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Unread 04-18-2017, 05:10 AM   #81
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I am glad I came here to read this thread. I had known about some of the lawsuits but not the latest on the Tonic platform. It really seems different to me as a stamper, but non stampers might think it is the same. It seems to be against progress not to let someone improve a product and sell it.

I had really been hoping to buy the tonic product this month.
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Unread 04-18-2017, 05:29 AM   #82
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A judge decides matters of law, and a jury matters of fact. Sometimes there's an agreement to have a judge instead of a jury.

But a plaintiff may request a jury if it's believed a jury would be more sympathetic - like if it's a tiny business going up a huge business. A judge would be less likely to be swayed by emotion than a jury would.

This case bothers me because MSP is trying to limit consumer choices, which generally means higher prices than if there was competition. (I don't think it's a coincidence that some special Misti sales have been announced - up to 40% off in one case for three days.)

So what if TH had a brown Misti. He could have easily purchased one. We see variations in virtually every product we buy. Someone wanting to improve an already existing product is what can spur innovation and bring new items and lower prices to the marketplace.

Off my soapbox. Just my take.
Not a soapbox, a healthy discussion in the matters of law, supply and demand, and commerce! I've certainly learned a lot about patents and I'm now fascinated on why some people get patents and others don't.

I agree with everything you said which is why I thought it was interesting. A judge would see through the BS faster that a jury seeing someone crying on the witness stand. Maybe also a scare tactic to get Tonic to want to settle quicker instead of risking a trial. I'm picturing the courthouse - Tim fans on one side of the street, MISTI on the other, holding signs, yelling, police barricades!

I agree, the fact that she/the lawyer is pointing out how 2 special MISTIs were made and how (at that time) he loved them is reaching a bit but a jury might see that as being a back-stabber. Yes, he could've bought his own, used it, and found it lacking in some areas, which is what Tonic probably did and what most companies do. I think Tonic's lawyers can argue the same for her and the centuries-old letter press. Reading how they're claiming to own every general detail (like its flat), I too thought this is so broad it will be a monopoly. I still can't believe the patent was issued in the first place. But then, I work for the government so, yeah, I guess I can.

My prediction, overall, is once all these lawsuits get cleaned up is that MISTI will be bought out by a big company. The majority of stampers seem to have one already and they will get tired of shelling out outrageous sums of money to keep replacing them. I can't see how much more she can improve the MISTI (those corners are a bit 'Stamp-A-Ma-Jig' to me - maybe they should sue MISTI). I wonder, if she wins against Tonic, can she take their ideas and create a new and improved MISTI?

In all fairness, I admit don't stamp without mine, its an awesome tool. But its cracking for no good reason and once it goes I will be at a loss. Will I buy another one? Probably not, I'll try to make my own and see how that goes for a while.
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Unread 04-18-2017, 05:43 AM   #83
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And the Stamp A Ma Jig has it's copiers. Apple Pie Memories makes one, so does Art Impressions and others. I guess SU never saw them as a threat since it was just one among many of their products.

I think the whole thing is a reach. According to the document, the Misti has sold "millions" and is now sold in many, many countries. So not a tiny company being stepped on by a giant one. Or at least not at this point. And the Tonic is not a "copy" of the Misti. It simply uses the same concept. I would bet that a nonstamper would see that. Maybe even more easily than a stamper.

I'm sure Tim Holtz did love his. And then thought of ways to make a better one. That's capitalism. Making the better mousetrap.

Interesting take, fifiwesfan. About it ending up with some large company buying her out.
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Unread 04-18-2017, 06:42 AM   #84
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Here is a link to the official announcement from Tonic Studios USA about the Tim Holtz Stamp Platform.....

https://blogtonicusa.wordpress.com/2...ping-platform/
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Unread 04-18-2017, 06:54 AM   #85
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Would love to know what they are changing. The picture on SSS seems to be the original version.
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Unread 04-18-2017, 07:25 AM   #86
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Would love to know what they are changing. The picture on SSS seems to be the original version.
I'd like a soda dispenser. That would differentiate it. ; )

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Unread 04-18-2017, 07:47 AM   #87
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Haha, that would do it.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that trial (if it ever gets to trial, which is looking unlikely).

Lawyers in suits, demonstrating the use of stamping platforms to a rapt jury. Exhibits A and B, images of Christmas mice or bears wearing sunhats and bathing suits, both cleanly and imperfectly stamped.
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Unread 04-18-2017, 08:31 AM   #88
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Haha, that would do it.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of that trial (if it ever gets to trial, which is looking unlikely).

Lawyers in suits, demonstrating the use of stamping platforms to a rapt jury. Exhibits A and B, images of Christmas mice or bears wearing sunhats and bathing suits, both cleanly and imperfectly stamped.
And after the trial, tables set up in the back for a free make-n-take and for jurors, the bailiff, guards and judge to buy either or both platforms,
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Unread 04-18-2017, 08:56 AM   #89
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You guys are cracking me up!
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Unread 04-18-2017, 12:29 PM   #90
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Tim has very often said that he is not an artist. His genuis is in ideas and concepts. None of his stamps were drawn by him, as far as I know.
I believe Kristina Werner designed the crazy cats and dogs for Tim....
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Unread 04-18-2017, 03:45 PM   #91
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Wow... I just did a search and read the lawsuit. MSP is not going to make friends by going after Tim Holtz. How sad.
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Unread 04-18-2017, 06:05 PM   #92
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I am new to stamping/card making. As a newbie, I quickly discovered I'm a poor stamper and need assistance. I looked into buying the Misti, but as a hobbiest, I couldn't justify the cost, especially given some of the problems reported (hinges, closed sides, cracking, special cleaning solution required). I was very excited to preorder the stamp platform in February for $32, and was anxiously waiting an April delivery.

I have mixed feelings over the alleged patent infringement. If I had invented something and companies started "ripping me off" I'd be angry too. BUT, if the Misti price was commensurate with the quality and what it does, I don't think so many people would be looking to buy a cheaper product, especially one that many perceive to be higher quality.

When I realized last week that I might never receive the Stamp Platform, I went to Ikea and bought a Hemmingsbo frame. With very little adapting, I have an adequate tool ($5 for the frame, $5 for alterations). I still want the Stamp Platform, but at least I have an affordable alternative.
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Unread 04-19-2017, 04:38 AM   #93
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I am new to stamping/card making. As a newbie, I quickly discovered I'm a poor stamper and need assistance. I looked into buying the Misti, but as a hobbiest, I couldn't justify the cost, especially given some of the problems reported (hinges, closed sides, cracking, special cleaning solution required). I was very excited to preorder the stamp platform in February for $32, and was anxiously waiting an April delivery.

I have mixed feelings over the alleged patent infringement. If I had invented something and companies started "ripping me off" I'd be angry too. BUT, if the Misti price was commensurate with the quality and what it does, I don't think so many people would be looking to buy a cheaper product, especially one that many perceive to be higher quality.

When I realized last week that I might never receive the Stamp Platform, I went to Ikea and bought a Hemmingsbo frame. With very little adapting, I have an adequate tool ($5 for the frame, $5 for alterations). I still want the Stamp Platform, but at least I have an affordable alternative.
Even if an item was made extremely well, priced low, and had terrific customer service, a good number of people would still want to purchase something different. We like our choices - in cars, blue jeans, inks - and stamp positioners.

Consider the simple acrylic stamping block. Some like them gridded, some prefer scalloped edges, others smooth, thicker, thinner, etc.

Tim's platform and the Misti have differences. Pretend they were priced identically and even sold by the same company. Still some would buy one and some the other. Just personal preference.

There were copies - almost exact - of the Misti, unfair and illegal. Tim's isn't a copy, and I think there will be enough differences that it will soon be in the marketplace. But neat you came up with a temporary solution. (Welcome to SCS!)
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Unread 04-19-2017, 05:06 AM   #94
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Well said, bjeans.

I think this is going to come down to whether the "concept" of the Misti can be patented. Or only the design.

The Tonic uses the concept, but is not a copy IMHO.

This coming from someone who learned the law watching Judge Judy, of course. !
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Unread 04-19-2017, 05:08 AM   #95
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Have you seen this? https://blogtonicusa.wordpress.com/2...ping-platform/
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Unread 04-19-2017, 05:18 AM   #96
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I just hope the "changes" are good ones. I liked the original design enough to preorder.
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Unread 04-19-2017, 09:36 AM   #97
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Hello All...

Was looking for Tim Holtz new stamp platform and was disappointed when I found that release (orignally April) has now been pushed back to late May. Do you think that it is a production issue or are they having a patent problem?
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Unread 04-19-2017, 09:41 AM   #98
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Hi Mary. If you read backwards on the thread, you'll see that there is a patent infringement suit happening at the moment. There's a link to Tonic's most recent communication about it on post #84.
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Unread 04-19-2017, 09:25 PM   #99
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Quote:
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Even if an item was made extremely well, priced low, and had terrific customer service, a good number of people would still want to purchase something different. We like our choices - in cars, blue jeans, inks - and stamp positioners.

Consider the simple acrylic stamping block. Some like them gridded, some prefer scalloped edges, others smooth, thicker, thinner, etc.

Tim's platform and the Misti have differences. Pretend they were priced identically and even sold by the same company. Still some would buy one and some the other. Just personal preference.

There were copies - almost exact - of the Misti, unfair and illegal. Tim's isn't a copy, and I think there will be enough differences that it will soon be in the marketplace. But neat you came up with a temporary solution. (Welcome to SCS!)
I wholeheartedly agree. This is business and Tonic's tool is innovation. The more I learn about the busines practices of MSP, the angrier I get. I put off buying this exhorbitant tool, even though I am lucky enough to be able to afford it. I felt for those who couldn't and felt we consumers were being taken for a ride. And then there were threats of lawsuits to DIYers... some for posting a video of a hack with a frame, another for using a DVD case! (I think the DVD came out first, but good luck suing over that, MSP). DIYers were afraid to even say or write the name MISTI for fear of litigation or bullying!

I was...I am so disgusted. Not just for the suit against Tonic but for personally mentioning Tim Holtz in the papers and boasting about "millions in sales"!!! Here was supposedly this poor little one woman company crying over being manhandled and stolen from and all the while profitting millions for a tool made for pennies in China on the backs of grannies, homemakers and hobbyists.

Somehow moving the manufacturing from the US to China made the price increase from $40 to $60. How does that work?

And it wasn't enough to charge a small fortune, but to require special costly solutions for maintenance, lest the short warranty disintegrate too. Speaking of, MSP initally blamed the consumer for the breakdown of its substandard materials, disavowed the warranty whenever possible and required shipping at the consumer's expense for physical inspection, despite clear photographic evidence of breakdown. All the while, there was an actual (known?) defect in the first few runs. This is the history of this greedy company.

I want to smash my MISTI... but what good would that do. I'd rather wait for the Tonic and sell the pink contraption at a loss. I am so sorry I caved and bought one. There are ways to make money, ways to run a business and even ways to bring a lawsuit. All of this is very telling.

Also, did anyone else notice that the patent was for a rectangular platform...yet Tonic and WRMK are square? Just saying...

Sorry for the rant.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 02:16 AM   #100
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Gdoreen, no apology needed for saying what you think. I have to agree, they have played big on the 'poor woman trying to set up a business should be supported', but I too noticed the line in the papers filed that said 'she had achieved millions in sales'. Whether that means millions of $$'s, or millions of units, either way that's a healthy bank balance!
I also agree that the price point, especially for a made in china item, is extortionate. On that point alone, I have refused to cave in and buy one. I have the same mindset on my crafting purchases as I do any other purchase, I want the best value for my money, and no way could I justify the cost of her gadget. I'm truly shocked that threats were made to DIYers. That really is over the line.
I'd been looking at some of the other versions, and very nearly committed to one, when I saw the video for Tonic/Tims Stamping Platform. Never ever having had a quality issue with any of their products before, and I liked the features on it, so I'm waiting for that.
I hadn't noticed the patent was for a rectangular version, well spotted, I'm guessing that's another reason the Tonic one will be cleared.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 03:56 AM   #101
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I didn't know about the threats to DIYers.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 09:24 AM   #102
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I didn't know about the threats to DIYers.
That happened on another site...
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Unread 04-20-2017, 09:25 AM   #103
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So far this thread has been mostly about the product that Tonic put out. Has there been any talk about WRMK precision press?
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Unread 04-20-2017, 09:35 AM   #104
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I got a WRMK precision press and I like it. I do have to sometimes tack down my paper but that's not a problem for me.I'm not doing massive amounts of stamping so this helps me line of things easier. As I understand it's due to the legal issues, it is no longer being sold.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 12:35 PM   #105
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I got a WRMK precision press and I like it. I do have to sometimes tack down my paper but that's not a problem for me.I'm not doing massive amounts of stamping so this helps me line of things easier. As I understand it's due to the legal issues, it is no longer being sold.
I own and love my WRMK precision press, and purchased another one recently. Are you saying that WRMK is also embroiled in a legal action, or are you referring to the Tonic which we are discussing?

I asked the question, as so far I see no adverse publicity about WRMK?
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Unread 04-20-2017, 12:48 PM   #106
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Odd. I went onto the WRMK site and saw no notices and was able to load one into a cart. And yet the tool looks WAY more like the MISTI than the Tonic Stamp Platform. But no magnetic base. Open sides (like the Tonic). But hinged.

So color me confused.

Maybe the pre-existence of the WRMK Letter Press is the thing, which I've never seen but people keeep referring to. They adapted an existing product. ????
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Unread 04-20-2017, 01:00 PM   #107
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The WRMK does not use the foam or magnets. A couple of weeks ago the WRMK was deeply discounted and some shopping sites showed it as discontinued ( and still are). Now sites are selling it again so add me to the confused list.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 01:58 PM   #108
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How does it adapt between cling and clear? The hinging?
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Unread 04-20-2017, 02:29 PM   #109
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How does it adapt between cling and clear? The hinging?
Yes, the hinging allows you to take the top off and flip it depending on whether you're stamping rubber (thicker) or photopolymer (thinner). Tim demos in his videos. But here's a short video I found that shows flipping in the first seconds. : )


Tim Holtz for Tonic New Stamp Platform Tool
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Unread 04-20-2017, 02:39 PM   #110
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No, I mean the WRMK one. If it doesn't use a foam pad.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 03:22 PM   #111
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No, I mean the WRMK one. If it doesn't use a foam pad.
The WRMK press has "floating" hinges that allow it to adjust for different thickness of stamps. You "jiggle" it a little, and the hinges change. There are videos on Youtube that show it in action.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 03:50 PM   #112
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Okay. So I'm failing to see how it gets a pass while the Tonic doesn't. Why isn't WRMK being sued?

(I have my theories. But I am keeping them to myself.)
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Unread 04-20-2017, 03:55 PM   #113
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The WRMK press has "floating" hinges that allow it to adjust for different thickness of stamps. You "jiggle" it a little, and the hinges change. There are videos on Youtube that show it in action.
Wow what kind of Precision Press do you have? Mine does not have to be jiggled, you simply open it like the Misti. As well' this is The first I have heard of " floating hinges" anywhere describing this tool.

I am not being snarky ( lol) but your description does not match the way mine works. This is confusing ( scratching head).
I mentioned previously that I watched at least 10 video comparisons of this compared to the Misti, which is what prompted my decision to buy. It is the Holtz product that you have to reverse the top to accommodate clear or cling.

On another note, I have heard that if your paper sticks ( not had that problem) it is because of your stamp .....so you simply wash it. This is particular to new stamps that have not been conditioned apparently.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 04:03 PM   #114
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Default Have you seen Tim Holtz stamp positioner

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Okay. So I'm failing to see how it gets a pass while the Tonic doesn't. Why isn't WRMK being sued?

(I have my theories. But I am keeping them to myself.)
Perhaps if you watch a video on both products you will see they are " significantly"different.

Perhaps that would help clarify especially if you watch a video comparing misti to WRMK and then watch the original Tonic intro.

Patents are very complicated and can rest on the smallest if things. I have a friend who did copy a product, with a Little change. Fortunately her father was a lawyer who referred her to a Patent Attorney . He advised her on what she had to tweek. The person who brought suit lost, because my friend knew what she had to do to get her product protected. Simple as that,just the smallest thing sometimes is all it takes.
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Unread 04-20-2017, 05:12 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canada goose View Post
Wow what kind of Precision Press do you have? Mine does not have to be jiggled, you simply open it like the Misti. As well' this is The first I have heard of " floating hinges" anywhere describing this tool.

I am not being snarky ( lol) but your description does not match the way mine works. This is confusing ( scratching head).
I mentioned previously that I watched at least 10 video comparisons of this compared to the Misti, which is what prompted my decision to buy. It is the Holtz product that you have to reverse the top to accommodate clear or cling.

On another note, I have heard that if your paper sticks ( not had that problem) it is because of your stamp .....so you simply wash it. This is particular to new stamps that have not been conditioned apparently.
I probably didn't describe it well with my term "jiggle". The hinges "adjust" to the thickness of the stamp you are using. They move up and down according to the thickness, hence "floating", a term I saw on someone's blog. Here is a blog post where she reviews the WRMK press. Scroll down a bit to: Type of Stamps."


Giraffe Creations by Yar: Review: WRMK Precision Press Tool & video


I own a Misti, and recently got the WRMK from HSN during a special sale. After I tried it out, I decided I liked the Misti just as well, or better, and didn't really need two, so I returned it.
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Unread 04-21-2017, 01:20 AM   #116
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I just Googled the WRMK press, and it's definitely for sale in many places over here. I noticed that they do in fact say in the description that it is 'Inspired by the WRMK Letterpress Platform', so I'm guessing the fact it's an improvement on a system they already had in production may have some part in this.
Canada Goose, I think you have the right of the situation there- I'm also guessing that the Tonic platform, and quite probably the WRMK platform were run past Patents lawyers first- I can't see either of them being foolish enough not to have done this, knowing MISTI were applying for a patent. Both will have invested a lot of money in production, and advertising, and would not want that financial hit, nor the adverse publicity against their names.
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Unread 04-21-2017, 04:51 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by shazsilverwolf View Post
I just Googled the WRMK press, and it's definitely for sale in many places over here. I noticed that they do in fact say in the description that it is 'Inspired by the WRMK Letterpress Platform', so I'm guessing the fact it's an improvement on a system they already had in production may have some part in this.
Canada Goose, I think you have the right of the situation there- I'm also guessing that the Tonic platform, and quite probably the WRMK platform were run past Patents lawyers first- I can't see either of them being foolish enough not to have done this, knowing MISTI were applying for a patent. Both will have invested a lot of money in production, and advertising, and would not want that financial hit, nor the adverse publicity against their names.
Stampers reported using the WRMK Letterpress as a stamp positioner before the Misti, so it would seem like a logical step for WRMK.
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Unread 04-21-2017, 07:08 AM   #118
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Just thought I'd share my experience with two tools. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, and just felt I should share mine. I'm certainly not criticizing those who feel differently! I've tried the letterpress and the WRMK for stamping. The floating hinge on both tools were not consistently as precise as the MISTI. I've no regrets purchasing my MISTI tools. In general tools for crafting aren't cheap. I know Iliana personally, and she's a wonderful person. It wasn't easy for her, and she had a rough time marketing her wonderful MISTI. When one considers powerful companies like Sizzix (Tonic products), WRMK, others, and their connections in the manufacturing market it's not surprising they can sell cheaper. I believe Sizzix has their own factory equipment. I totally understand Iliana protecting her creation. I think most in her shoes would do the same.
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Unread 04-21-2017, 07:10 AM   #119
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Default Have you seen Tim Holtz. Stamp positioner

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Originally Posted by buggainok View Post
I probably didn't describe it well with my term "jiggle". The hinges "adjust" to the thickness of the stamp you are using. They move up and down according to the thickness, hence "floating", a term I saw on someone's blog. Here is a blog post where she reviews the WRMK press. Scroll down a bit to: Type of Stamps."


Giraffe Creations by Yar: Review: WRMK Precision Press Tool & video


I own a Misti, and recently got the WRMK from HSN during a special sale. After I tried it out, I decided I liked the Misti just as well, or better, and didn't really need two, so I returned it.
Thanks Bugga, now I get what you meant I have a friend in AZ where I teach there, and only one person in the class of 15 to have a Misti. When I showed the girls how my Precission Press worked she said she liked mine better because of the options.as a result the ladies saw both in action and as previously mentioned purchased the WRMK. I personally like the options this gizmo has over the Misti. But once again Kudos to Illiana because someone had to get the idea in the first place.
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Unread 04-22-2017, 02:29 AM   #120
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Hi Guys, I had an email response yesterday from the company I have my Tonic Platform pre ordered at. I'd e-mailed and asked if they had any new update, pending the legal challenge, and this was the reply:
"We have spoken to our supplier and they have advised that they are still waiting on the Tim Holtz stamping platform from the manufacturer which is quite normal as there can be manufacturing and transport delays which has had nothing to do with the MISTI legal challenge in the USA. Although they were expected about the 17th April there has been a slight delay and we will now see them about the 28th April. "
So it appears from that the suppliers are still intending to ship them.
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