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Old 08-31-2017, 09:00 PM   #3321
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Oh my!!!
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:40 PM   #3322
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I've got a question for you. I understand how moral correctness would help religious people feel more certain about the correctness of something (the "what would Jesus do?" thing). I don't understand exactly what they mean when they say "In contrast, moral concerns make non-religious people feel less certain." What would an example of that be?


Hi, Pam, I think I owe you a PM !


I may be late to the discussion, just read the referenced article. I wonder if the statement above would more accurately describe non-religious people if it stated "Moral concerns make non-religious people have less of an opinion, one way or the other, eg. less inclined to pick one "certain" conclusion." I would reframe it this way because many topics that are generally considered "moral" require a judgmental frame of reference- such as: the Bible says it is "immoral" to be gay. A non-religious person might state "Doesn't matter to me, be what you want to be or what you were born to be-not a 'moral' issue to a non-religious person."


To take a line from Wiccan rede "Ain it harm none, do what thou wilt".


So, what would be some "moral" issues? Doesn't the term itself come from the concept of mortal sin being unforgiveable by God? If there is no god, then no need to be concerned about forgiveness. Then, we are left with the concept of harm. Most would agree child sexual abuse may cause harm to a child and that would be a bad thing. However, there are many descriptions of "sexual abuse" and just as many levels of harm, or not harm.


Did I just feel the abrupt inhalation of breath? How can child sexual "abuse" not be harm? Depends on who, what, where, when, how, how often as well as culture, place, time and age. Hence, my conclusion that non-religious people may be less inclined to quickly come to a "certain" conclusion.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:49 PM   #3323
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:26 PM   #3324
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So, what would be some "moral" issues? Doesn't the term itself come from the concept of mortal sin being unforgiveable by God? If there is no god, then no need to be concerned about forgiveness. Then, we are left with the concept of harm. Most would agree child sexual abuse may cause harm to a child and that would be a bad thing. However, there are many descriptions of "sexual abuse" and just as many levels of harm, or not harm.
I don't think the word came from mortal sin.

At any rate, having grown up Catholic, I can tell you that a priest does forgive a Mortal Sin. First, there are three components to a mortal sin. First, it must be a grievous act. Second, it must be premeditated. Third, you have to actually do it.

So a lesser sin might be to wish someone dead, but a mortal sin would be to plot the crime and carry it out.

Then you would have to go to the priest and confess it.

I do think you are onto something in that the non-religious person might see more sides to every issue.

Although I personally think that if you can call it "abuse" then it's wrong. But whether it's a lesser sin or a mortal sin, that would depend.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:48 PM   #3325
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Kathy, thanks for the clarification on the mortal sins. I was just throwing out a wild guess- no Catholic background here.


Examples of how people describe "abuse" range from (sticking with sexual context) rape to children of the same age playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". Rape is wrong but children exploring is not wrong, even if someone else, usually a sputtering adult, calls it abuse. Additionally, the children's play is not harmful, but the adult's reaction may be harmful.


That is what I meant about just because one person calls it abuse, does not necessarily mean it reaches the level of true abuse, nor would it necessarily be wrong. Similar for acts of BDSM, depends on the situation-consent changes lots of acts from harm to pleasure.
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:47 AM   #3326
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Kathy, thanks for the clarification on the mortal sins. I was just throwing out a wild guess- no Catholic background here.


Examples of how people describe "abuse" range from (sticking with sexual context) rape to children of the same age playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". Rape is wrong but children exploring is not wrong, even if someone else, usually a sputtering adult, calls it abuse. Additionally, the children's play is not harmful, but the adult's reaction may be harmful.


That is what I meant about just because one person calls it abuse, does not necessarily mean it reaches the level of true abuse, nor would it necessarily be wrong. Similar for acts of BDSM, depends on the situation-consent changes lots of acts from harm to pleasure.
I think for something to be accurately called 'abuse' there has to be a power imbalance. So two kids experimenting, and both consenting, is not abuse. But if one forces the other to participate, then that's abuse
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:48 AM   #3327
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Anyway, the reason I'm here is because I've just seen this: More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey - BBC News
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:18 PM   #3328
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Anyway, the reason I'm here is because I've just seen this: More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey - BBC News
Wow - awesome news! I suspect you would get similar results in NZ. A good point is made at the end of the article: The (Humanist UK) charity's chief executive, Andrew Copson, said: "More generally, how can the Church of England remain in any meaningful sense the national legally established church, when it caters for such a small portion of the population?"

I found another link within that article on how the Church of England is discussing holding services to acknowledge transgender people transitioning. That would be an excellent example to other churches.
Church of England votes to explore transgender services - BBC News
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Old 09-04-2017, 01:13 PM   #3329
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A good point is made at the end of the article: The (Humanist UK) charity's chief executive, Andrew Copson, said: "More generally, how can the Church of England remain in any meaningful sense the national legally established church, when it caters for such a small portion of the population?"
That IS a good point. However, having seen (on here, largely) the so-called separation of church and state in the USA, I'm not sure that route is any more attractive. No doubt if our church and state separated, the only difference we'd see would be a reduction in bank holidays - and nobody wants that!
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Old 09-04-2017, 01:16 PM   #3330
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I found another link within that article on how the Church of England is discussing holding services to acknowledge transgender people transitioning. That would be an excellent example to other churches.
Church of England votes to explore transgender services - BBC News
Stephanie
That's encouraging - but it still makes me mad how some people can believe that God created X, Y and Z but gay and trans people are somehow unacceptable. If God created them, how can they be wrong? I suppose that then comes down to whether it is a 'choice' or not. Too weary to go there...
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:23 PM   #3331
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Kathy, thanks for the clarification on the mortal sins. I was just throwing out a wild guess- no Catholic background here.

Examples of how people describe "abuse" range from (sticking with sexual context) rape to children of the same age playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". Rape is wrong but children exploring is not wrong, even if someone else, usually a sputtering adult, calls it abuse. Additionally, the children's play is not harmful, but the adult's reaction may be harmful.

That is what I meant about just because one person calls it abuse, does not necessarily mean it reaches the level of true abuse, nor would it necessarily be wrong. Similar for acts of BDSM, depends on the situation-consent changes lots of acts from harm to pleasure.
That's a good point, and I agree with it. What Bagpuss said too.
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:29 PM   #3332
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Anyway, the reason I'm here is because I've just seen this: More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey - BBC News
That is good news. I love how the young people are changing everything.


That's happening here too, some. And I know that if you move away from your family when you're young, and don't stay in that cocoon, it's a lot easier to skip church, and really pretty much stop thinking about "religion." You may or may not continue to abstractly believe in god.
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Old 09-17-2017, 10:27 AM   #3333
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Post It's a good thing.

I just started volunteering for Recovering From Religion. We answer calls and chats from people looking for help such as negotiating family relationships, , finding an atheist group, how to have meaning in your life and also helping religious people deal with wanting to leave the religion they are in but aren't giving up on god. We don't give specific advice more just resources.

It is very interesting. I'm glad I'm doing it. So many of the callers have gone through the stages that a lot of atheists have done. They are so grateful to have someone to talk to especially the ones who are fundamentalists.


I have also encountered trolls/apologists. It never ceases to amaze me the misleading and lies Xtians will engage in to spread their religion. We aren't supposed to laugh at them but that's what I feel like doing. We just say no thanks and hang up.


Donate! Volunteer! Refer people to us!
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:53 AM   #3334
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That is a good thing indeed! Go you!
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:25 PM   #3335
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Oh my, anyone here from Alabama? What craziness is going on in this senate election. And Trump tweets a nasty gram that Huckabee tells the press to get their minds out of the gutter. What lies that woman is willing to cover. Amazingly disgusting.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:10 PM   #3336
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An atheist in Alabama would have to be living in witness protection!

The blacks won the election for Doug Jones. Despite voting road blocks, there was a grass roots movement, ads not on TV but local billboards. Very well organized when they realized they had a chance. They got the vote out.


https://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/12/13...-evangelicals/
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Old 12-14-2017, 04:39 AM   #3337
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Pastor John speaks logic based in faith. His columns are always fascinating.

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Old 12-14-2017, 05:02 AM   #3338
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I think it is only two issues which matter to white Evangelicals. Abortion and gays. Rape, sexual misconduct, so what, who cares. As long as their candidate is pro-life and anti-gay.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:14 AM   #3339
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Have you heard McConnell isn't going to let the new guy take his seat immediately? He's planning to leave the interim senator in place for the tax vote. Under normal circumstances there is in fact a period of time before the state certifies an election and when the senator would take their seat. However, 7 years ago when the vote for the ACA was up he allowed Sherrod Brown R-MA to take his seat right away because "the voters have spoken". https://thinkprogress.org/mitch-hate...-6fdcde21d9e9/
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:16 PM   #3340
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I think it is only two issues which matter to white Evangelicals. Abortion and gays. Rape, sexual misconduct, so what, who cares. As long as their candidate is pro-life and anti-gay.
Isn't that just the craziest? Two issues that are entirely personal but they want to control what others do. Should be very simple- if YOU don't want an abortion, don't have one. If YOU don't want to "live a gay lifestyle" then don't. But what gives you the audacity or perceived right to impose your beliefs and choices on others? And why do you even care? Never makes any sense to me.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:58 PM   #3341
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Martha, I expected nothing less, after they kept the Supreme Court short for a year.

Dr. Sonja, I don't know how to get that through to these people. Their church is one thing but outside their church, they can't impose their beliefs. They are the ones that need to leave and find their own private country if they don't want it like this.
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Old 02-11-2018, 01:23 PM   #3342
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Hi folks on this thread. I see it's not currently active, but wondered if any of you are currently or had been a member of one of the Ethical Societies - part of the American Ethical Union, There are two near me - the Washington Ethical Society that's huge - and that I even remember from my childhood since family friends belonged - and one for Northern Virginia. They have Sunday meetings, lots of projects/actions concerning people and the environment, even Sunday school for kids, but the issue of a deity is not addressed.

I'd been thinking about community lately anyway, and now more so due to a serious health issue of my husband.


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Old 02-11-2018, 01:36 PM   #3343
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Hi Beth, I'm sorry to hear about your husband and I hope you can find comfort in one of the Ethical Societies you mentioned. I'm from New Zealand so can't help with membership info. They sound good from what you have said.
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Old 02-11-2018, 01:53 PM   #3344
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Thank you, Stephanie. I've long wanted to visit New Zealand.

For anyone wondering about ethical societies, this is the one in DC - but not the easiest to get to and park - http://ethicalsociety.org/

I actually emailed the leader/pastor of the other one, who immediately wrote back in such a kind and welcoming manner. Northern Virginia Ethical Society - Home

And thank you - we are pretty much reeling, interspersed with normal living until it hits us again, but will know more of what we are up against later this week. There's an excellent on-line patient/family community and other support as well, possibly some in person. A new albeit unwanted journey. : )

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Old 02-11-2018, 02:34 PM   #3345
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Hi Beth,
I'm glad the medical community has good support for you. Look after yourself.
Stephanie
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:39 PM   #3346
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Hi, Beth,
Sorry to hear that your husband is having medical issues. I hope for good care, comfort, and respect for your wishes.
Hugs,
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:03 PM   #3347
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Hi Beth. I'm so sorry to hear this. Sending hugs and Pixie Dust.
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Old 02-11-2018, 05:11 PM   #3348
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Beth, sorry to hear about your difficult situation. I know about humanists but had never heard of ethical societies. I'm glad you got such a warm response.
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:57 AM   #3349
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Thank you so much Sonja, Kitty, Martha. (I wonder why I didn't get email notifications that you posted.)

And Sonja, absolutely about respect for our wishes. And from past experiences (and reading), it's clear that advocating, very strongly if necessary, will be part of the plan. That said, with an extremely knowledgeable on-line community and the team of doctors we're initially seeing, I think we'll be treated well. In fact one person posted that at this specialty center, questions he didn't even know he had were answered. : )
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:13 AM   #3350
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Hi Beth, so sad to hear of your Hubbys health issues. But happy that you seem to be in a good place re the team looking after you. That 'comfortable' feeling with those in charge of your care makes so much difference. I was lucky, I feel, that every doctor we've had to see, and each team, we have both had a really positive feeling from them, and have felt cared for, both of us, not just me, along the way.
Typical example, my Initial surgeon at the local hospital,( even though I was transferred to another surgeon elsewhere because my cancer became complicated)- and his Colorectal Nurse specialist have been fantastic ever since my initial meeting with them. Sandra, the nurse, will often call me at home-4 years later now- to make sure I'm ok, if they haven't seen me in clinic for a while. My Oncologist was the one who had me admitted with Sepsis last year, when in a routine visit with him, he was concerned I didn't look well. Both he & my surgeon, and their nurses visited me on the ward every day for the two weeks I was in, even though neither were part of the team responsible for my care in that problem. They have all helped to make the journey less scary, as they not only spoke, but behaved-and I think this is the important part- behaved as though us, and my cancer care were important to them.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:35 AM   #3351
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Shaz - your medical team sounds truly lovely, not solely as doctors/nurses but as caring people with big hearts. But it occurs to me that part of their response may have to do with you.

Regardless of what is thrown at you, you seem to respond with grace, kindness, and with a positive outlook. I would imagine that your medical team is grateful, since those qualities are a bit rare anyway, and rarer yet when people are scared or sick. Plus goodness knows it's easy to find something to complain about. So not to take one iota away from your medical professionals, but please do give yourself a whole bunch of credit too.

And thank you for your kind words. One of the people with a strong medical background on the forum has written a primer, and just posted directly to us about a likely choice coming up, and has linked us to a study and discussion relating to it. Having information ahead of time may prevent some shock paralysis.

Beth

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Old 02-12-2018, 09:51 AM   #3352
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Hi Beth, I thought I replied last night but maybe I forgot to hit post? Whatever. Sorry you're going through this. But you did wake us all up.

I noticed you are editing for chrome spacing. It's not just chrome. I use Vivaldi, and I get extra spaces. If you edit it right away, it's not even marked edited. lol
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:01 AM   #3353
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Beth, thank you for your lovely words. I think, to a point, I have looked at this all along as 'It could have been so much worse'. May have been caught too late to do anything, it could have been one of the more difficult cancers- many people live daily with far worse than me.
Indeed, paralysis at a diagnosis, and indeed at consultations is definitely a thing. I'm sure people have already said it to you, but write down as many questions as you can think of beforehand in a notebook, and take it with you, so you remember to ask them all, and jot notes about replies. Nothing worse than getting halfway across the car park, and remembering something you really wanted to ask.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:48 PM   #3354
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Thank you, Kathy. BTW, I wrote a post earlier and got a database error so it didn't post. And thanks for the editing hint. I wondered why sometimes it didn't show an edit.

Shaz, looking on the bright side, knowing it could be worse? You just proved my point about you. And yes about note taking, and why having an advocate is important. Someone said they bring a tape recorder to their doctor visits. That would be great but given the prevalence of lawsuits, I wouldn't want any doctors to edit their words overly carefully. Maybe in special circumstances.
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:09 PM   #3355
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Beth, I have another editing tip. You know how you can't edit an old post?

Well, you can.

If you go to your post - pick any old post - and click on the post number, it pops up and - as you can see, the edit button is there!!!!
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:16 PM   #3356
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Wow, all this time and I never knew that! How in the world did you ever discover that, Kathy?
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:31 PM   #3357
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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That one has been around for a long long time, I forget how I found out!!! We figured it was a glitch. People would say, Shh, don't tell anyone, they might fix it! lol
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:24 AM   #3358
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Yup, I've been doing that for a long time and that was my thought too - shhh. LOL
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:47 AM   #3359
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Thats a good point, Beth. I can imagine the risk of a lawsuit would make it a very short conversation!. I mean, the reasonable amongst us know that nothing is certain, nothing can be 100% guaranteed,so accept if things don't always pan out word for word, but not everyone sees things that way. I think a doc would be too scared to say a thing, frankly.
Can I assume an advocate is sort of like an independent witness ? It's not something I have heard about over here. Or is it more like a legal official who monitors your treatment?
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:03 AM   #3360
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Advocate in this case has no legal standing and is not an official title. In the simplest terms, an advocate is someone who stands by you, makes decisions (if necessary) for you in your best interest,or as Ziva said to Tony, "You have always had my back." (NCIS reference).

Years ago when my father became ill, doctors had him on every machine available. Three days into in a coma he died and was resuscitated. He "lived" another seven days. My mother and our family were put through the wringer by the doctors. I decided then I did not ever want my family to be put in a similar situation.

When my husband's parents underwent similar experiences, he made his wishes known to me. Neither of us wanted to be kept on machines if there was no hope of a real existence--living in every sense of the word. We also did not want to be pumped full of every medication in the medicine cabinet. We had both seen what happens to a patient when this occurs--hallucinations, increased anxiety, loss of mental acuity, etc.

When my husband was ill and facing a fatal prognosis(GBM), I had to face the decision--if your husband's heart fails, do you want us to resuscitate him? The question was put to me as my husband was in the throes of a grand mal seizure that was putting extreme stress on his heart. Fortunately for me, my husband had taken action after his diagnosis. He made an appointment for us with a lawyer and gave me Power of Attorney so I did have some legal standing.

My husband survived that particular seizure but died several months later from the cancer. I don't know if I made the right decision. What I do know is I followed his wishes. I can also say, it was the most difficult decision I have ever had to make in my life and I would do it all over again to keep my word to him. I hope my children do the same for me if such an occasion rises.

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