Thank you Sally.

I'm not sure I can see how this fits into you being curious about housefan's motives. Whenever I see the 'dead horse' comment on SCS, it comes across to me as belittling, impolite, sarcastic, and dismissive of a person's earnest desire to learn more about other perspectives and engage in rational discourse. Obviously there are a fair number of folks here who are SU fans and also have an interest in unmounted stamps, and would like to discuss the possibility of SU offering unmounteds/wood free stamps. Without threads like these, I never would have learned so many cool details about SU's picking line from belindaking. And, if everyone "stopped beating this dead horse" as you put it, SU would never know that any of their customers would very much like for them to offer wood-free stamps in addition to wooded stamps. Who knows, maybe in ten years they might offer them because of customers talking about it and asking for it!

OK, I like scenarios, so here's one for this situation.

SU decided to offer both mounted and unmounted. They decide to expand the distribution center (which they did build with the intention of expanding someday, so it's plausible) so that they don't have to cut down on the image selection or accessories.

Now they have two options for a set... let's say that unmounted is $17, and mounted (well, mountable-- you still have to put the stamps together yourself) is $22. This same set is one that was priced at $20 in the catalog before. So it is less expensive for those who like unmounted stamps, but the price has jumped for those who want wood with their rubber. Those who have liked their stamps mounted the whole time, thank you very much, are now the ones paying for those who like unmounted stamps.

In addition, because of the increase in cost for the pick line and the manufacturing facility, ALL the rest of the products (inks, papers, embellishments, etc.) must also have a price increase. Inkpads are now $6.50, card stock is $7, brads are $12, etc. How long would we the consumers bear these higher prices?

And is that fair to those who prefer mounted stamps to bear the cost of offering unmounted stamps?

For the sake of argument, let's say SU only passes on the increased cost of dealing with unmounted stamps to those who purchase unmounted stamps. In that case, the set of unmounted stamps is the same $20 as the set of mounted stamps. SU can't afford to absorb this new cost of doing business, and it's not fair to pass along the cost to everyone. Who is going to purchase the unmounted stamps now?

The two main reasons I hear for unmounted is "cost" and "storage." Well, now you *might* please all the "storage" people, but you've lost the "cost" people altogether because they simply won't do business with a company that so clearly is out to fleece them. I mean, how can they offer UNmounted stamps for the same cost as mounted stamps when they are not even needing to include the wood, larger case, and sticker?

Hmmm.

Until SU is ready to offer both types of stamps without sacrificing cost (as I've shown above) or selection (picture a 100-page catalog), I stand by my vote that I would be unhappy with an option. As soon as they are financially and physically (with the distribution center, manufacturing facility, and packaging) ready to offer both options, I will be happy to support the company I have chosen to represent. :)

The way things are right now, one could say that those who like unmounted stamps are being asked to pay more to maintain the status quo that caters to the preferences of the wood-mounted types. From that perspective, the unmounted folks are subsidising the wood mounted folks' purchases! :)

The way I see it, if/when SU starts losing its market share they will find it more than worth their while to revamp the picking line and offer both UM and WM options. I can't be the only UM stamper who is "voting with her wallet" and spending most of her stamp budget at businesses other than SU, even though I really like a lot of SU's images and would buy them more often if I didn't also have to deal with the wood blocks, mental block of paying for wood blocks, etc.

Very interesting way of putting it, btw!!

Yup! Well said Mahloumel!

She wasn't stirring the pot. She was asking questions and when Belinda replied, she responded with more questions. What's the problem? For some people, threads that are controversial or subject to many opinions seem to get many peoples' panties in a knot.

Free speech and all that, right????????

I LOVE SU and have recently started unmounting my sets...If they offered the option of the sets w/o the woods blocks they would not only save money, they would be saving natural resources: trees on the wood blocks, chemicals and by-products for the plastics cases, gas and emissions on the lighter packages they were shipping, etc. Also, not sure if this has ever been mentioned: say the WM prices stayed the same, and UM were 20% less ($16 vs $20). Shipping would be $1.60 for UM, and $2.00 for WM. They would be making a substantial profit on shipping alone! I'm not trying to debate the profitability of SU, my demo is worth her weight in gold. I just hate not having the option of buying UM. If I could get the sames sets for the same price w/o the wood blocks I would, just b/c it would generate less trash for me. I know I can sell the wood blocks and cases, but that involoves time, money, and shipping, yet again. I am a die hard SU fan, I won't stop buying from them for any reason (unless they go clear), but I REALLY wish they offered the option.

However, since the company is currently set up as wood-mounted and will probably not do without the wood (because of that nice little tree farmer in Washington state that they don't want to put out of a job ;) ), there would be a considerable cost in going to unmounted while customers who would always buy unmounted are probably in the minority.

Sounds like we have the makings of another poll here. ;)

oops, i voted wrong!! i meant to say either way is fine w/me, and i would still choose mounted over unmounted, however- i don't see it happening w/SU. At least not any time soon.

Maybe there should have been a choice for EITHER WAY IS A-OK? dunno... d;)

Belinda, I appreciate your explanations of the pick line and how that affects SU's current decision to offer wood only option. Well said, thank you! We need to see all sides of the debate.

The professional statiscal anylsyts can project at what point economic factors tip the scale in favor of offering unmounted as an option (or horrors, UM only). That is, at what point would the investment needed to change the pick line be less than the loss of market share and decreasing sales. Who knows, maybe in a few years, maybe never. So much in our economy is affected by the cost of gas. Nearly every product you buy. Gas prices up, all costs go up, but when salaries don't rise to meet that difference, then disposable income goes down. The craft industry is part of the disposable income market, not the necessities. Yeah, soooo many of us like to think of our precious stamps as necessities (it's my art therapy!), but more and more people have to cut back on that luxury when there is economic pressure. The stamp world - the pulse of the American economy.

Ok, now my creative side is anxiously and excitedly awaiting what will be in the big new catalog. LOL, can you tell I'm a Gemini? My two sides are in conflict. Now my analytical side is wondering how many ways to serve beans and rice before ds and dh complain. :p

~ Kathy
(Disclaimer: I really don't think the increased costs on paper and ink and other things are unreasonable, they are still good value. It's only the wood cost.)

Don't be sorry, there are obviously plenty of people who are very interested in the debate and are able to express their ideas and opinions without undue anger. Nasty comments only reflect badly on those who speak/write it. I don't see a 'motive', it is not 'stirring the pot' any more than anyone elses opinions or questions. Ladies, we are trying to have a civil, informative debate here. Honestly, did we not learn these things in Kindergarten (everything you needed to know.....)?

~ Kathy

Since, technically, the stamps are already sold UM, it seems a bit silly to me to NOT offer the option to skip the wood blocks.

As a SU demo - I would be UNHAPPY if they offered both ways...I as a demo would have to know my way around the UM rubber world and acrylic blocks and such...not that I don't have some - I do - I fell in love with an image or two and UM was the only way it was offered - I just don't like using them and pull them out only once in a while (most of what I have are specility stamps) and I would be hard pressed to be enthusiastic to my customers about UM

In reality offering them both ways will COST the company money...

I know you are saying - but NO - without wood blocks prices will be cheaper and shipping will be less because it will weigh less...

Umm if you break it down - the wood mounts probably cost pennies when compared to the design and manufacturing of the rubber images themselves...

You would have to reconfigure your printing materials to reflect both mounted and unmounted uses...you would have to reconfigure your ordering system and picking and packing line to reflect both unmounted and mounted options...all this costs....$$$$$

Ok - so now you don't have wood blocks...but you need to provide the customers with something to use their unmounted on - which leads to the use of acrylic blocks and some form of cling system...and then again how does one predict how many people would buy UM vs Mounted...so you either wind up with to many wood mounts (which are packaged and designed to fit a particular image) and therefore wasting $$ or have too few and wind up with poor customer service because you don't have them ready and available....

Think about the BIG THREE - SU, TAC and CTMH....they all service a certain NICHE in the stamping market...
SU - wood mounted rubber
TAC - UM rubber
CTMH - Acrylic

It is easier and cheaper for smaller companies to offer both options being as they don't have a large # of employees or a ton of overhead (i.e. large buildings to house employees - production lines, etc...)

Think of TAC - awhile back they offered both mounted and UM...it was probably in their best BUSINESS decision to go to full UM because it was better on the bottom line to make a final choice of UM or mounted...they probably looked around and said hummm well SU is mounted and CTMH is acrylic - lets go the other way to the UM rubber niche...and I would bet that in the next year or so you might see a price increase in TAC sets...as they grow they need to add more people to thier staff...update thier production and computer support + the cost of raw materials going up...would not surprise me in the least....

The bottom line is this...SU sells wood mounted rubber stamps thats it - thats all....sure you can ask them all you want to sell them UM - but I am pretty sure they have probably looked down that road and researched it to bits...and found that it is not feasible for their business to offer the option...

As a manufacturing engineer I am not following you. The product goes down the line, the first part of the run they add the blocks, the second they don't. As for the warehouse, If the slot is only wide enough for one stack I see the problem, but if they could put two stacks there, it should work, as the decrease in demand for one product would result in an increase in demand for the other. Lastly if the need for wood is reduced by 50% that should free up some storage space for the wood blocks.

I love my acrylic blocks and I love SU! So, if by some chance they decided it was a good business decision to offer both mounted and unmounted you can bet I'd buy unmounted and use my blocks. They're the big cheese though, so they can figure out all the nitty gritty details :-)

Many companies who offer unmounted don't bother to offer the acrylic blocks. Additionally, I don't see how that could be a bit of a problem. They are able to offer an array of punches, papers, inks, tools and that hasn't slowed them down. I am sure they are astute enough to be able to come up with acrylic blocks without completley undoing their whole plan and throwing things into chaos. (In reference to post #53). Additionally the point about not being able to predict how much they would need? Well that is true of EVERY new item they bring on. Some things have fallen totally flat instantly and no one died. Others caused great demand unexpectedly. This is just the way it goes in retail.

At the manufacturing facility-- they still have to have some sort of packaging for the rubber-only, plus (as Jen pointed out) you'd need the different kind of cling foam on the UM option, or cling stuff added to the UM packaging for the customer to stick on.

At the distribution center... I found a picture form convention last year to hopefully make that process more clear:

http:////www.splitcoaststampers.com/...27109?cat=7420

At the right you see a conveyer belt with boxes of orders. Melissa (on the right) is holding a scanner-- just like at the store-- to check what order is in what box. At the left you see boxes on shelves with lcd lights beneath the box. The lcd lights up and shows the number of that particular item that goes into the order box. There are only so many lcd-light spots available for product to sit at-- it's not a matter of squeezing stuff closer together.

Another "picking" picture:
http:////www.splitcoaststampers.com/...22926?cat=7420

If other companies could figure it out, I bet SU might be able to too! They could use the same packaging. Some here store their stamps without the wood in the SU boxes and many are going to transfer them to CD's or books anyway. The packaging is not the issue. Or don't package them at all. Without but 2 exceptions, the UM companies I order from simply put them in a bubble envelope. Saves postage and makes them even cheaper.

Hit submit too soon :) I think SU has been around a long time and offers hundreds of kinds of products with out redesigning their plant every time. I think you are underestimating their ability to problem solve.

One thing I could see SU wanting to maintain is the cachet of their presentation. I would love for them to just send me a sheet of rubber and they can keep all the odds & sods, but I could see SU wanting to present their product in a way that is in line with their current distinctive branding and marketing efforts. Even TAC ships their blue rubber sets out in a clear clamshell to make their product stand out from the multitude of companies that sell sheets of red rubber dies. Maintaining this cachet adds to the cost and effort, but presentation is as important to SU or TAC as it is to Tiffany's; I couldn't imagine Tiffany's would *ever* give up its distinctive blue packaging or trademark bow. I wonder if SU's committment to presentation goes beyond the labeling and packaging, and extends to include being wood-mounted too? Is asking SU to consider giving up the wood akin to asking Tiffany's to give up the distinctive ribbon and bow?

Thank you Belinda for such well educated posts! I certainly have learned a few things reading it and I've been a SU nut since 1998 and a demo since 2005. Loved the pictures too!

You know SU did used to offer a rubber mounted option back when I started purchasing them. It was never an option for me because I want the wood but what I can remember is people being very confused at workshops as to the options and what they really meant. I can still see that being a problem today for new stampers. SU stopped that option so there must have been a very good reason for that.

I don't know really as a demo if I would have issues with it but I would certainly have to educate myself because I have never considered using unmounted rubber or acrylic. What I would have issues with is if going to that option meant less selection or higher costs.

I don't remember a rubber option. I do remember those horrible old foam stamps. They somehow figured out how to adjust and make the change when it became clear that those were not what the customers wanted any longer.

I am a demo and I think it would be great for SU to offer stamp purchase w/o the wood blocks. I personally prefer the wood blocks when I stamp though. I think Belinda offers some great insight into why it might not be a good idea for SU to go that route - or why they haven't gone that route. It would take a huge investment in their part to offer two options and it would most certainly have to be passed down to the consumer in some fashion.

One other thing that I didn't see mentioned is that SU *could* be mounting the stamps at the factory but they don't. You have the option of doing whatever you want to do to the stamps - that is the beauty of it. Maybe those of you with wood blocks you never use could trade them with those that choose to mount all their stamps, even the ones that were specifically meant to be UM.

I don't think this is as difficult as you think it would be. SU changes what they have to offer frequently, so they are by design set up for agile manufacturing. Warehouseing and transportation are very high costs in manufacturing, anything that reduces that will reduce overall costs. Also just reducing raw materials adds alot to the bottom line. If I am following you, they seem to move those wood blocks 3 times (4 if they buy them precut) Each time the product is handled and stored (we will ignore the process and sorting of lumber into blocks)
1. Lumber to the facility
2. Transportation to the distribution center
3. Transportation to the customer

The cling could be a separate item, that is added at a separate pick location. They may even want to treat that as a separate order items as there are so many ways to stick unmounted stamps.

I think that the savings in manufacturing and blocks and shipping could easily offset the cost of two options. I also think that an increase in sales would also make this an attractive option. There would be a cost to setting up this change, but it would have a very short and high ROI, because there is so much to gain, and so little to lose.

I would love to go out to SU and conduct the cost analysis - I love being a SAHM, well not today but most days, but I miss working out puzzles like this. It would be so cool to do a study on a product that I love!

Other companies are a LOT smaller than SU..if you look at the FEW companies (I know of 4-5 off hand and they all seem to be very small, single image, few people operations at this time) that offer the same image as Mounted or UM...I am sure you will find that they are a very small operation...and not a "corporate" entinity...if you look at thier UNMOUNTED single image price it would equate to the cost of SU wood mounted single image stamp...

Let me do a scenerio....
1 Gina K Chicken Dance unmounted - $4.95 http://www.allthatscraps.com/index.p...03082c336be0b1

SU Best of Cluck - 7 stamps - $22.95 = $3.28 EACH STAMP (with wood blocks)...5 of the stamps are the same size - if not LARGER then the one chicken dance Gina K stamp.

So by SU offering UM - it would not change the pricing all that much - the cost of the stamp sets are not determined really by the wood blocks...like I said previously wood blocks are basically pennies....smaller companies pay MORE for wooden blocks to mount thier stamps on because they buy in smaller quantities...their cost for the blocks are passed on to you as a consumer...see what I am saying....when TAC offered both mounted and UM they were a smaller company so thier cost per wood block was probably higher - which showed as a difference in the price of UM and mounted - KWIM...
so in reality IF a company like SU offered UM vs Mounted the price difference would in reality not be all that much difference because you truely aren't paying that much for the wood blocks...
so for say a $25 set they charge $20 for UM...in the end you save what maybe $6 when all is said and done with shipping....if you really love the images is a few bucks going to sway you...maybe - maybe not....
While you may thing that offering UM would make a huge price difference - sad to say it really wouldn't because AGAIN at the volume at which SU purchases the blocks it probably makes them a very small $$$ part of the whole set - KWIM

Jenni, so you think a company as big as SU just has it's hands tied or are unable to problem solve such an issue? Tell that to the really BIG companies who are constantly adjusting to the consumer.

I'm not sure I understand what SU's problem is they need to solve. Their decision is to offer wood mounted stamps.

I agree with one of the other posters that as a demonstrator I would only want to demo one product.

I honestly don't see it as they have a problem to solve. They've decided on what kind of product to offer to customers and that's that. Could it change? Anything's possible. But I don't really see it as a "problem". The small percentage talking about it on here is NOTHING compared to their customer base world-wide who seem to love their product as is.

Wow! Who know this would be such a "hot button" issue? It was a very simple question, would you be happy or unhappy with the OPTION to have unmounted. The question was not is it feasable for SU to offer us this option, nor did she say anything about the logistics. It is interesting to see how the factory works...but in the end, isn't it the same as asking if you would like the OPTION of being able to choose the price point of the stamps? I mean, the chances of them doing it are very slim. They have, after all built their company into the "woodmounted" niche.

Would I LIKE to see them offer wood mounted? Absolutely! I would love to see a lower price point on a few of their items. Don't get me wrong, I am a big SU customer, and will continue to be, even with the wood. However, when I hold a workshop, there are some girls that have a very low budget, and would like to be able to get a stamps set or two that is less than $15. With the exception of the wheels, there are only a few that are priced at $11.95, and that will be going up with the Fall/Winter catalog.

But, if we are going to talk about logistics, couldn't they just "sell" the wood separately? I mean, we have to mount it ourselves anyway, and that way the cost would only be put on the ones that want the wood. They could maybe offer wood and acrylic blocks, and even sell the easy-mount cling sheets.

Ok, there's my 2 cents, but with rising prices, it's worth less than ever. Do I honestly think that SU will in the near future offer wood-less stamps? No way. Would I like the OPTION to purchase wood-less stamps at a lower price than with the wood? Yeah, I think that would be totally cool.

Housefan....keep up the great discussions. I'm with you!

It is threads like this that make me realize I just wasted way too much time!!! I should have been stamping!!!! Thanks Belindaking for trying to be a voice of reason, but I don't think the op wants information. Just a place to complain. jmnsho

I think what Belinda, Jenni, and others are saying is that additionally providing UM as an option, and at less cost than WM, isn't necessarily simple nor inexpensive, as some would like to believe it is.

UM and WM are consumer preferences.

SU! has built its business on catering to the consumer that prefers WM. (niche)

They've done very well and the company has grown and expanded by catering to this specific market. Unless or until they actually suffer a loss in market share, due to this specialization, it would be illogical for them to pursue offering the option of UM, in addition to the already popular and well-selling WM.

But, without first-hand, factual knowledge of how the entire process is structured, and the costs involved, consumers cannot assume that providing two options is one that is feasible, easily implemented, nor that it is in the company's best interest to do so.

but it's not an issue....they don't offer UM...I was simply stating my opinion and the way I see the current market - just saying that IF a bigger company decided to go an unmounted route the cost would not be that great of a difference....

You can not compare a huge company to a smaller speciality store...

I don't see to many BIG companies adjusting to thier customers...I think a lot of them are of the mindset of - we have this product - either you buy it or you don't...

Smaller companies are born out of the niche of certain consumers wanting a particular item...think of certain stamp/scrap companies that probably would have NEVER existed if not for SCS and would probably not be making very much money if not for places such as SCS...they take the ideas of thier core target market and create what is not out there...which is why SMALLER companies have more flexibility to bring current ideas and trends to the market in a faster manner...

I am sure SU has done market study after market study....in looking at everything as I stated previously by offering stamps UM would only be a few $$ difference and the overall bottom line is - is it worth it in the long run the change what works to cater to a small segment of the population as a whole...would a few $$ difference really bring in a ton more orders....

I won't jump into the debate about which is better, but I think the poll numbers are interesting. 79% would like SU to offer the option of both unmounted or mounted.

When it is a smaller company, they can hand pick and pack everything - but with a huge distribution center handling the volume that SU does - I think it's like comparing apples to oranges.

Dude, that was pretty contemptuous and rude. I hope you are happily stamping up a storm now!

I honestly think the poll speaks volumes.

well sure everyone loves having choices

I am not convinced that the unmounted stamp users are necessarily "a small segment of the population", or that they will continue to be so. At CHA 2007 there were a lot of big companies launching unmounted stamp lines. Granted, those were photopolymer stamps but still would create interest and demand for unmounted stamps in general in my reckoning. Large companies like Stampendous, Inkadinkado, and KI Memories all offer unmounted stamps in addition to wood mounteds. I don't think they would do that if it was just me, housefan, and Skittle who used unmounted stamps, and everyone else in North America prefers wood mounteds. Like you say, comparing SU to Stampendous is comparing apples to mushrooms in a sense, but at the same time I think Stampendous et al. offering unmounted options speaks to the growing number of stampers who are excited about and prefer unmounted stamps.

Thank you Julie!!!! Well said.

As a former cost-accountant, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on some of your reasoning, Belinda. Admittedly, I have NOT seen the SU pick lines, but I have spent a fair amount of time in manufacturing environments. I don't really think it would be all that difficult to simply leave the wood blocks out of the boxes on the 'UM' sets! Everything else could remain the same -- rubber on cushion (if people choose not to use it, they can peel it off) and stickers in the box. Easy! True, this is a *production* aspect of the process, rather than a picking one. I'm getting to the picking... ;)

Since the *boxes* would remain the same size, the space on the pick line would not have to change at all -- just the product mix! If each set's current space in the line is stocked with, say 100 sets, that would remain the same -- but perhaps 30 of those would be without the wood and the other 70 would have the blocks. The difference between the two would be very obvious to the picker, and shouldn't slow the process at all. True, it might take awhile to refine the mix, but that would be the case with any change.

If the picking is done mechanically, there would have to be some adjustments made to the *configuration* of the space -- but it still should not require a large increase in the space required! Any reasonably competent floor manager (and I'm sure that SU's are!) could come up with an efficient and cost-effective way to handle the issues a change in the mix on the line would produce.

I only see cost-reductions involved if SU offered a 'wood-free' option -- some of which would certainly be passed on to the consumer. It's a win-win all around, from my point of view! :mrgreen:

Happy trails....

Sue