doesn't need or want to do it now because they think their niche market is strong enough. Right now, it's not worth the bother for them. But, that can change. At some point, which cost analysts can predict using various economic models, the scale can be tipped to where offering UM is in SU's best interests. Don't know when or if, but my guess is that it will be eventually.

I wonder, does the example of TAC offering an option of mounted or UM and then quickly finding the demand for the higher price wood mount disappear frighten some of the wood mount fans here? Are you afraid that the same would happen with SU? I would hope not, as it seems there is a healthy market for both options. Does the thought of you having to pay what might eventually become considered "extra" for the wood bother you? The price with the traditional wood shouldn't really increase much because I think the extra volume of sales of UM rubber would increase the SU bottom line. The professional knowledge provided by Scrapmo and Scpd earlier in this thread support that idea. Just guessing.

~ Kathy


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