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Old 01-21-2009, 09:01 AM   #41
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Thank you so much to the OP for bringing this to my attention, as I had no idea, and it had not occured to me to check the angel policy for either the CB (provocraft) or the nesties! There has been some good conversation on this thread as well, so I guess I'll add my opinion for what it is worth....

I totally understand the purpose and need for copyright laws. I think Julie's post summarized it nicely. However, I believe that provocraft's policy goes way beyond this purpose. If I am making a card using a CB cardfront and a stamped image to sell, I believe I am actually promoting their product, not taking from them. Is buying my card going to stop a person from buying that embossing folder so they can make cards themselves? No. Now, if I am selling them a package of CB'd cardfronts to use in making their cards, then yes I am taking money from provocraft and I think it is reasonable for the Angel Policy to prohibit that. So in my opinion, their policy is unreasonable for crafters. However, it is the policy, so I will abide by it. Unfortunately that means I will think long and hard before I buy any more of their product since it will have to be strictly for personal use.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:11 AM   #42
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I just Googled the Sizzix copy right policy and here it is
http://www.sizzix.com/angel

They seem to be more accommodating to those who have a little card selling business.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:33 AM   #43
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jkstampin - I totally agree.

I think Provocraft does take their policy too far. Very restrictive.

So does this mean that people who use yarn to make items like mittens, hats, scarves...and sell them on Etsy.com - that is illegal? I mean technically that yarn was not created by them, right? So they are using someone else's design & yarn "style" and making a profit from it. eeek!

seems silly to me.

I am 100% on board with Copyright Laws where they run the risk of putting people out of business or taking away from their profits, etc. But as jkstampin said - I'm not trying to mass produce embossed pieces of papers to sell to other stampers. I'm producing something unique, creative (and small, not mass-produced) that when completed, is going to be given to someone as a gift.

just my .02
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:52 AM   #44
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I guess this means that since Sizzix is now producing embossing folders, we'll be buying them--instead of ProvoCraft's--so that we can sell our cards if we wish. Sadly, restricting the use of the Cuttlebug folders will only hurt both ProvoCraft and their respective artists by causing loss of revenue. Good job by them in cutting off the hands that feed them . . .
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:57 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieHRR View Post
Well, it's very well known that Disney will not hesitate, no matter how small and inconsequential a crafter might think they are.

Provo Craft has purchased licenses from Disney, to produce Disney images on various craft products.





If they can't make a living because others are profiting off their intellectual property, no matter what it is, no matter how little, without permission, they eventually quit and go take jobs in other fields where they can.

It's a much bigger picture, and you can't just look at it from the perspective of, "Well, *little ol' me* is not making big money."
i'm sorry but it's not like provo craft is in the card-making business. they make these products so that people CAN MAKE CARDS. in NO way would this be taking money away from them, it would actually do the opposite. provo craft doesn't sell pre-embossed pieces of paper to be used on cards, so they would not loose money by somebody producing their own and selling it. there's no lost revenue there. they shouldn't sell products that MAKE things (die cuts, embossed paper etc) if they don't want people to make stuff with it.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:22 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by 53queenbee View Post
How do they know? Is there a police force for craft shows? I swear they are taking all the fun out of this. They should be glad their product is selling right now!
I totally agree!!! I mean, it's not like we are out to steal their designs and things.... we're using them!!! What did they intend us to do with them?? As far as the cricut goes - there is no way anyone would pay $59.99 and up for the cartridges and NOT use them more than once for a design. Shame on their policies!
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jkstampin View Post
Thank you so much to the OP for bringing this to my attention, as I had no idea, and it had not occured to me to check the angel policy for either the CB (provocraft) or the nesties! There has been some good conversation on this thread as well, so I guess I'll add my opinion for what it is worth....

I totally understand the purpose and need for copyright laws. I think Julie's post summarized it nicely. However, I believe that provocraft's policy goes way beyond this purpose. If I am making a card using a CB cardfront and a stamped image to sell, I believe I am actually promoting their product, not taking from them. Is buying my card going to stop a person from buying that embossing folder so they can make cards themselves? No. Now, if I am selling them a package of CB'd cardfronts to use in making their cards, then yes I am taking money from provocraft and I think it is reasonable for the Angel Policy to prohibit that. So in my opinion, their policy is unreasonable for crafters. However, it is the policy, so I will abide by it. Unfortunately that means I will think long and hard before I buy any more of their product since it will have to be strictly for personal use.
yes exactly well said! I wouldn't want people to by my stamps then stamp 50 images and sell them on ebay for $20. But if you are buying them to make and sell finished cards or crafts (not kits) I say have at it. I cant tell you how many time I have seen someone selling a finished card or something and have said "wow that cute where on earth did you find that"...... Then I have gone out and found it to use myself. Free advertising!!!
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:02 PM   #48
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Very interesting topic ladies I love this exchange of opinions and ideas. Here are some of mine, and they don't have copyrights

Reading through the angel policies posted in this thread, I can see that they do allow us to sell our craft items that were made using their products in small or local scale like that of craft shows or art fairs. When the product companies were writing these policies, I think they were pertaining to those who abuse their products through mass production and making huge profits out of it. Who among us from SCS alone has mass produced cards and made thousands of dollars, let's say, in one year? If and when I do sell cards, I'd be very happy to just get back what I paid for for the table or space I got in a craft show, which in my area would be $30.

Here's what I think:

- even if we sell our cards, the odds of us making a lot of money is very small. How many cards can one person make to earn at least hundreds of dollars? That's what I like about Wizard's policy because it's specifically stated that "Please do not mass-produce, allow production by hired workers or produce your work in assembly line fashion."

- I totally agree that our use of their products is free advertisement. Knowing each other, we tend to want what others have when it comes to this expensive hobby of ours. When I go to craft shows and see vendors who sell handmade cards, I like to know (and ask the vendor) a specific tool they used if I really like how it looked, and would definitely buy one for myself.

- Maybe this won't make sense, but when it comes to cardmaking for example, can anyone tell me the numbers/percentage between those who sell for a profit and those who sell for fun? Because if I will sell cards in a craft show, I'm doing it for fun And if there's a profit, it just goes back to the market to buy more tools and supplies for this hobby.

- I think a lot of people are giving a different meaning to Intellectual Property Rights. What I know about it is IPR is protection from those who steal somebody's ideas (creations of the mind) in the form of artwork, inventions, designs, etc (thus intellectual) for a profit through reproduction and adaptation. If I sell a card with an embossed background using a Cuttlebug folder and a colored stamped image from Inkadinkado, I don't think that's stealing from ProvoCraft or Inkadinkado. I created a card using tools and materials, and that Cuttlebug folder is a tool, among with the other tools that I used like the papercutter, stamp, scissors, punches, etc. Nestabilities dies are tools. Stamps are tools. The magazines and books classify them as tools. They do wear out or break but they are not consummable like glue, ink or paper. If they are not tools, what are they? Now, if I create an embossing folder that is exactly like any of the Cuttlebug folders, or create a scalloped oval that is exactly the same as that of Nestabilities and sell them, or re-package these products and put my own label on it, that is stealing and is, I believe, a violation of IPR. I don't see any difference with woodworkers who build and sell wonderful furniture and use special tools to give shape and texture to their chairs and tables, to us cardmakers who make cards and use special tools to make our cards look beautiful, and let's say, sell them. If we sell our cards, I don't consider that stealing from these wonderful companies. We paid for these tools for us to use and create with. And what we create using these tools are our creations. Provocraft, Wizard, Sizzix, Stampin' Up and all of these other companies created their products with tools too. Just like what CandyStripe said, we are just using these tools as a framework of our own creations. And I don't think selling our creations is selfish. I think it is selfish for these companies to tell us what to do with these products that we paid for with our hard earned money. You mean to tell me, it is ok to resell an already used Cuttlebug embossing folder for double the price on Ebay but it is not ok to sell a card created with a variety of tools and materials, including a Cuttlebug embossing folder for a 50 cent profit?

- I also agree that it is a different story if we sell embossed card fronts of Cuttlebug or stamped images of Stampin' Up, CTMH or any other stamp companies, or renaming a digital scrapbooking element file and selling it as your own. Because there is no creativity involved in there. You didn't create. You just reproduced, or shall we say, mass produced these items. I consider it the same as photocopying an artwork and selling them. Or burning multiple copies of Beyonce's CD and selling them. That is piracy. And that is selfish.

- However, if it is written and supported by law, as stated by these companies' policies, we do have to abide by it. Come to think of it, why don't these companies print these specific policies in their packaging so the buyers can be aware of it. Not all people who buy these products go to the official websites to read legalities and stuff. Very few people do. I myself haven't read any of these policies until chancing upon this thread. (I know I just said what CandyStripe said in her post, but I just wanted to say it again.)

- Can anyone tell me if there has been a single cardmaker like us, who has sold some cards, made a few dollars profit, and were sued by these companies?

- What about the other countries who are actually pirating these products because the scrapbooking/stamping/card making tools that are available here in the US are really hard to get from their end? Those products that are actually made in China for example, don't you think that they are not being repackaged and sold elsewhere? What about the crafters from outside the US who sell their creations using these tools, whose country's currency value is a lot lesser than the US dollar?

Thank you ladies for a very interesting and healthy discussion. I'm looking forward to more of what you think

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Old 01-21-2009, 06:36 PM   #49
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This is deep, really deep...
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:43 PM   #50
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I don't know what to make of this but this is from the Provo Crafts web site:

It says items can be sold a craft fairs, etc, but -----

"2. Any craftwork to be sold must not incorporate third-party copyrighted material. The craftwork must contain only Provo Craft products that are sold under the Provo Craft trademark. "

So a person is not allowed to use rubber stamps or such


http://www.provocraft.com/company/le...gel.policy.php
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:06 PM   #51
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So, I know I already added my two cents, but thought I would drop in a couple more

I was just reading what SKICIO wrote, and that was very similar to what I was popping back in here to add. I was talking to my hubby about it this evening, he is a carpenter - his opionion was along the lines of "thats ridiculous" its a tool - that would be like him building something, using a certain brand of saw, and being requried to give the tool credit and follow rules and guidlines set out by the company that made the tool - sounded even more silly to me when he put it in those terms. I totally understand the copyright laws in regards to art work - and even giving credit when using the provocraft products - I don't have a problem with that - but I do think it is a little silly comparing the copyright laws in regards to artwork with an embossing folder that consists of dots or some other simple pattern that I could just as easily get somewhere else. And personally, I have no problem taking my business elsewhere if that is what I must do.

Really, for me, I think the biggest issue I have with it is telling me I cannot mix provo-craft items with any other items for profit - seems wrong. Having a policy to give credit is one thing, but telling me how I MUST use the product - just seems like a bit much.
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Old 01-22-2009, 03:56 AM   #52
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There certainly ARE craft show police!

I know people have been shut down for using NFL/College, Disney, etc. fabrics for pillows and photo albums. There is always a big furor over this one on my sewing boards with regard to the legality of this.

People have also been shut down for selling knockoffs of Taggie blankets, which are patented.

Shoot, people have been shut down for not having tax/resale licenses from the state. If you're out there selling, you really need to follow the letter of the law; it doesn't matter if you think it's silly, it's the law.
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Old 01-22-2009, 04:38 AM   #53
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Hmm, I wonder what would happen if the companies that make artists' materials, such as paints, pencils, papers, etc. stated that an artist couldn't sell any paintings made with their products. And what about the paint brushes? If I buy something from a company, especially tools, I should be able to use that item in ANY way I see fit. Once I buy it, it's MINE. The company has gotten its money, and now I should have a right to earn mine. (I'm not talking about music, books, or artwork here.) By the way, how can a company copyright a square, circle, or other basic shape? JMHO.
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Old 01-22-2009, 04:43 AM   #54
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This policy is similar to Stampin' Up!'s, but is a bit more restrictive. I agree with earlier post -- these vendors should be grateful their products are selling so well in this economy and should be doing everything they can to keep it that way. Having such a restrictive policy will only hurt them in the end. If it stops people from buying, how does that help them? As for "police-ing" the policies. Nearly impossible to do and I would think quite expensive to pay people to try and track down the offenders. These companies seem to think people are cranking out thousands of cards for sale every month and selling them hand over fist. We all know that's not the case. I take issue with the policies that allow sales "during a season, at craft fairs, at fundraisers" etc. but stop short of selling in a retail location year-round. Why is it ok some days, but not others? I have drastically cut down on my SU purchases for this very reason. There are plenty of exciting new companies out there (A Muse, PTI, Gina K and others) that do allow use and have a great product line. Sooner or later these big companies will start to lose serious revenue as people go elsewhere. I for one would rather deal with real people (Gina, Nichole, etc.) who are actually stampers themselves (!) than a corporate office of EK Success or Martha Stewart that knows nothing of real crafting and is only focused on the bottom line. There are plenty of revenue dollars from the stamping and scrapbooking industry and KUDOS to the companies that do not restrict our use of their products!
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Old 01-22-2009, 04:45 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crowfeather View Post
I don't know what to make of this but this is from the Provo Crafts web site:

It says items can be sold a craft fairs, etc, but -----

"2. Any craftwork to be sold must not incorporate third-party copyrighted material. The craftwork must contain only Provo Craft products that are sold under the Provo Craft trademark. "

So a person is not allowed to use rubber stamps or such


http://www.provocraft.com/company/le...gel.policy.php

That's what it sounds like -- you can only sell a ProvoCraft material item, no other vendors' images or supplies allowed.

No, thank you. Time to weed out the ProvoCraft stuff and get it on eBay. Unless people stop using these products, nothing will change.
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Old 01-22-2009, 05:52 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdislandgirl View Post
This policy is similar to Stampin' Up!'s, but is a bit more restrictive. I agree with earlier post -- these vendors should be grateful their products are selling so well in this economy and should be doing everything they can to keep it that way. Having such a restrictive policy will only hurt them in the end. If it stops people from buying, how does that help them? As for "police-ing" the policies. Nearly impossible to do and I would think quite expensive to pay people to try and track down the offenders. These companies seem to think people are cranking out thousands of cards for sale every month and selling them hand over fist. We all know that's not the case. I take issue with the policies that allow sales "during a season, at craft fairs, at fundraisers" etc. but stop short of selling in a retail location year-round. Why is it ok some days, but not others?
Quote:
I have drastically cut down on my SU purchases for this very reason.
There are plenty of exciting new companies out there (A Muse, PTI, Gina K and others) that do allow use and have a great product line. Sooner or later these big companies will start to lose serious revenue as people go elsewhere. I for one would rather deal with real people (Gina, Nichole, etc.) who are actually stampers themselves (!) than a corporate office of EK Success or Martha Stewart that knows nothing of real crafting and is only focused on the bottom line. There are plenty of revenue dollars from the stamping and scrapbooking industry and KUDOS to the companies that do not restrict our use of their products!
You might not be aware of this yet, but SU has actually changed their angel policy, I think last year.
Check it out here. You are now allowed to sell your cards with their stuff even on the internet. That is why I am going to buy their texture plates now instead of Cuttlebug folders.
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:27 AM   #57
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I've been a huge fan of the Cuttlebug embossing folders.........BUT I think I will quit buying anything Provo Craft if that's the case!!!!!

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Old 01-22-2009, 07:18 AM   #58
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I think it is the fair organizers who are the "Craft Police". I think they can also be held liable for vendors who sell things that are not allowed. Many years ago a friend made Raggedy Ann and Andy stuffed dolls for the one fair she attended each year. She got the pattern from a major pattern company ( McCalls, Simplicity, etc) It was a three day fair. Everyone had to be totally set up one hour each day before the fair opened to the public. The organizers checked each table. She was told she could not sell her dolls. She lost her entrance fee, an entire year of sewing and the cost of all of her materials. She ended up donating them to the "Toys for Tots" AND got a receipt in case the company tried to sue her. After that she never attended a fair again. Breaking copyright can be costly.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:19 AM   #59
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i'm sorry but it's not like provo craft is in the card-making business. they make these products so that people CAN MAKE CARDS. in NO way would this be taking money away from them, it would actually do the opposite. provo craft doesn't sell pre-embossed pieces of paper to be used on cards, so they would not loose money by somebody producing their own and selling it. there's no lost revenue there. they shouldn't sell products that MAKE things (die cuts, embossed paper etc) if they don't want people to make stuff with it.
What I was trying to say, but, failed to communicate well :
  • Disregard of copyright/intellectual property rights hurts the industry and hurts creative professionals, whether we're talking "big time" manufacturer or small independently owned companies.
  • I sincerely believe (MHO) that anyone/everyone wanting to use someone else's intellectual property/copyrighted material for personal gain, no matter what type of personal gain (whether or not it's just "pin money" to buy more craft supplies is irrelevant), carries the responsibility for checking/inquiring on copyright and angel policy to make sure they are in compliance with the law.
And, of course, it goes without saying that if you don't like the policy, you can choose not to buy the product.

That's what I meant to communicate.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:08 AM   #60
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It would have never occurred to me that a "tool" such as a nestability die or a cuttlebug folder would carry restrictions on its use! What makes them different from a fancy-edged pair of scissors or a paper cutter?

They seem to fall into a category of "tools". I am aware of copyright laws, trademark restrictions, etc. because of being in the embroidery business.

We have to be careful that the designs we buy do allow for embroidering onto an item and offering that item for sale. There are designs that are sold called "stock" designs and embroiderers can purchase them for that purpose. Other companies create embroidery designs that are for personal use only, others allow a limited number of stitchouts to be done on items for sale.

Then we have to be concerned with any artwork that a customer might submit to us for digitizing into an embroidery design.....the copyright holder to that artwork must give permission for it to be used that way. You also really do not ever own an electronic embroidery design file that you purchase...you only hold the license to stitch it out. You can't sell the design file itself. I make every effort to always be in compliance. It is a battle sometimes. Some customers simply cannot understand why I can't stitch their favorite team's name ..... a violation of trademark, and a great way to lose my entire business.

So, that said, I guess I am kind of baffled as to why a company would limit the use of something that is a tool that we use in the execution of making a card. I don't understand how this is harmful to the company in any way. For the most part, a person who would purchase a card on Etsy or Ebay that has a cuttlebugged portion....is probably not the same person who would have otherwise purchased their own cuttlebug folder...the reason they buy the finished cards is because they prefer to buy finished items rather than make them themselves. However, like all of us, they like new and fresh designs.....so if I were a cardmaker who sold cards, I think I would be inclined to always buy new cuttlebug folders to keep my customers happy. Doesn't this benefit the company? On the other hand, if I can't sell cards made with those folders, then I therefore don't buy any folders....which I think hurts the company. But their policies are of course made at their discretion, and we have to abide. Good luck to them...doesn't seem like sound business practice to me!

I might mention that I have noticed that some embroidery companies have relaxed their policies with regards to stitching and selling their designs. Perhaps they realize that designs with so many usage restrictions simply are not purchased. We have to spend our design dollars on designs that we can actually use in the execution of our businesses. Perhaps some of the papercrafting companies will eventually relax their policies as well.

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Old 01-22-2009, 01:27 PM   #61
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Has anyone emailed them and asked why you can only use provocraft items on the item with no other copywrite material on it? Do provocraft produce cardstock, ribbon etc so that we can comply with this?
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:45 PM   #62
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I think it is the fair organizers who are the "Craft Police". I think they can also be held liable for vendors who sell things that are not allowed. Many years ago a friend made Raggedy Ann and Andy stuffed dolls for the one fair she attended each year. She got the pattern from a major pattern company ( McCalls, Simplicity, etc) It was a three day fair. Everyone had to be totally set up one hour each day before the fair opened to the public. The organizers checked each table. She was told she could not sell her dolls. She lost her entrance fee, an entire year of sewing and the cost of all of her materials. She ended up donating them to the "Toys for Tots" AND got a receipt in case the company tried to sue her. After that she never attended a fair again. Breaking copyright can be costly.
This is clearly copying of the original. Everybody knows Raggedy Ann and Andy are trademarks, and if you create one exactly like them and sell them is indeed a violation of IPR/Copyrights. It wasn't like she created a new kind of doll, but patterned it to the popular brand. I definitely understand why she was in that difficult situation.
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:49 PM   #63
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Since my friend Bought the pattern she thought is was OK to use it to make the dolls. My point was just because we buy a pattern or product doesn't mean we can make it to sell even at craft shows.

If people want totally copyright FREE illustrations there is a Great company called "Dover Publications"
They have books with designs and illustrations on almost any topic, and many come with a CD to print them. Their books are cheap. Most are $15-20. I have purchased from them for years. Just Google it.

With the CD you can print on card stock and then color.

Last edited by crowfeather; 01-22-2009 at 02:02 PM.. Reason: to add something rather than create another message
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:25 PM   #64
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Since my friend Bought the pattern she thought is was OK to use it to make the dolls. My point was just because we buy a pattern or product doesn't mean we can make it to sell even at craft shows.
Yes. I think this is what is often misunderstood or oversighted by folks--buying the pattern or a product with copyrighted artwork doesn't "entitle" the purchaser to use same for profit.

When you buy a rubber stamp, you are not buying the rights to the artwork itself; you ARE buying a piece of rubber, wood, foam, or whatever it is made of, and a limited license to reproduce that artwork within the guidelines the copyright owner has expressly consented to (personal use), and additionally, which may or may not include use for commercial purposes/personal gain or have stipulations for commercial use.

In the case of Cuttlebug embossing folders, yes, it is a tool, but it also has decorative design/artwork within it that is copyrighted and reproduced via the plastic folder. It's not "just" a piece of plastic in the generic sense of being a "tool".


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If people want totally copyright FREE illustrations there is a Great company called "Dover Publications"
They have books with designs and illustrations on almost any topic, and many come with a CD to print them. Their books are cheap. Most are $15-20. I have purchased from them for years. Just Google it.

With the CD you can print on card stock and then color.
I have some of those books from years and years ago (pre-CD)! They're awesome!
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:37 PM   #65
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In the case of the Swiss Dot folder, it is just dots.....can someone really copyright dots? They are fairly generic I would think, just rows of dots. They can hardly be considered artwork. The company can say they are copyrighted, but it is kind of questionable if something like that would even stand up in a court of law. I guess it is just easiest to avoid all the tools, artwork, etc. that has restrictions, and just purchase the things that can actually be used without having to think about it! I respect and abide by the policies of the various companies, but I don't believe that a court would back them up in all cases.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:40 PM   #66
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In the case of the Swiss Dot folder, it is just dots.....can someone really copyright dots? They are fairly generic I would think, just rows of dots. They can hardly be considered artwork. The company can say they are copyrighted, but it is kind of questionable if something like that would even stand up in a court of law. I guess it is just easiest to avoid all the tools, artwork, etc. that has restrictions, and just purchase the things that can actually be used without having to think about it! I respect and abide by the policies of the various companies, but I don't believe that a court would back them up in all cases.
Well, yes, agreed; that one might indeed be difficult to back up in court, due to dots being a generic shape.

I was thinking of the ones containing Disney artwork, or others that have a definite artistic design that goes beyond a generic geometric shape.

But, I can certainly understand their reasoning for a policy that goes "across the board", as opposed to one that says this one can, this one can't, etc. UKWIM?

In the case of Provo Craft, they have agreements with Disney they must uphold, not just their own.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:44 PM   #67
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I have pergamano grids and could emboss dots like Swiss dots so I agree that partiular folder pattern may not hold up in a law suit. However, many of their embossing folders are specific patterns and would be a different issue.

I agree, "IF" a person wants to sell cards they should buy stamps, designs or tools that are clearly allowed in making things to sell.

It is better to be safe than sorry.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:52 PM   #68
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I guess I partially understand artwork images but these items, stamps, tools, ect are to be used to make artwork. Not to mention I never even knew about the embossing folders policy or ever even saw it printed on any products I have purchased. I don't understand really why they care as long as items re handmade and not mass produced. All these companies are really doing is just forcing us to be "creative". I have seen someone selling envelopes and the card was free! Problem solved! I don't think there is a policy about giving items away.
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Old 01-22-2009, 03:16 PM   #69
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9. Copyrighted material of Provo Craft may not be altered in any manner, including but not limited to, masking or overlaying portions in the overall design. Any other alteration will be considered an infringement of copyright. In addition, Provo Craft expressly reserves all moral rights in any copyrighted material.

Okay this "rule" has me totally confused, does it mean I can't draw my own art work, (since my artwork is not copyrighted) and put it on top a cuttlebug embossed card? Or if I cutout a cardboard square and put it in the cb folder with the cardstock before I put it through the machine so that it makes a flat area that isn't embossed where I can write a message?
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Old 01-22-2009, 03:53 PM   #70
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Well, yes, agreed; that one might indeed be difficult to back up in court, due to dots being a generic shape.

I was thinking of the ones containing Disney artwork, or others that have a definite artistic design that goes beyond a generic geometric shape.

But, I can certainly understand their reasoning for a policy that goes "across the board", as opposed to one that says this one can, this one can't, etc. UKWIM?

In the case of Provo Craft, they have agreements with Disney they must uphold, not just their own.
I do understand about the Disney stuff....have heard many horror stories in connection with embroidery violations to know that they do prosecute. I am glad I don't care for Disney stuff and don't own any stamps, designs, artwork or anything related to Disney, so no worries there.

Along these same lines, seems like I have seen threads where people ask for certain images to be sent to them (because they don't own a particular stamp) and people offer to stamp them off and send them. I realize that it doesn't involve an exchange of money, but it still seems like this would take away from a company's potential sales.....
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Old 01-22-2009, 04:08 PM   #71
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I do understand about the Disney stuff....have heard many horror stories in connection with embroidery violations to know that they do prosecute. I am glad I don't care for Disney stuff and don't own any stamps, designs, artwork or anything related to Disney, so no worries there.

Along these same lines, seems like I have seen threads where people ask for certain images to be sent to them (because they don't own a particular stamp) and people offer to stamp them off and send them. I realize that it doesn't involve an exchange of money, but it still seems like this would take away from a company's potential sales.....

Yes, that's possible . . . there's no way to know whether the impact is positive or negative. But, as you said--in the above situation, the images are not being sold, and are hand-stamped (not mechanically reproduced).

I like buying the stamp to support the artists, so I don't trade images, etc. Plus, well, there's only so much you can do with an image pre-stamped in black ink, UKWIM? You can't emboss it, and if you wanted it in red, well, that ain't happenin', of course, unless you had the foresight to know you'd want it stamped in red in advance. But, my brain doesn't work like that when it comes to creative stuffs. LOL!
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:05 PM   #72
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Interesting conversation... I am a photographer and certainly understand the need to protect your rights to creative properties, however, I do believe that companies need to be practical in their establishment of their "rules" or they could suffer. I had to change some of my policies of how people use my images with the advent of the digital picture frames. its great publicity for me to have my images displayed in workplaces on digital picture frames and I have gotten additional jobs when people liked my work and wanted their family or pets done. One the other hand, I had to really think hard when a vendor wanted to use my images on one of their products (use my images as clock faces and on glass tiles). Because they wanted to reproduce my images as they needed, i had to put restrictions on the use of it. My point is, companies need to look at things globally and keep looking at case by case instances. Sometimes, when we write our policies today, someone will come up with something we never thought of tomorrow. You want to write a broad enough policy to protect your interest but not to "cut off your nose" as some of you have pointed out. I think Provo Craft is being unduly restricted with what is a tool intended for the production of cards (I love the carpenter saw analogy). Wouldn't it be crazy for a company to say you can only use this saw in the production of single family homes. No apartments or duplexes or sheds or toy boxes...just single family homes. And it cannot be used if you use an air gun int he building of the single family home. Nope, we just won't have that. Have to use a hammer. In a sense, that is what Provo Craft is doing and it does seem silly. But, it is what it is....

I know SU changed their policies a little recently (for the better for those of us who want to "sell") and I was involved in the embroidery world and saw many of them change their rules. Each of us have the power to affect these companies who have "rules" that seem restrictive. Its the power of the $$ and of bad publicity. If each of you who are peeved at the Provo Craft, tell them...both at the stores and in email or letters to them. Eventually, it will reach them and they may modify their stance. In the meantime, I hear Sizzix with their more relaxed stance and their deal with SU laughing all the way to the bank. And I for one, will be contributing my dollars their instead of what was my favorite tools... my cuttlebug folders...
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:03 AM   #73
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MJHBJS great idea to send them an email. I will do that, because they do sell great products and it would be awesome if they changed their angel policy a little!
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Old 01-23-2009, 07:05 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by CandyStripe View Post
I didn't know about that, so had a search and here's a link to explain the legalities for anyone who's interested.

http://www.provocraft.com/company/le...gel.policy.php


That will certainly make me think twice before I buy anymore.

I do use my sizzix texture plates a lot but there are some designs that they don't have that I would like.
I own a Cricut and agree on the tough restrictions but that's why I bought SCAL......Sure Cuts A Lot. It's a program to use with your Cricut that lets you cut out any fonts or dingbats on your computer. So fonts and dingbats and some clipart do not fall in the "cannot sell" area so I don't buy the cartridges any longer I just use my SCAL software! After spending almost $300.00 on a Cricut and then (my fault) finding out I really couldn't do much with it, I found a way to still get use out of it without buying more cartridges. Provo Craft says the software voids the warranty but the warranty is only a year old anyway and I'm into 2 years with my Cricut now. WOW did I ramble! Sorry
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Old 01-23-2009, 07:26 AM   #75
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- Can anyone tell me if there has been a single cardmaker like us, who has sold some cards, made a few dollars profit, and were sued by these companies?
Sorry to have cut your quote short but I had to answer this portion of the question. I sell on 3 sites. Provo Craft does.....let me say this nicely.....lurk around the sites. Here's what happened to me. When I first bought my Cricut over 2 years ago I had made some pages and cards that had some Cricut elements on them. I had a new toy and of course I was happy to use it and share the great things that it did! Did I think to go to Provo Crafts site to check their policy? No as I had been doing quilling all of my life and all of the rest was new to me. So what happens? I get an email from the Provo Craft police telling me I couldn't sell my items. REALLY! No.........I told them, REALLY! I was mad, sad and more mad. I tended not to believe the email so I asked for the number to Provo Craft and that way I could ask for that person to be for sure. Well, it's true. They do "police" the sites we sell on and make us return and not use our items anymore. Funny I found this thread today as I am getting ready to get rid of all my PC items and I wrote to them to tell them that too. Not that they are going to care, but it's the principal of the fact. I use a program with my Cricut that allows me to not use their cartridges but all of my other PC stuff is going out the door! Sorry to go on and on.
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:11 AM   #76
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The design restrictions was the number one reason I went with the Silouette over the Cricut. There are still issues with bought designs vs my own, but I haave the software to do it myself. Cricut was smart to bring out SCAL.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:58 PM   #77
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Sorry to have cut your quote short but I had to answer this portion of the question. I sell on 3 sites. Provo Craft does.....let me say this nicely.....lurk around the sites. Here's what happened to me. When I first bought my Cricut over 2 years ago I had made some pages and cards that had some Cricut elements on them. I had a new toy and of course I was happy to use it and share the great things that it did! Did I think to go to Provo Crafts site to check their policy? No as I had been doing quilling all of my life and all of the rest was new to me. So what happens? I get an email from the Provo Craft police telling me I couldn't sell my items. REALLY! No.........I told them, REALLY! I was mad, sad and more mad. I tended not to believe the email so I asked for the number to Provo Craft and that way I could ask for that person to be for sure. Well, it's true. They do "police" the sites we sell on and make us return and not use our items anymore. Funny I found this thread today as I am getting ready to get rid of all my PC items and I wrote to them to tell them that too. Not that they are going to care, but it's the principal of the fact. I use a program with my Cricut that allows me to not use their cartridges but all of my other PC stuff is going out the door! Sorry to go on and on.
Wow! Thanks for sharing this with us.

I guess writing to PC about our concerns is a good idea. And hopefully, if they receive a good amount of email from their consumers, they can consider "revising" their policies and make them more specific - for Cricut, embossing folders, etc.

I really love this "conversation" we are all having and it gives everybody a wider perspective of what else should we be educated about with regards to this hobby of ours. We would think that this is just all about play and having fun, but there are so many other things to consider and think about.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:48 PM   #78
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Subscribing.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:18 PM   #79
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The design restrictions was the number one reason I went with the Silouette over the Cricut. There are still issues with bought designs vs my own, but I haave the software to do it myself. Cricut was smart to bring out SCAL.
My understanding is that the Sure Cuts A Lot program is NOT made nor endorsed by ProvoCraft.

The Design Studio is made by Provocraft and works with existing cartridges, enabling a person to 'tweak' the existing cartridge die cuts (as I understand it). Sure Cuts A Lot allows the user to download dingbats, etc. and the possibilites are truly endless. As I understand it, a person can design pretty much ANYTHING with that program. Last I heard, ProvoCraft was trying their best to block this program.

I personally think ProvoCraft is shooting itself in the foot with its restrictive policies regarding sale of items made with their products. I for one am more than happy to utilize the companies that DO support the home crafter who is trying to make a few dollars to keep up their habit.

Hats off to all you wonderful companies with fabulous Angel Policies in place. You make our day!
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:25 PM   #80
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My understanding is that the Sure Cuts A Lot program is NOT made nor endorsed by ProvoCraft.

The Design Studio is made by Provocraft and works with existing cartridges, enabling a person to 'tweak' the existing cartridge die cuts (as I understand it). Sure Cuts A Lot allows the user to download dingbats, etc. and the possibilites are truly endless. As I understand it, a person can design pretty much ANYTHING with that program. Last I heard, ProvoCraft was trying their best to block this program.

I personally think ProvoCraft is shooting itself in the foot with its restrictive policies regarding sale of items made with their products. I for one am more than happy to utilize the companies that DO support the home crafter who is trying to make a few dollars to keep up their habit.

Hats off to all you wonderful companies with fabulous Angel Policies in place. You make our day!
Well put!!!!

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