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I don't understand how these things happen when in the US we have pricey brand names and then in other countries... they are the same stamps and dies but cost like 1/8th of the price... but the new Halloween Tim Holtz dies are also unbranded from **********.com I've never bought from here but saw on youtube a bunch of **********.com hauls and so I checked it out. There were some cute cover plates in the haul that I wanted to check out. The Tim Holtz dies weren't in the youtube videos however right when I clicked on the dies link... these were on the 1st page of them.
Thanks for that link,Catherine. I've just been and had a look, I'd seen others mention it on here, but never checked to see if they ship to the UK, which they do. I'll be back later to make a shopping list, lol.
If you're genuinely curious, it happens because a company with means to manufacture a product stole the design and used cheap local labor to produce the knock-off - without investing in things that usually cost extra like safety regulations, fair employee wages or quality control. You're not getting the same product that you see in your usual craft stores, but the company making the knock-offs is counting on consumers wanting cheap product more than guaranteed safety or quality.
I don't look down on anyone who chooses to shop in stores like ********** (it's your money, you decide how it's spent), but I personally refuse to do so. I'd rather not support a practice that hurts the industry and has the potential to hurt me just to be able to add a ton more things to my stash. I'm happier with shopping more mindfully and buying things on sale if I can't afford them outright.
Well, that was an interesting browse. I've seen others on here that have bought from ********** with no problems or complaints, and according to my Beloved Hubby, it's basically the Chinese version of E-Bay. So I've ordered a few dies. I did notice copies of a few TH dies on there- a couple I have just recently bought too, at a much higher cost. I know there is some debate about whether we should buy copies like this, but frankly they will still produce them, as some people will buy, plus, I buy a lot of full price, Brand name dies, where I know I'm paying a premium for a name. And that in itself annoys me, whether it's a craft product, or any other for that matter. I hate paying to have someones name on a product.So, where it's a die I like, but equally know I would use rarely, such as a motorbike die I've just bought from them, then I'm quite prepared to pay a couple of pounds for it, whereas I would not pay the (average) �10+ a branded one would cost.
My paychecks go to brand name stamp companies every month and they will continue to do so too. Pretty much all my money does, lol. There's no way this site is going to change that by ordering a few things.
These are big stamping companies they are knocking off - couldn't these major brands shut this down if they own the design of the images? It's crazy - this site has MFT, Lawn Fawn, Altenew, and so many other brands. I know the stamps are inferior because they are made of silicone, so I wouldn't buy those. I will happily pay the price for quality stamped images by the big companies. But I am going going to try out some of these dies and cover plates. There has been a few threads on here about how great they are.
Do these brand names buy them from China or get them made in China? Maybe that's also how they can do this.
I totally agree about stamps- especially with clear stamps, there is a huge variation in quality, and I would not expect to get good quality stamps cheaply. Dies & embossing folders though, I've already bought cheap dies from China from E-Bay, and they have all cut fine, with no exceptions.
Yes, I think quite possibly a number of well known names get products made in China- I know I have seen other comments in the past about Big names being made in China.
I did note many of the dies were named as 'customised', which makes me think they have probably been altered slightly, probably in size, from the 'original'. I know I have bought one circular 'Happy Birthday', which is like a MB die, but is actually slightly smaller, so again, maybe that is a loophole that is being exploited. I didn't actually look at the stamps they had available, but like you,Catherine, I want to know my stamp is going to stamp well, and last.
As far as I know, a lot of the big companies (like MFT, Lawn Fawn, etc) are produced in the US - both stamps and dies, hence the cost. And due to laws (see here), they have to disclose where the product is manufactured if it's imported - so you'd know if it was made in China because it would say it on the packaging. It says "made in China" for some of the Sizzix dies I own, for example, so not all brand names are made in the US. But some manufacturing companies in China will literally just copy the uncolored stamp image the company uses to list their product (for example) or they'll copy the die design. Since the quality doesn't matter to them, they don't care about things like watermarks etc that normally detracts people from using listing images to produce content.
Even if the stamp company had their products manufactured in China, though, the manufacturer who uses the design to make an extra batch to resell for cheap is stealing. To me, it's the equivalent of going to the local pharmacy to get family holiday pictures printed, only to see those pictures on their next flyer. Just because I printed the images using the pharmacy's equipment doesn't mean they can use my images however they want - and same goes for manufactured products.
The big issue is that most of the companies who do the knockoffs are difficult to peg. They might make one or two batches of the knockoff, then close shop and reopen under a different name. Or they may be a government-sanctioned business who blames it on a "bad employee who did it on their day off and got fired". In a lot of ways, it feels like a losing battle to try to go after each new manufacturer who does this. It's even worse for small companies like the crafting companies because they don't have the time or the money to keep going after these manufacturers again and again. Having been on the receiving end of something similar to this both at work and personally (trying to sell art), I know how awful and disheartening it is to see your hard work go to waste because some random person decided to steal the end result, so I sympathize entirely with the name brand companies.
Unfortunately, the only way to really stop the whole thing from happening is to either release nothing new or to have every crafter boycott the site/practice and stop buying products from third party vendors. But both of those are no fun for the customer - especially someone who's new to crafting.
So, the best thing we can do is educate ourselves about the products we're buying and using - both from the companies themselves and from SCS (which is a true trove of knowledge, as we all know). Support the practices you want to see more of, and be creative when it comes to saving, spending and using all the crafty goodness.
I've just been looking through my branded dies, and see that the Tim Holtz/Sizzix dies are Made in China, as are the Sue Wilson (Creative Expressions) dies, and the Spellbinders dies. The only one that is made in the USA is Memory Box. That being the case, I can't think of one other reason for any of them doing this, other than that it is cheaper for them to produce in China.BUT, if they are getting them made cheaply, that is most certainly not reflected in their prices!
I agree, Elle, that small companies cannot nail down people copying their work, but those three companies could most certainly do so. So, maybe there is some legal loophole, such as the re-sizing of a die, for instance, that makes any copyright infringement difficult to pursue?
I would equally say that while looking through the 46 pages,(36 images a page),of dies on ********** , I saw a huge number on there that I have never seen anywhere else before.
Unfortunately, it's not so much of a legal loophole as it is just the location and frequency. Copyright is really complicated when it's in your own country where the laws are clear, it gets even worse when it has to cross internationally. The US-based (or other country) companies have to rely on the Chinese government to enforce the law, and (sadly) that often just doesn't happen unless the company is big enough to put some serious money/time into it.
And, even then, the issue persists if said manufacturer feels like they can make a ton of profit on the product. They close shop, recoup costs and reopen a month later under a different name. People don't get arrested for copyright infringement, some get away with just a small fine - and that's not enough to stop them from doing it again. They just keep doing it for as long as there's a market for it, then move onto something else if it stops being profitable.
I've no doubt that there's completely original material on AE. There are legitimate designers and manufacturers who produce original content in China and many other countries. But as I don't speak Chinese, I can't do the kind of research I normally do when buying a product and that makes me uneasy. I know, for example, that some companies have had issues with high traces of lead in metal products, so I'd be worried that this is the case with the dies. Or that the clear stamps will degrade quickly - and with how long it takes me to use a stamp, it might mean I literally just threw away whatever I spent on it. For me, reliability is more important than low cost.
Your line about how long it will take you to use a stamp made me giggle, I have so many years of stamps I've never used. I swear though, I have big plans. For all of them! I know when clear stamps first came out, or at least when I first started buying them, those sets did not hold up over time. I suspect the knock offs are probably similar. I had all these MSE clear sets and Brenda Walton sets - that just ripped and tore when I went to use them after time passed. Parts of alphabet letters and halves of images would rip in two when I went to peel them off the sheets. There's this one sun from an MSE set that I just loved and would use - and it ripped in two and broke my heart. I can't find it anywhere online! And some of those original Fiskers sets, took such strength to peel off after some time passed. I just ended up tossing a bunch of them. I still remember the day I was at this super cute all stamp store (remember those?!?!?) called Stamp on In - and we used clear stamps for one card. And the whole concept of a non wood mount rubber stamp - I couldn't wrap my brain around it! I figured it was just a passing trend, lol. Thankfully clear stamps have come a long way! I love that they don't yellow anymore and are such an affordable alternative to wood mount. I love my wood mounts too - some I will never part with - but I do love my clear stamps! Which is why I would also continue to buy the better quality ones. Something just hit me though - I have another thread on SCS about all this pressure i feel to buy matching dies for sets and how I'm not going to do it anymore. And I just ordered dies! At least they don't match stamp sets... does that count? LOL. Thanks for all the info about laws and stuff. I was shocked seeing all of this on that site!!!
Oh, it makes me giggle, too! I'm just terrible about loving a stamp, buying it and then being too overwhelmed by all the ideas I want to do - so it sits in storage for a while. It's funny, there's a poll here asking how many of my stamps have been stamped out, and I thought I'd check. I was shocked to see how few I'd used (not even 10%, sadly). It put things into perspective and I immediately started taking steps to use stamps more and to shop less.
I've bought a few new stamps & dies here and there, but so much less than before. Now the things I've bought were either stamps I didn't have (like that sloth mini from Lawn Fawn or an essential sentiment set from MFT) or consumables like adhesive. My wallet's breathing easier, but I still feel like I'm supporting the companies I love when I can.
If you're genuinely curious, it happens because a company with means to manufacture a product stole the design and used cheap local labor to produce the knock-off - without investing in things that usually cost extra like safety regulations, fair employee wages or quality control. You're not getting the same product that you see in your usual craft stores, but the company making the knock-offs is counting on consumers wanting cheap product more than guaranteed safety or quality.
I don't look down on anyone who chooses to shop in stores like ********** (it's your money, you decide how it's spent), but I personally refuse to do so. I'd rather not support a practice that hurts the industry and has the potential to hurt me just to be able to add a ton more things to my stash. I'm happier with shopping more mindfully and buying things on sale if I can't afford them outright.
Elle, Thank you for posting this! You echo my feelings exactly. Infringement is no different than pirated goods being sold on the streets of Chinatown in NYC or elsewhere, where counterfeit goods are hidden behind the fake walls of stalls and people wanting "designer" bags at a cheap price are quickly pulled inside to shop. A lot of these items, whether handbags, clothes, sunglasses, etc are made by employees of legitimate companies but done in off hours or on the sly, stealing the designers' work product and investment in their products. The police continually shut these operations down in places like Chinatown (which by the way is a very fun place to visit and dine, I just won't shop there unless it's in a legit store) but they pop up again just as quickly. I don't know how ********** operates, and since I don't personally trust the site and I have a keen interest in protecting artists, my purchases are with companies I have faith in. I have a limited budget but appreciate all the ideas and inspiration I get from the various company blogs and design teams. I wonder how many people buy from places like ********** and then go back to Tim Holtz, Altenew, etc. for ideas. It just doesn't seem fair.
I buy a ton of stuff from **********: Dies, stamps, embellishments, etc. I've never had a problem with quality - not even with the stamps. There are tons of videos on YouTube of people stamping with Ali stamps and the impressions are great. Now, as far as how long they will last.. that remains to be seen. But, I don't use stamps a lot anyhow.
Please note that just because a product description on Ali says that the stamps are made of silicone, does not necessarily mean they are. The Chinese get subtle distinctions (like silicone and photopolymer, for example) mixed up a lot. So, the stamps might be photopolymer or made of fairy dust for all we know.
In any case, I will continue buying stuff from Ali without any qualms. I'm not going to follow anyone else's idea of what constitutes morality. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I disregard people who believe (falsely) that they are somehow morally superior.
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Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting: The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar... (-Wordsworth)
Well, I certainly hope I didn't come across as preachy- that was not my intention, and I apologize if anyone felt I was coming down on them (or their choices). As I said in my first reply in this thread, how other people choose to spend their money is their decision alone. I respect their choices of where to shop just as much as I hope they respect mine.
However, I also feel that it's good to be able to make informed choices and that by sharing our knowledge and experiences, we can help each other in that respect. For instance, I'm confident that all of my purchases of tools will last me for years (if not decades) because I took the time to research the company and read reviews/feedback from many crafters before buying anything. If this information wasn't readily available via YT, blogs or SCS, I'd be stuck with a lot of bad quality product that I hate.
I've seen a lot of crafting companies/designers being vilified by people who are upset because they feel like the designer is producing stuff cheap in China and jacking up the price to take advantage of the consumers (even though the company in question has their product manufactured in the US). I've also seen people root for the race to the bottom (i.e. it's competition and it will make designer companies lower prices) without understanding how this will affect the quality or the availability of products in the future. These things come from assumptions and misunderstandings of the situation, and they can grow into the kind of negative reputation a company/person doesn't recover from.
As a side note, I'm not a crafting company owner, employee or DT member - so I'm not trying to save anyone's reputation/income/etc. I just feel that we're fortunate enough to have all these wonderful US-based companies that design products for us to use and I want them to continue to thrive in the future.
I totally did not mean to start this thread for it become political at all! I had never looked at this site before and it surprised me to see some brand names for so cheap - I wondered how in the world that was legal - and at the same time was so excited to see so many crafting supplies there are at affordable prices.
I definitely feel like I've learned quite a bit. I am one who assumed MFT and Lawn Fawn and all the brand names were made in China. It's interesting to see they are made in America. And at the same time, I'm glad to see there are some affordable options through websites like **********.com where I and others can get some craft supplies I would not be able to otherwise afford. And I'm happy to hear that not all the stamps there are silicone! For me, it's a win win situation. I spend tons of money on brand names here and I am ok with buying some cute supplies to add to my stash from this site.
I have an iPhone and I think it's at least assembled in China. I don't feel inferior at all. And I have a car made in America and that doesn't make me feel superior. Whatever makes me people happy, I say go for it.
I appreciate all the information - starting this thread opened my eyes that some of these brand names are made here. Definitely makes me feel better about what we pay. And i love I can expand my creativity through this site by being able to buy some cute things I wouldn't be able to otherwise afford. - Catherine
Last edited by Catherine773; 09-11-2017 at 08:38 PM..
I have to say that I've been wondering about this copyright situation a little. I mean, to me, companies like Sizzix/Spellbinders et al, are huge brands who could quite easily I'm sure apply a lot of pressure in the right places to get the copying stamped on. Being the suspicious sort, I have to wonder if there is some sort of back door deal made here- for a consideration, a blind eye is turned to design copy, as long as the design is changed in some way? If dies are made slightly smaller, then they won't work with the matching Brand Name stamp, for instance. As they are getting their products made for pennies in China anyway, I'm also guessing they don't want to rock the boat TOO far.
We have a cheap clothing chain called Primark, and to be fair, if any chain can sell things like T-shirts & Leggings for �3 ($4), then they have to be having most of it manufactured in the Far East. What I find wrong, is that those big names in the crafting world who are having their products made in China, are not passing that saving on to the customer. And, as Catherine says, it isn't just the crafting world. Mobiles/tablets/laptops are all being produced there, but the profits from the lower costs are only being enjoyed by the Brand name, not the consumer.
First, sorry for the wall of text! There's just a lot of extra info to share... :oops:
So, one of the things my employer was considering a short while ago is producing physical merchandise for our digital store. Since my title is product manager, I had to do extensive research into production and how it works on the back-end of things. It's actually a lot more complicated than people think, especially when it comes to how the pricing of a product is decided. There's a sweet spot that you have to hit with pricing, where it's low enough to please a customer, but high enough to cover all the costs of manufacturing, shipping and selling the product as well as give you a small profit margin. People are smart and people talk to raise awareness about business practices- especially now that we have the internet at our fingertips. Trying to push for maximum profit with minimum effort is hard to do without anyone noticing and it's impossible to sustain. Companies don't get big or stay big if they're taking advantage of their customers.
In general, people assume that the majority of the product's cost is profit for the company - and this is certainly the case for some name brands that are charging extra for the name. But for a lot of the small businesses we shop from, company profit is dead last on the cost breakdown list.
When a product is manufactured locally (instead of outsourced), the base cost is generally 30-50% of the final product price (ex. 7$ for a stamp) - this includes base materials, fair employee wages, insurance, quality control and shipping charges. Beyond that, the stamp company also needs to reserve a portion of the pricing to pay for product storage, customer support, filling/managing/tracking orders, online store/website hosting, etc. In the beginning, the owner will probably manage that by themselves. When their company grows beyond what the owner can handle, though, they will need to pay someone a fair wage to help take care of parts of the business. Some stamp companies hire designers for their stamps, which also need to be paid - either a lump sum upfront or royalties (portion of each stamp set sold).
If they're partnered up with a bigger one-stop-shop store like Simon Says Stamp, for example, they also need to reserve a portion of those 15$ that will be going to them. Partnering up does raise brand awareness and can be effective in increasing sales, but it's also extra work to stock and maintain another store.
In the end, the stamp company might see 1-2$ of profit from that stamp set and many of them won't see actual profit on the time and capital they've invested until a couple of successful years later. That's why I, personally, don't think it's fair to say a company is milking us for money when their profit wouldn't even cover the base cost of manufacturing the product.
But what about companies who have their products manufactured in China?
Well, there's actually two main reasons for outsourcing:
1) The company is trying to reduce manufacturing costs in order to put more of the cost split into something else. It's often for a higher profit, but not always. Sometimes they invest it in advertising, physical space or even things like sponsoring education, charities, etc.
2) The company needs the kind of manufacturing volume they can't get locally. If the local manufacturer can only handle creating 5000 units per week, for example, but there are 20,000 Joann and Micahels waiting for that product, it's a big problem. In order to meet the demand, the company might not have a lot of choice but to outsource the work.
However, outsourcing doesn't always mean going for the cheapest manufacturer in China. The company still has their own reputation to worry about, still needs to stand by their product and offer the same level of quality/service that had their brand grow in the first place. So, between those and importing costs (yes, they do have to pay duty when that product crosses the border, just like non-US crafters have to pay when shopping in online US stores), the profit margin might not be as high as we think.
Of course, it's tough to tell without complete transparency from the company. But seeing the level of care and attention these companies give to the customer, I'd personally like to believe they're not getting filthy rich by overcharging us.
Now, regarding copyright...
There's a few reasons why it might not look like Sizzix/Spellbinder/other big names aren't going after knock-offs:
- The first is that things like that are generally handled behind the scenes. If a company goes public to address that a vendor is selling knock-offs of their product, they're inadvertently doing advertising for said vendor. People will go and check out the vendor and give them more attention/business. So, they could be going after the vendors on AE behind the scenes and that's why you see things go out of stock all the time.
- Copyrighting or patenting a product can actually be a complicated and lengthy process. You can't copyright an idea and you can't copyright something that's commonly used (ex. a circle shape for a die) - though there have been some surprising exceptions (see here). So, the list of things Sizzix/Spellbinders/etc can legally send cease & desist notices might not be as big as we think.
- It costs a lot of time, money and energy to go after people for copyright infringement and it can often have the opposite effect. Knowing that a company is going against knock-offs is perceived as "there is a large market to protect, therefore I need to get in on this" by people who create these knockoffs. So, it becomes a case of damned if you don't, damned if you do.
Again, sorry for the wall of text! I looked up a lot of this info for work, and then some of it because I was genuinely interested in what it would take to start a crafty company. Knowing all the behind-the-scenes details has definitely given me a lot more respect for anyone who's genuinely giving it a try. It's a hard road to walk...
I buy a ton of stuff from **********: Dies, stamps, embellishments, etc. I've never had a problem with quality - not even with the stamps. There are tons of videos on YouTube of people stamping with Ali stamps and the impressions are great. Now, as far as how long they will last.. that remains to be seen. But, I don't use stamps a lot anyhow.
Please note that just because a product description on Ali says that the stamps are made of silicone, does not necessarily mean they are. The Chinese get subtle distinctions (like silicone and photopolymer, for example) mixed up a lot. So, the stamps might be photopolymer or made of fairy dust for all we know.
In any case, I will continue buying stuff from Ali without any qualms. I'm not going to follow anyone else's idea of what constitutes morality. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I disregard people who believe (falsely) that they are somehow morally superior.
Like Elle, I certainly do not think of myself as morally superior, or superior in ANY way to anyone. My point was that there is a lot more that goes into a stamp set, metal die, or any merchandise than the end product itself. I am very protective of artists and creatives and see their hard work stolen right out from under them all the time. It takes a lot to create a product and bring it to market. It is easy to take that final product and copy it without regard to the artist, manufacturer, distributor, etc. and all the costs that go into it, whether it is manufactured in the USA, China, or elsewhere. There are plenty of reputable manufacturers in China and other countries that honor the agreements involved in outsourcing. I have no problem with legit companies. I also was not passing judgment on anyone's purchasing choices. Everyone is free to do what works for them. Since my family and friends have been directly affected by work product being pirated, this is an important issue to me and I have personally felt the economic impact. Thanks to Elle for the insight and education into how pricing is determined and all the hidden costs that go into the primary owner's production, not only design and development, materials, etc. but also things like employee benefits, fair wages, and customer service.
I have not read all of this yet-I will come back to it. Looks like a great in depth chat! So if someone has said this, forgive the repeat.
Having a cousin who had stuff made in China for his business.....bribery is alive and well there still. So good luck getting them to enforce copyrights.
Food for thought:
It is a sad comment when you can have something made on the other side of the planet and shipped here, and it is WAY cheaper than to just make it here. That kind of shipping isn't cheap either. Tells you a lot about how little they are paying over there as mentioned above.
It's long been a running debate for decades...used to be stuff made in Japan remember?
What seems like "no money" to us may be real money in other economies around the world.
Or the only money to be had-which some argue is exploitation and others say better than nothing. When looking starvation in the eye....some of these areas are in the flood zones right now or have been in the past, etc.
I don't begin to have an opinion on this. It's complicated. Right now, I don't buy that stuff but I don't hold it against anyone who does.
A very good point was made about high Western prices not reflecting the cheap mfg costs of the East....which is true in many fields like fashion, etc.
I have always tried to support my country's economy first, since not everything I use/eat is Canadian made/grown, next is North American made/grown. I do of course have items made in China, almost inevitable not to, but I try not to buy from there. I really believe people deserve a living wage and decent, safe working conditions, and I am doubtful they routinely exist in China, Thailand, India etc. We have all heard horror stories of sweat shops and child labour, and I choose to not support that, and I believe one reason these items are so inexpensive, is the savings made with cheap labour. I am in no way criticizing anyone who shops with **********, how someone spends their money is their business, I just try to support Canada/NA first. One interesting note, a buy/sell group I belong to will not allow "China" dies on the site.
I very much agree with your sentiments, wavejumper. What we see as poor wages, by our standards, may indeed be the difference between eating or not in other countries. I well remember the culture shock regarding this when we had our honeymoon, and did a Nile trip & Egypt stay. What a person would give to Egyptians as a tip, was generally more than they would earn in a day. So yes, it's all relative.
But, as I said in my reply above, companies like Sizzix, Spellbinders & Creative Expressions- and those are just the few I've checked, I can imagine a lot of other brands are also the same- seem to have no problem with having their goods made in China. Perhaps they are looking at the issue in the way that it's easier to change a system from the inside?
I haven't purchased from **********, but I've bought my share of inexpensive unbranded dies from China on Ebay and Amazon. I can't complain about the quality of what I've received, and they are dies that I haven't seen elsewhere. They were purchased mainly when I had some time to kill and was scanning thru Ebay. That place is dangerous to me!
Frankly, when I see a die I like, wherever it may be, I'm just too lazy to try to find it on one of the Chinese sites. I find it extremely difficult to search for anything specific there. I will search for the brand name die on more than one site, though, too see who has it for the best price
I also am a huge fan of Sue Wilson dies, which are also manufactured in China. There is something different about her dies than the inexpensive ones; they definitely feel more substantial, and even though they are insanely intricate, I have never had a problem with getting the paper to release from the die. Hers are also quite a lot bigger than the average dies from US companies - she has quite a few that are really too large to use on an A2 size card. I feel that hers are worth the extra $$, because of the quality of the dies, the size of the dies, and because they aren't for sale at big box stores where I'll be able to get them with a 40% off coupon.
I also have ordered a number of dies from Gina Marie designs - hers are quite inexpensive compared to most (although not quite so inexpensive as the ********** site) and I love her designs. She has her dies manufactured in China, to keep the prices down, and she has had issues with her designs being stolen. She's been able to have them pulled from Amazon and Ebay shops, but it makes me shudder to think how much time that takes - time that she could be spending designing more really neat things for me to buy.
It's so frustrating though when you finally get to the checkout for those shops in China because all the products are super cheap and then the shipping price is crazy high! I've also heard that the product prices are so cheap because labor is so cheap in China. But it's killing small businesses in the US to try and compete with them!
I totally agree Cbet, it would take forever to compare the prices on all of those sites just to find the best one. I usually use sites like ScrapbookPal or Simon Says Stamp because they have sales. ScrapbookPal is where I get most of my dies and stamps because I loooove Lawn Fawn stamps (so freaking cute!) and they have free shipping on orders of $25, which is always nice.
Forgive me if I blinked and missed it but the thing I haven’t seen discussed is the design/development cost of a product. Our favourite stamp and die companies, whether big or small, have designers working for them drawing stamp designs etc. I hope we’d all agree that those designers deserve to be fairly paid for their work. The outfits producing ripoffs simply bypass the costs of creativity and imagination: they don’t employ artists and illustrators, they don’t have meetings to generate creative ideas or identify trends, they don’t support design teams as a way of promoting their products. They’re simply relying on the legitimate company to do all of those things and producing copies that they can consequently afford to sell much more cheaply, even before you factor in conditions of employment etc.
There’s no moral judgement intended here, life is full of hidden complexities and I’m sure I do things that folk with a different perspective would be horrified by. I’m just conscious that the artist often gets overlooked when their creativity results in a product (it’s always easier to see the “thing” than the process that produced it).
I started this thread maybe 6 months ago when I first learned what ********** was and just saw Tim Holtz items. I was floored when I saw his dies - and then when I saw all the other knock offs!
Do you think it is possible there are some designs that aren't stolen that they sell? There are 3 stamp sets that I bought - that I have never ever seen by any companies I'm familiar with. It's these little animals jumping on pogo sticks and stuff. I bought them because Id' never seen cute play time or playground sets like them. Though having this small category now called "Unbranded" kills my organizational anxiety though, lol. I have everything organized by manufacturer. Maybe I'll post the sets and see if anyone else thinks they may be original designs and not knock-offs. The site is so time consuming to shift through and all these secret links drive me bonkers. But if these sets aren't stolen, there are certainly some cute ones available! Plus I buy other cute stuff on the site that I turn into craft storage or little things around the house. And I personally do not care if people buy these Chinese stamps sets or not - I'm not trying to open that conversation again. To each his own! I'm just wondering if maybe not all of them are knock-offs!
Just adding my rather late two cents: I've seen some comments along the lines that the big US-based companies should be able to shut down companies producing knockoff products. I really don't think that is possible in the paper crafting world any more than it is in the fashion world. As soon as you go after one manufacturer another one opens up, and there are probably dozens of companies producing knockoffs all the time. It is nearly impossible to permanently shut down the bootleggers.
Just wanted to echo StampinHoosier's thought... Several years ago, I was considering applying for a patent for an idea that I was hoping to produce and consulted with my brother, who had previously done extensive research into patents and consulted with several patent attorneys. The takeaway from my conversation was that it is extremely difficult and costly to enforce patents (copyrights, whatever) in the U.S., and nearly impossible internationally. He was told pretty much the same thing across the board: get in and make your money while you can, because the knockoffs are inevitable and impossible to fend off... Discouraging information, that, but I guess since "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", one can at least take solace in the fact that they had a really good idea. Too bad that doesn't reflect in one's bank account, and too bad that there are people willing to make money at others' expense. Unfortunately, there has always been that element among us and, in today's global economy, it's even more prevalent.
In my opinion, any stamp company that openly admits they use Chinese manufacturers, has no right to expect their customers to boycott Chinese-made products. By manufacturing in China, they are supporting the Chinese economy *and* the government that does not recognize copyright laws. And let's face it, they are using Chinese manufacturers to SAVE MONEY, which is the same reason we buy from China. Wendy
In my opinion, any stamp company that openly admits they use Chinese manufacturers, has no right to expect their customers to boycott Chinese-made products. By manufacturing in China, they are supporting the Chinese economy *and* the government that does not recognize copyright laws. And let's face it, they are using Chinese manufacturers to SAVE MONEY, which is the same reason we buy from China. Wendy
U.S. companies have the right to manufacture in the locations they choose. They own trademarks and copyrights for their products and have agreements with the designers/artists.
But the Chinese companies that are massively undercutting prices do not own the designs. They are thieves.
One small company that makes dies has hired a person who does nothing but search for their stolen designs, and alerts Amazon (for example) when found. Amazon removes the item, but they pop back up almost immediately under different names.
An artist on SCS has had her art stolen. I knew an artist known for intricate, fused glass jewelry who stopped doing fine arts shows because people from China would quickly snap photos when she was busy with customers, and her work would show up at cheap stores.
A woman at a Stamp & SB Expo proudly told me that she bought SU stamps and dies from Chinese companies that copied them. When I pointed out they’re not theirs to sell, she said SU charges too much so she felt justified.
I guess it’s up to each of us whether we pay higher prices to companies that own the items, do without, or buy stolen work.
Last edited by bjeans; 09-22-2019 at 03:14 PM..
Reason: typos
Yes, US companies can choose to manufacture in China -- my point is I think it is hypocritical to then ask their customers to boycott China (specifically Stampendous).
It really is a problem for American artists and designers -- I hate that it is happening.
MFT just posted this on their FB page. Reminded me of this thread. Buying counterfeit is just buy stolen goods. There is no justification for it.
I really haven’t spoken publicly about this, but perhaps it’s time. To everyone that loves our industry and is fulfilled by the act of crafting and sharing their art with those they love, please, please make sure you purchase authentic products from reputable sources. I want to clear up some common misnomers:
- We manufacture solely in the USA using original art. If you’re receiving a product from China, it isn’t ours.
- Many crafters have a tight budget, and I understand the allure of looking for the “best deal”, but this is truly illegal and no amount of justification resolves that. And not speaking up is tacit approval.
- MFT and most every other company this is affecting are women-owned, operated with thought and care for all the lives their products touch, including those behind the scenes, so you’re not just supporting one woman; you’re supporting a community.
- When wondering who it hurts, the answer is crystal clear: Our entire industry. Every company, every employee, every manufacturer, and every artist.
- This is not a victimless crime. It is a gut-wrenching betrayal of my life’s work. Much love,
Kim https://www.mftstamps.com/pages/report-counterfeits
Kim, I am so glad you posted! For ME, personally, I'm just looking for verification that the stamp company products are truly made in the USA and they are not farming out parts of their operation to China. YAY for you and your company!!!
There is a perception out there that some companies are getting their dies from China and then reselling them in the US for much higher prices. So it is comforting to know that your company does not do that.
Kim, I am so glad you posted! For ME, personally, I'm just looking for verification that the stamp company products are truly made in the USA and they are not farming out parts of their operation to China. YAY for you and your company!!!
There is a perception out there that some companies are getting their dies from China and then reselling them in the US for much higher prices. So it is comforting to know that your company does not do that.
Thank you, again, for your response.
Wendy
I just copied that from her FB post to share here. Just wanted to clarify that it was not Kim who posted.
But even if they make it in China, it does not make the copyright violation legal or ethical. I do prefer products made in the USA too. A lot of small companies do manufacture here. I love that - and supporting smaller businesses.
And everyone who buys the knock offs will wonder someday what happened to their favorite companies. Those companies went out of business because they didn't sell enough of their product to cover the costs of designing, manufacturing, etc. Same goes for your local stamp/scrapbooking stores. I work for one and want to scream when I hear customers say they can get it so much cheaper from China. If you are buying these Chinese knock offs, you are receiving stolen goods because the designs are intellectual property. We see the new releases before the general public and the copycats often appear from China before the stamps even arrive at the shop. As tempting as it is to go for the cheaper prices, you are only hurting the industry that you enjoy.
How many people do their jobs, get paid,and all that without the incentive expensive trips? I am certain SU is doing very well. It's just sad that demos have to work so hard for help a company stay afloat.
If anyone is using Stampin Up images and making them in China, believe me Stampin Up is not suffering! Their prices are increasingly high! We buyers are all paying for demos cruises and trips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bzzzeee
Like Elle, I certainly do not think of myself as morally superior, or superior in ANY way to anyone. My point was that there is a lot more that goes into a stamp set, metal die, or any merchandise than the end product itself. I am very protective of artists and creatives and see their hard work stolen right out from under them all the time. It takes a lot to create a product and bring it to market. It is easy to take that final product and copy it without regard to the artist, manufacturer, distributor, etc. and all the costs that go into it, whether it is manufactured in the USA, China, or elsewhere. There are plenty of reputable manufacturers in China and other countries that honor the agreements involved in outsourcing. I have no problem with legit companies. I also was not passing judgment on anyone's purchasing choices. Everyone is free to do what works for them. Since my family and friends have been directly affected by work product being pirated, this is an important issue to me and I have personally felt the economic impact. Thanks to Elle for the insight and education into how pricing is determined and all the hidden costs that go into the primary owner's production, not only design and development, materials, etc. but also things like employee benefits, fair wages, and customer service.
Last edited by montessorigrandma; 09-17-2020 at 08:04 AM..
If anyone is using Stampin Up images and making them in China, believe me Stampin Up is not suffering! Their prices are increasingly high! We buyers are all paying for demos cruises and trips.
The Stampin Up demos work their butts off to be able to qualify for the cruise.
Have you ever been to one of these top demos open houses or card club class. I have. It is beyond amazing what they do for their customers.
I will agree that the prices are getting out of hand on SU products but please don't bash the demos that get these cruises. This is a business to them.They put everything They have into their business. This is their job. They are not hobby demos.
If you want to buy from China companies that steal artwork from American artist. That is your personal choice. I prefer to support American artists for this crafting industry.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
Last edited by lesliespringer; 01-06-2020 at 09:46 AM..
If anyone is using Stampin Up images and making them in China, believe me Stampin Up is not suffering! Their prices are increasingly high! We buyers are all paying for demos cruises and trips.
There is no justification for supporting thieves and buying stolen artwork. If you feel you can't afford SU, buy another brand. Most SU sets are in the $20 range, as are the sets of many other companies. But wanting something you cannot afford is not justification to steal it.
Buyer beware.........the stamps they are counterfeiting out of China are NOT quality materials.........in most cases they are acrylic and will not last. Also, if a single stamp is $10.00-$15.00 and you can get a set with coordinating pieces for $20.00 I'd call that a bargain.
Tim Holtz New Halloween Dies - Unbranded
