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Old 06-21-2006, 01:55 PM   #1  
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Question Casing to sell?

I apologize for not knowing the proper etiquette, but is it considered improper to sell a card seen on Splitcoast, in a magazine, or other published place? I wouldn't think there would be a copyright infringement, but I am unsure. I have seen so many beautiful cards that I would love to make. . . is it okay to sell them?
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:08 PM   #2  
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As far as I'm concerned, if you're talking about selling at a craft fair or something local like that, I don't see a problem. You are, actually making these items yourself, even if you didn't "design" them.

If you are talking about selling them to a publication of any kind, then no, it's not really proper. One, because publications don't want to publish it if it's been published elsewhere. Two, it's just not right to take credit for a design you didn't come up with.
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:14 PM   #3  
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Here is some valuable information on Copyrights. JulieHRR shared this link awhile ago. I personally would not try to profit off someone else's design.

http://www.colorado.edu/copyright/facts.html

HTH!
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:09 PM   #4  
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Copyright means the exclusive right to reproduce, but it doesn't mean the copyright owner can't grant that right to others. So, I would ask the owner of the copyright. Some people may not mind, and grant you the right to use their design. Some may not want you to use their design, but it surely wouldn't hurt to ask.
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:08 PM   #5  
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I personally believe that if you were to take someone else's intellectual or creative ideas and present them as your own, especially if it were done for profit, and without that person's knowledge or permission, it would amount to plagiarism!

It's one thing to CASE for the fun of it, and that might be actually flattering to the original creator; and I agree with Betsy that it might even be okay to sell CASED items that you have made, since you'd be selling your own handiwork, but if you are taking an item that you have copied outright, and then state that it's your own design, that definitely would be crossing all ethical, if not legal, boundaries. Just my 2 on the matter.

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Old 06-21-2006, 06:54 PM   #6  
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I definitely didn't have intentions of passing them off as my own original designs--I was talking about selling them only at craft fairs. . . thanks for the responses
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Old 06-21-2006, 10:45 PM   #7  
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So say I design a card and post it here. That doesn't make it copyrighted, does it? If someone were to make it and call it their own design I would consider that a form of plagiarism but can't say that I could actually call it copyright infringement.
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Old 06-21-2006, 11:09 PM   #8  
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Personally, if someone wanted to use one of my designs, I would appreciate they ask me. I probably wouldn't mind and would give permission but if I just saw something for sale that I designed I would probably be miffed. I think a lot of it has to do with personal opinion. I just think out of respect, the original designer should be asked first. JMHO.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:50 AM   #9  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Novell
So say I design a card and post it here. That doesn't make it copyrighted, does it? If someone were to make it and call it their own design I would consider that a form of plagiarism but can't say that I could actually call it copyright infringement.
Taken from the article I posted above (emphasis mine):
Quote:

As soon as a work is put in material form (printed, published, put on a website, recorded, filmed, etc.), it is copyrighted, and therefore protected by copyright law.
I understand that to mean yes, it's copyrighted. Maybe someone who is educated in copyright law could chime in and confirm?
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:16 AM   #10  
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I guess the question is whether or not this site is a public place. The article says, "Some works are placed in the public domain and therefore are not or are no longer copyrighted."

It does sound like the consensus is to ask first. . . you can't go wrong that way
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:34 AM   #11  
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Agreed!
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:47 AM   #12  
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Not that my cards are all that fabulous, but what do I care if someone CASES a card of mine and sells 50 of them? Doesn't affect my morning cuppa joe one iota.

I don't know that I have a single original thought as far as stamping. I get layout ideas here, Stamping Success, Take Ten, etc. All of my work takes off from ideas I see. So when I change paper color, stamp sets, embellishments, is that an "original design" or is it a CASE? Where do you draw the line?

If you're going to make an exact copy of someone's card to sell, I can see asking permission. If you're taking inspiration and changing it up a bit, I don't think it's necessary. Maybe my attitude is because I've been sewing for so long, and I still hear about "trade dress" issues all the time. You know how it works, as soon as a model walks down the Calvin Klein runway, there are 5 other companies copying the dress and selling it (at 1/10 the price) at the local Macy's. And that is perfectly legal.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:12 AM   #13  
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Exclamation Aah, the ins and outs of the legal system....

Not being a copyright lawyer, I can only write from my experience in copyrights, as both my sons hold copyrights on music they have written. Here is what the CU article states:

How copyright works
As soon as a work is put in material form (printed, published, put on a website, recorded, filmed, etc.), it is copyrighted, and therefore protected by copyright law. Some works are placed in the public domain and therefore are not or are no longer copyrighted. Most commonly, the creator of the work holds the copyright and therefore the exclusive right to the reproduction and distribution of it. Sometimes the person who hired the creator holds the copyright and is the only one who can reproduce and distribute it.

Correction to my original post here--thank you scoopy. Copyright, once the item is in final form, IS automatic, but is NOT defendable in a court of law without it being formally filed. If someone gets hold of, for example, a piece of my son's music and records his or her version of the words, without the formal filing of the copyright, it is virtually impossible to defend his rights to the song.

Now, as we can see in many posts on this site, Stampin Up! holds *all* copyrights to all the images. No other person may hold a copyright on items made with those images. Stampin Up! allows us to use those images for our creative energies, we have essentially "paid" for the right to use them by purchasing them from SU! They also have extended us the right to sell items made with those stamps, according to their Angel Policy.

I know this does not deal with the ethics of whether we ought or ought not to sell something that we have CASE'd off this site (I remember the discussion recently as to whether we ought to always identify who we CASE'd from if we post a card we did CASE), but hopefully some legal issues are somewhat clarified.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:26 AM   #14  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by stampinandascrappin
I guess the question is whether or not this site is a public place. The article says, "Some works are placed in the public domain and therefore are not or are no longer copyrighted."

It does sound like the consensus is to ask first. . . you can't go wrong that way
Public domain and "a public place" are not the same thing.

Posting something for all to see doesn't mean you are putting it in public domain- Mickey Mouse is all over the place, but not public domain yet.

Public domain means you release the rights to it so anyone can use it without any restrictions.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:06 AM   #15  
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"Copyright exists from the moment a work is created." This is explained in this helpful FAQ - straight from the US Copyright Office.
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:30 AM   #16  
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Excellent info, thank you!
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:26 AM   #17  
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I have been doing more research (concerned with using something from a magazine where I would have a lot of trouble contacting the designer) and at the front of the Paper Crafts magazine it says, "Readers may create any project for personal or use or sale, but may not hire others to mass produce a project without written permission from Paper Crafts."

So at least I am okay w/those designs. . .
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:13 AM   #18  
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I make cards for craft shows and have not had a problem. One person asked me about it once and I replied "Most of them are my original ideas, however I utilize other sources for inspiration"

Not that I CASE everything - but If I had my original idea of my own out there and someone claims I copied it - and I didn't (it's possible to have two people make two very similar cards on their own!) then who should be credited? It's possible someone could have a copyright on a design I haven't even seen.

I do quite a few swaps with other demos and it's amazing how some can be so very close in design...and they aren't CASEing (unless they happened to pick out the same design in a SCS gallery!)
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:15 AM   #19  
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Novell
So say I design a card and post it here. That doesn't make it copyrighted, does it? If someone were to make it and call it their own design I would consider that a form of plagiarism but can't say that I could actually call it copyright infringement.
My thoughts exactly. Just my two cents - I understand that someone designed the card and that it is their "intellectual property" - but the whole purpose of this website is to share, so if you don't want it CASEd, don't post it. Haven't we all CASEd designs from here, or Inspiration Sheets, or somewhere else? However, on the other hand, I don't think that you should take credit for something that isn't yours - regardless if it's a card, recipe, or what-have-you. So, if you're just making it, and selling it - but not claiming it to be your own personal design, I don't see a problem with it.
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:40 AM   #20  
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Thank you, scoopy, I have corrected my previous post concerning when, technically, something is copyrighted.

I will reiterate, however, Stampin Up! owns the copyrights on all images produced by them. Our making a card, which is a form of visual expression in a final form (which under US copyright law would *technically* give us the protection of a copyright) does NOT give us copyright protection. Someone else owns the copyright. It is more a situation of our being "licensed" to use their product. They have expanded the legal uses of those stamps in allowing us to sell items we have made with their images. That is the reason for companies stating an angel policy in the first place, otherwise, we *could not* sell items made with the stamps.
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:49 AM   #21  
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To add to my previous post...here is the definition of an Angel Company.

What is an "Angel Company"?
It's a company that makes graphics (such as rubber stamps or clip art) that grants a limited license to sell things made with their images.

This usually includes:
Being allowed to sell handmade crafts bearing an image that the company owns and sells (for example, using handstamped impressions on handmade greeting cards for sale at a craft fair or boutique).
Crediting the original company somewhere on the craft work.

This usually does NOT include:
Mechanical reproduction of the image (for example, photocopying),
Creating another rubber stamp from the original.
Selling these mechanical reproductions.

Individual angel companies will have their own policies, which can be obtained by contacting the company.
Some companies don't allow crafters to use their images in anything that will be sold. They can be used in personal projects only. This is their legal right as holders of the copyrights. Angel companies respect that right, but have chosen to allow a broader license.

I hope this clarifies the holder of the copyright (it is NOT us, as a card-maker) and the licensee (it IS us--we are given special license to indulge in our passion!)
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:05 PM   #22  
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Wow! do I ever agre with you!
If it's that darn special to ya, keep it to yourself! lol! This IS the internet after all! lol!
Quote:

Originally Posted by phunkymama
Not that my cards are all that fabulous, but what do I care if someone CASES a card of mine and sells 50 of them? Doesn't affect my morning cuppa joe one iota.

I don't know that I have a single original thought as far as stamping. I get layout ideas here, Stamping Success, Take Ten, etc. All of my work takes off from ideas I see. So when I change paper color, stamp sets, embellishments, is that an "original design" or is it a CASE? Where do you draw the line?

If you're going to make an exact copy of someone's card to sell, I can see asking permission. If you're taking inspiration and changing it up a bit, I don't think it's necessary. Maybe my attitude is because I've been sewing for so long, and I still hear about "trade dress" issues all the time. You know how it works, as soon as a model walks down the Calvin Klein runway, there are 5 other companies copying the dress and selling it (at 1/10 the price) at the local Macy's. And that is perfectly legal.
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:17 PM   #23  
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Putting something in the public domain does not mean the same thing as publishing it for the public to see. The public domain usually means, for copyright purposes, that no one has nor can get a copyright on something. For example, anything published by the US government does not have a copyright on it -- it is in the public domain and anyone can take it, republish it and sell it. That's because "the public" owns it to begin with, so we refer to it as being in the public domain. For example, a report by.

Another example would be something that is so common that no one can fairly claim to own a copyright on it. For example, a mug with an apple on it for a teacher. The idea of giving a teacher a piece of junk (ok, a lovely mug, t shirt, etc) with an apple is so common that no one "owns" that particular idea. The specific design of a particular apple on a particular mug could be copyrighted.

ps. don't rely on SCS for legal advice!! this is just friendly info
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:40 PM   #24  
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I think the argument people are making for copyright lies more with the project's "design" rather than the actual line art. The placement of the bits and pieces that go into making a card for instance. Since nobody but Stampin' Up can claim true ownership of the images themselves, the only thing left for a designer to claim is the way in which those images are used.

However, I have to question the possibility of claiming ownership of any particular "sketch," or layout. Say, taking a strip of paper, running it down the center of a card front, layering an image on a coordinating piece of paper and then attaching it diamond-shaped-wise on the strip of cardstock. This "layout," so to speak, is what people are wanting to say is their own, that they came up with it. Obviously, many layouts are much more complicated than that; this is just a simplification. My problem with this is, how in the world can anybody prove the claim, "well, I thought of it first!" Impossible. Imagination is such an intangible!

What CAN a designer copyright? Well, her words or actual drawn diagrams for one. As an example, which I've used before, Julie HRR's pdf diagram of a "Noteables" junior notepad cover. The original design was not hers. That's been around for a long time. What IS hers is the actual pdf drawing that she made. Nobody is entitled to download her drawing and submit it to a magazine saying they drew it.

Another example would be a designer's written instructions for a project. Those are definitely HER words, and nobody else's. Does that mean the actual project is her copyright? Not necessarily. What if she is writing about making a simple box out of a piece of cardstock. Obviously, she is not "inventing" the box. The words she's used to instruct how to make it are hers.

Sometimes it does seem to go around and around, with semantics getting in the way more often than not. I guess folks just have to decide what they are willing to share, or not, and go from there.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:26 PM   #25  
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I would be thrilled to see copies of my stuff anywhere. We are not talking about the Mona Lisa or creations that have taken years to create. We are talking about paper and rubber stamps! These are not things that will be auctioned for thousands when discovered years from now! BTW, I have now been published numerous times and anyone, anywhere can copy and sell. Anything so precious that I would be offended by someone duplicating would not be put in a magazine or on a website. CASE away, and you don't even have to give me credit!! Many people here don't even use a real name!
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Old 06-22-2006, 07:26 PM   #26  
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okay so let me clarify this then. I can take a sketch from a sketch challenge, and make cards with it to say sell at a craft fair, but I wouldn't be able submit it to a magazine is this correct? Or can I not do either.
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Old 06-22-2006, 08:34 PM   #27  
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I think you can legally do both. Whether you feel comfortable morally would be up to you. Personally I would do it for the fair but not for a publication.
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Old 06-22-2006, 10:30 PM   #28  
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In the case you describe, I don't see a problem doing either. However, if you participated in a sketch challenge, like Susie Stamper's card so much you CASED it, and made and sold some at a craft fair, that would be (imo)fine, but since you are copying a specific card, then no, I wouldn't submit that for publication. I hope that makes sense...
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