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Unread 08-31-2017, 09:00 PM   #3321
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Oh my!!!
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Unread 09-03-2017, 08:40 PM   #3322
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I've got a question for you. I understand how moral correctness would help religious people feel more certain about the correctness of something (the "what would Jesus do?" thing). I don't understand exactly what they mean when they say "In contrast, moral concerns make non-religious people feel less certain." What would an example of that be?


Hi, Pam, I think I owe you a PM !


I may be late to the discussion, just read the referenced article. I wonder if the statement above would more accurately describe non-religious people if it stated "Moral concerns make non-religious people have less of an opinion, one way or the other, eg. less inclined to pick one "certain" conclusion." I would reframe it this way because many topics that are generally considered "moral" require a judgmental frame of reference- such as: the Bible says it is "immoral" to be gay. A non-religious person might state "Doesn't matter to me, be what you want to be or what you were born to be-not a 'moral' issue to a non-religious person."


To take a line from Wiccan rede "Ain it harm none, do what thou wilt".


So, what would be some "moral" issues? Doesn't the term itself come from the concept of mortal sin being unforgiveable by God? If there is no god, then no need to be concerned about forgiveness. Then, we are left with the concept of harm. Most would agree child sexual abuse may cause harm to a child and that would be a bad thing. However, there are many descriptions of "sexual abuse" and just as many levels of harm, or not harm.


Did I just feel the abrupt inhalation of breath? How can child sexual "abuse" not be harm? Depends on who, what, where, when, how, how often as well as culture, place, time and age. Hence, my conclusion that non-religious people may be less inclined to quickly come to a "certain" conclusion.
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Unread 09-03-2017, 08:49 PM   #3323
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Unread 09-03-2017, 11:26 PM   #3324
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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So, what would be some "moral" issues? Doesn't the term itself come from the concept of mortal sin being unforgiveable by God? If there is no god, then no need to be concerned about forgiveness. Then, we are left with the concept of harm. Most would agree child sexual abuse may cause harm to a child and that would be a bad thing. However, there are many descriptions of "sexual abuse" and just as many levels of harm, or not harm.
I don't think the word came from mortal sin.

At any rate, having grown up Catholic, I can tell you that a priest does forgive a Mortal Sin. First, there are three components to a mortal sin. First, it must be a grievous act. Second, it must be premeditated. Third, you have to actually do it.

So a lesser sin might be to wish someone dead, but a mortal sin would be to plot the crime and carry it out.

Then you would have to go to the priest and confess it.

I do think you are onto something in that the non-religious person might see more sides to every issue.

Although I personally think that if you can call it "abuse" then it's wrong. But whether it's a lesser sin or a mortal sin, that would depend.
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Unread 09-03-2017, 11:48 PM   #3325
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Kathy, thanks for the clarification on the mortal sins. I was just throwing out a wild guess- no Catholic background here.


Examples of how people describe "abuse" range from (sticking with sexual context) rape to children of the same age playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". Rape is wrong but children exploring is not wrong, even if someone else, usually a sputtering adult, calls it abuse. Additionally, the children's play is not harmful, but the adult's reaction may be harmful.


That is what I meant about just because one person calls it abuse, does not necessarily mean it reaches the level of true abuse, nor would it necessarily be wrong. Similar for acts of BDSM, depends on the situation-consent changes lots of acts from harm to pleasure.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 08:47 AM   #3326
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Kathy, thanks for the clarification on the mortal sins. I was just throwing out a wild guess- no Catholic background here.


Examples of how people describe "abuse" range from (sticking with sexual context) rape to children of the same age playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". Rape is wrong but children exploring is not wrong, even if someone else, usually a sputtering adult, calls it abuse. Additionally, the children's play is not harmful, but the adult's reaction may be harmful.


That is what I meant about just because one person calls it abuse, does not necessarily mean it reaches the level of true abuse, nor would it necessarily be wrong. Similar for acts of BDSM, depends on the situation-consent changes lots of acts from harm to pleasure.
I think for something to be accurately called 'abuse' there has to be a power imbalance. So two kids experimenting, and both consenting, is not abuse. But if one forces the other to participate, then that's abuse
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Unread 09-04-2017, 08:48 AM   #3327
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Anyway, the reason I'm here is because I've just seen this: More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey - BBC News
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Unread 09-04-2017, 12:18 PM   #3328
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Anyway, the reason I'm here is because I've just seen this: More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey - BBC News
Wow - awesome news! I suspect you would get similar results in NZ. A good point is made at the end of the article: The (Humanist UK) charity's chief executive, Andrew Copson, said: "More generally, how can the Church of England remain in any meaningful sense the national legally established church, when it caters for such a small portion of the population?"

I found another link within that article on how the Church of England is discussing holding services to acknowledge transgender people transitioning. That would be an excellent example to other churches.
Church of England votes to explore transgender services - BBC News
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Unread 09-04-2017, 01:13 PM   #3329
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A good point is made at the end of the article: The (Humanist UK) charity's chief executive, Andrew Copson, said: "More generally, how can the Church of England remain in any meaningful sense the national legally established church, when it caters for such a small portion of the population?"
That IS a good point. However, having seen (on here, largely) the so-called separation of church and state in the USA, I'm not sure that route is any more attractive. No doubt if our church and state separated, the only difference we'd see would be a reduction in bank holidays - and nobody wants that!
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Unread 09-04-2017, 01:16 PM   #3330
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I found another link within that article on how the Church of England is discussing holding services to acknowledge transgender people transitioning. That would be an excellent example to other churches.
Church of England votes to explore transgender services - BBC News
Stephanie
That's encouraging - but it still makes me mad how some people can believe that God created X, Y and Z but gay and trans people are somehow unacceptable. If God created them, how can they be wrong? I suppose that then comes down to whether it is a 'choice' or not. Too weary to go there...
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Unread 09-04-2017, 05:23 PM   #3331
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Kathy, thanks for the clarification on the mortal sins. I was just throwing out a wild guess- no Catholic background here.

Examples of how people describe "abuse" range from (sticking with sexual context) rape to children of the same age playing "I'll show you mine if you show me yours". Rape is wrong but children exploring is not wrong, even if someone else, usually a sputtering adult, calls it abuse. Additionally, the children's play is not harmful, but the adult's reaction may be harmful.

That is what I meant about just because one person calls it abuse, does not necessarily mean it reaches the level of true abuse, nor would it necessarily be wrong. Similar for acts of BDSM, depends on the situation-consent changes lots of acts from harm to pleasure.
That's a good point, and I agree with it. What Bagpuss said too.
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Unread 09-04-2017, 05:29 PM   #3332
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Anyway, the reason I'm here is because I've just seen this: More than half in UK are non-religious, suggests survey - BBC News
That is good news. I love how the young people are changing everything.


That's happening here too, some. And I know that if you move away from your family when you're young, and don't stay in that cocoon, it's a lot easier to skip church, and really pretty much stop thinking about "religion." You may or may not continue to abstractly believe in god.
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Unread 09-17-2017, 10:27 AM   #3333
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Post It's a good thing.

I just started volunteering for Recovering From Religion. We answer calls and chats from people looking for help such as negotiating family relationships, , finding an atheist group, how to have meaning in your life and also helping religious people deal with wanting to leave the religion they are in but aren't giving up on god. We don't give specific advice more just resources.

It is very interesting. I'm glad I'm doing it. So many of the callers have gone through the stages that a lot of atheists have done. They are so grateful to have someone to talk to especially the ones who are fundamentalists.


I have also encountered trolls/apologists. It never ceases to amaze me the misleading and lies Xtians will engage in to spread their religion. We aren't supposed to laugh at them but that's what I feel like doing. We just say no thanks and hang up.


Donate! Volunteer! Refer people to us!
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Unread 09-17-2017, 11:53 AM   #3334
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That is a good thing indeed! Go you!
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