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Well said, akstampmama. Over-reaction, misinformation, and just plain not reading the Q&A and viewing the video at SU, seem to be the thing today.
Challenge anyone who thinks the change is unreasonable to go to sites like Scor-Pal, Michaels, Martha and others and see if there is marketing of other competing (competing being the key word) craft companies on them. I would also challenge folks on the forums here to read the SCS forum rules about advertising products. These types of rules are not new to SU or any other craft company. It is simply not fair or informed to come down on SU for this.
To switch the focus slightly, the discussion posts on this subject pushed me over the edge today. Mainly a lurker here on SCS, I've made two decisions.
First, since SCS no longer has a focus on SU only, I won't be steering customers here anymore. I used to tell everyone about how great this site was and how inspiring. I saw the suggestion to not tell customers about SCS in another post today and think it's a great one. (Friend, I'd like to give you credit but I've forgotten your name.) Personally, however, I will continue to come to SCS and appreciate it as a resource for ideas on the SU galleries only (for a long time, have set my browser to go there only).
There is just too much negativity here, particularly about SU. Why would I want my customers to see that?
Second decision I made was to discontinue my subscription to the Weekly Inkling since it no longer focuses on SU products. Understand what SCS is trying to do but since it was bought and broadened to have other stamp companies, and since the forums are so negative, will limit my use. And the ads are getting annoying.
Respectfully,
Debbie O.
Proud Army wife (retired) and SU demo since 2003
Got a blog too, but since it's SU only perhaps shouldn't give the address here )
Are you for real?? If it wasn't for SCS, I would not have spent all the money I have on SU!!
And if it wasn't for my old demo telling me about SCS I would have not grown in the cardmaking craft and made all the freinds thatI have here at SCS.
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
Maybe all of the Galleries need to prohibit anyone from "advertising" Stampin' Up by refusing to acknowledge that their products were used on the examples posted. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander!
ANYWAY, how hypocritical is it that STAMPIN' UP sells other company's products (but not the full line), like punches - but prohibit links to buy different sizes or shapes. I'm sure there are more examples....
I have often thought about becoming a SU demonstrator, because I spend so much on stamping supplies and craft gadgets, and it would give me a bit of a "discount".
But I sure can get more "bang for the buck" by shopping around - AND there are some awesome new companies out there.
Seems like Stampin"Up is turning into just another MLM company - too bad.
Let me start off by saying that I am not a big SU! customer. In fact, I hardly own any SU! products at all. I find their pricing to be way high and unaffordable for me. However, I do really like to look at blogs and artwork created by SU! demos. 80% of the ideas I get from blogs, SCS, etc are featured using SU! products but I still take those ideas and make them my own using almost always 100% NON SU! products.
For 7 years I worked for a computer room AC company that was prestegious and expensive but boasted themselves as "the best". Do you know what those ACs were made of? The same crap you can buy at any AC supply store only it was painted a different color, had a different part number and was twice the money. The only thing that AC company actally made was microproccessors.
For the most part, from what I've seen, other than DP, color names and stamps, this is exactly how SU! operates. They take other company's products, have the company change the color of the product, stick their sticker on it and call it a SU! "exclusive". (This especially applies to their punches and other tools like the Fiskars Trimmer, etc.)
I'm sure SU considered and wrote this policy before the enonomy went in the toilet but it still surprises me that SU! would want to alienate ANYONE right now.
Consider this: Even if I used SU paper and stamps EXCLUSIVELY, I can buy a SU! circle punch for $20 through a demo. Or I can purchase the SAME EXACT PUNCH at Michaels for around $16 and with a coupon, that's a $12 savings over the SU! punch. Now I've just saved myself $12 and can buy a whole stamp set thru SU with that money. Even if I didn't use ONLY SU products, I'm going to spread my money across different product lines so this policy isn't going to help SU! at all! In fact, if anything, it's just going to push customers away. So I'm having a dificult time understanding the basis for this policy.
Personally, I think SU! is terrified of competition and this new policy projects an image that they are afraid their products are less than the best, too expensive or both. If SU! wants to keep loyalty and encourage growth, they need to ENCOURAGE ALL kinds of advertising on their demo's behalf and hey - maybe even lower prices! Hardly anyone is paying full price these days for anything let alone hobby supplies.
It will be real interesting to see how this pans out and what SU does to enforce it. I know they're probably depending on demos "ratting" each other out but I just think thats awful, too. What they need to do is to encourage their demos to build eachother UP and unite for SU! Not become divided over this (or any other) issue and almost encourage discord by ratting eachother out.
In addition to pitting demos against eachother, why does it appear that they're trying to eliminate Hobby demos? Now they've just pissed off the hobbyists and they've lost lots of that business all together.
I don't see how this is at all benifical to SU! I think they're scared about the competition and the growth of the papercrafting community and where they stand in between all of that. Because of that, I think EVERYONE affiliated with SU! will be affected. Even if you're a demo that completely agrees and will adhere to this policy, you may have many customers that don't agree and choose to go somewhere else for thier stamping stuff.
As for this being a part of the General forum and not limited to the demo side, I think that's completely unfair. Customers have a right to understand and discuss the opinions of the companies they buy from. SU! may be able to regulate their own demos but this is still America and we, THE GENERAL PUBLIC, can still talk about it regardless.
(Hopping off my soapbox now. Sorry it was so long. lol)
ETA: Earlier in this thread, someone compared this policy to the concept that if you were a Tupperware demo, you wouldn't push Rubbermaid products. Which is true...you wouldn't take a Rubbermaid product to show off at a Tupperware party. But in their own PERSONAL kitchen cabinet, how many Tupperware demos have at least one Rubbermaid (or other brand) item? And based on the SU! Policy, ANY Tupperware demo can't tell their sister to pick up a cute dress at Target because Target sells rubbermaid. Please, it's ridiculous.
Let's revisit this theory with Avon. Naturally, you wouldn't bring Maybeline or Covergirl products to an Avon show but I'm willing to bet that if you inspected ANY Avon rep's purse or make up bag, you'd find that classic pink & green tube of Maybeline mascara or the Covergirl classic powder compact. Not only that, but when the Avon rep walks into her local pharmacy and sees NYC nailpolish on sale for $1 and HEY - that color pink is so close to the "blushing bride" Avon nail polish. Do you think they actually BYPASS the NYC ON SALE nailpolish for Avon? You can bet your britches they DO NOT. You can also bet your britches that the Avon rep doesn't NOT tell their mother, who also buys Avon, not to pick up the Buy One Get One shampoo special at Walgreens because Walgreens sells products that "compete" with Avon. Again, it would be INSANE to think that.
ETA AGAIN: Please excuse all the misspellings and grammar mistakes. I've typed all of this in such a frenzy and rush taht I didn't bother to spell check or correct! I'm really not that bad! lol
__________________ Sophia I got a reality check but it bounced.
This is just an inaccurate assessment of the situation. Well meaning, I am sure, but still inaccurate. SCS was started by a SU demo for her customers and downline, so in essence it could be interpreted as the other way around. It grew early on as many other demonstrators and their customers participated here. To imply that SU has grown by leaps and bounds since the inception of SCS is also inaccurate. Until the last couple of years, the top performers in sales and recruiting have not even been active on these type of sites. In the last couple of years a few demonstrators have clearly benefited from SCS, but not SU as a whole. The recent struggles and declining numbers for SU can be as easily explained by a bad economy and internet competition as a whole and compare to most companies struggling in the current economy. They have made several business moves to tighten their belts, and secure their business model for the future, this is just one component that ultimately impacts a relatively small number of demonstrators. However, given the number of demonstrators with blogs, if they don't make some guidelines now, who knows how many it would impact down the road. There is still a large portion of SU customers who don't participate on the internet, which would be about 90% of mine. I think most people can look at this move and use some sound judgement to see the business reasoning behind it. Especially once we can weed out the facts from the comments that are just wild assumptions.
I think SU did let things slide for quite a while because this site was owned by a SU rep, but that is no longer the case. The site is now owned by outside business entities and many other businesses are represented here and SU owes them no special consideration or vice versa. The fact is that SCS would also miss the many SU demonstrators who still hang out here as well as their many customers. They would probably prefer that we let them speak for themselves. There is plenty of benefit to go around for all as far as that is concerned. There are a bunch of SU people who come here, read their ads and buy from the member companies, even if they can't link their blogs here. A couple of my posts have been eaten today too, so I wanted to post this again for Holly, and thanks to those who have responded kindly to my posts.
Holly,
Yes SU has said that there will be some overlap where some demonstrators will appear to be out of compliance, when really they are working with SU's permission as they fulfill their contracts. SU is working with demonstrators on an individual basis. It seems like the only issues might be with people who have open ended contracts or agreements with no real end date. So I guess that would be where design teams will need to also be willing to work with demonstrators if those design team members wish to remain SU demonstrators. But yes, it is my understanding that they will be allowed to fulfill all of their commitments, just not for an indefinite period.
Are you seriously saying that SU "put up" with SCS because it was founded by an SU demo??
__________________ The quickest way for a parent to get a child's attention is to sit down and look comfortable. Practice safe eating always use condiments
Let me start off by saying that I am not a big SU! customer. In fact, I hardly own any SU! products at all. I find their pricing to be way high and unaffordable for me. However, I do really like to look at blogs and artwork created by SU! demos. 80% of the ideas I get from blogs, SCS, etc are featured using SU! products but I still take those ideas and make them my own using almost always 100% NON SU! products.
For 7 years I worked for a computer room AC company that was prestegious and expensive but boasted themselves as "the best". Do you know what those ACs were made of? The same crap you can buy at any AC supply store only it was painted a different color, had a different part number and was twice the money. The only thing that AC company actally made was microproccessors.
For the most part, from what I've seen, other than DP, color names and stamps, this is exactly how SU! operates. They take other company's products, have the company change the color of the product, stick their sticker on it and call it a SU! "exclusive". (This especially applies to their punches and other tools like the Fiskars Trimmer, etc.)
I'm sure SU considered and wrote this policy before the enonomy went in the toilet but it still surprises me that SU! would want to alienate ANYONE right now.
Consider this: Even if I used SU paper and stamps EXCLUSIVELY, I can buy a SU! circle punch for $20 through a demo. Or I can purchase the SAME EXACT PUNCH at Michaels for around $16 and with a coupon, that's a $12 savings over the SU! punch. Now I've just saved myself $12 and can buy a whole stamp set thru SU with that money. Even if I didn't use ONLY SU products, I'm going to spread my money across different product lines so this policy isn't going to help SU! at all! In fact, if anything, it's just going to push customers away. So I'm having a dificult time understanding the basis for this policy.
Personally, I think SU! is terrified of competition and this new policy projects an image that they are afraid their products are less than the best, too expensive or both. If SU! wants to keep loyalty and encourage growth, they need to ENCOURAGE ALL kinds of advertising on their demo's behalf and hey - maybe even lower prices! Hardly anyone is paying full price these days for anything let alone hobby supplies.
It will be real interesting to see how this pans out and what SU does to enforce it. I know they're probably depending on demos "ratting" each other out but I just think thats awful, too. What they need to do is to encourage their demos to build eachother UP and unite for SU! Not become divided over this (or any other) issue and almost encourage discord by ratting eachother out.
In addition to pitting demos against eachother, why does it appear that they're trying to eliminate Hobby demos? Now they've just pissed off the hobbyists and they've lost lots of that business all together.
I don't see how this is at all benifical to SU! I think they're scared about the competition and the growth of the papercrafting community and where they stand in between all of that. Because of that, I think EVERYONE affiliated with SU! will be affected. Even if you're a demo that completely agrees and will adhere to this policy, you may have many customers that don't agree and choose to go somewhere else for thier stamping stuff.
As for this being a part of the General forum and not limited to the demo side, I think that's completely unfair. Customers have a right to understand and discuss the opinions of the companies they buy from. SU! may be able to regulate their own demos but this is still America and we, THE GENERAL PUBLIC, can still talk about it regardless.
(Hopping off my soapbox now. Sorry it was so long. lol)
ETA: Earlier in this thread, someone compared this policy to the concept that if you were a Tupperware demo, you wouldn't push Rubbermaid products. Which is true...you wouldn't take a Rubbermaid product to show off at a Tupperware party. But in their own PERSONAL kitchen cabinet, how many Tupperware demos have at least one Rubbermaid (or other brand) item? And based on the SU! Policy, ANY Tupperware demo can't tell their sister to pick up a cute dress at Target because Target sells rubbermaid. Please, it's ridiculous.
Let's revisit this theory with Avon. Naturally, you wouldn't bring Maybeline or Covergirl products to an Avon show but I'm willing to bet that if you inspected ANY Avon rep's purse or make up bag, you'd find that classic pink & green tube of Maybeline mascara or the Covergirl classic powder compact. Not only that, but when the Avon rep walks into her local pharmacy and sees NYC nailpolish on sale for $1 and HEY - that color pink is so close to the "blushing bride" Avon nail polish. Do you think they actually BYPASS the NYC ON SALE nailpolish for Avon? You can bet your britches they DO NOT. You can also bet your britches that the Avon rep doesn't NOT tell their mother, who also buys Avon, not to pick up the Buy One Get One shampoo special at Walgreens because Walgreens sells products that "compete" with Avon. Again, it would be INSANE to think that.
ETA AGAIN: Please excuse all the misspellings and grammar mistakes. I've typed all of this in such a frenzy and rush taht I didn't bother to spell check or correct! I'm really not that bad! lol
__________________ Sophia I got a reality check but it bounced.
I think the line that explains it best to me is on the SU site where it says, "we welcome competition, we just don't expect it from our own demonstrators." No kidding.
You know, if I were unclear about anything in the new IDA, it wouldn't occur to me to leap to the conclusion that SU was turning into some demonic, despotic entity. I'd figure that there was a misunderstanding somewhere and look or wait for the explanation. I am a demo for Stampin' Up because I love the product and the company and I trust them.
I'm almost afraid to read the next posts, lol, for fear I'll hear that SU now has "death panels" lined up to review the ranks of low performing demos...
The recent struggles and declining numbers for SU can be as easily explained by a bad economy and internet competition as a whole and compare to most companies struggling in the current economy.
Sorry Belinda, but just because SU is limiting its demos link of the competition doesn't make the competition go away nor necessarily take away the competition's market. Whilst I agree that SU needed to tighten up what happens on SU blogs, I think they often forget to look at the impact of these decisions. This isn't the first time I have witness a big SU upset on this board. SU doesn't seem to think out the consequences and then issue clarification after clarification. Why not have a pow wow at the convention and discuss this so all the issue come up BEFORE anything is being forced in writing and have their elite demos ready on different sites and on their blogs ready to explain. Thats how many businesses work currently with regards to communications.
As I said earlier SU are perfectly in their rights to only award their demos that are 100% faithful to their product. However, in this day and age networking is becoming faster and faster and SU have put up hurdles mid-race.
SU has update a couple of the Q&A's on the site... Since they've been hashed and re-hashed here, I thought it appropriate to post them here.
So, because of the concerns raised by demos, SU will now allow links to sites that do not directly sell competitive product (e.g. challenge blogs, SCS, etc.). If a site does sell competitive product (e.g. PTI, GinaK, digital stamp creators' blogs, etc.), demos still may not link to that site.
Well that pretty much completely satisfies me. I think all the other stuff is fair. Might still be hard choices for people, but fair.
__________________ My BlogMy GalleryAll dog's feet smell like Fritos. I know you don't believe me, go check... See, I told you so.
ETA: Earlier in this thread, someone compared this policy to the concept that if you were a Tupperware demo, you wouldn't push Rubbermaid products. Which is true...you wouldn't take a Rubbermaid product to show off at a Tupperware party. But in their own PERSONAL kitchen cabinet, how many Tupperware demos have at least one Rubbermaid (or other brand) item? And based on the SU! Policy, ANY Tupperware demo can't tell their sister to pick up a cute dress at Target because Target sells rubbermaid. Please, it's ridiculous.
You're right, it is ridiculous. Which is why it isn't happening! Why are people so willing to believe such farfetched ideas??? In the above scenario, the only thing SU would prohibit would be the demo driving her sister to the Rubbermaid factory. SU doesn't care if demos use non-SU stuff. They just don't want demos hawking it when they are earning money to demo SU.
ETA: Earlier in this thread, someone compared this policy to the concept that if you were a Tupperware demo, you wouldn't push Rubbermaid products. Which is true...you wouldn't take a Rubbermaid product to show off at a Tupperware party. But in their own PERSONAL kitchen cabinet, how many Tupperware demos have at least one Rubbermaid (or other brand) item? And based on the SU! Policy, ANY Tupperware demo can't tell their sister to pick up a cute dress at Target because Target sells rubbermaid. Please, it's ridiculous.
You're right, it is ridiculous. Which is why it isn't happening! Why are people so willing to believe such farfetched ideas??? In the above scenario, the only thing SU would prohibit would be the demo driving her sister to the Rubbermaid factory. SU doesn't care if demos use non-SU stuff. They just don't want demos hawking it when they are earning money to demo SU.
It's my understanding that a SU! Demo cannot link to a website that features ANY NON SU! prodcut. That is a comparable situation to a Tupperware rep NOT telling her sister about the GORGEOUS dress at Target because Target also sells Rubbermaid. It's the same concept as far as I understand.
__________________ Sophia I got a reality check but it bounced.
Do you get the impression that the new clarification is a CHANGE or a CLARIFICATION? I'm not sure it really makes a difference, as the end result is the same, but I'm just curious.
__________________ My BlogMy GalleryAll dog's feet smell like Fritos. I know you don't believe me, go check... See, I told you so.
SU has update a couple of the Q&A's on the site... Since they've been hashed and re-hashed here, I thought it appropriate to post them here.
Quote:
Q: On my personal blog, I have links to my friends' personal blogs and web sites. Some of them sell competing product. Do I need to remove these links?
A: No and yes. On your web site, blog, or other online space, the policy is that you may not post links to competitive companies' web sites, or to locations where a customer could purchase competing products. As you evaluate the links that you provide, the only restrictions would be that the link should not a) direct to the company web site of a directly competing company (retail, online retail, or direct sales), or b) direct to the web site or blog of a representative for competitive products where the customer may purchase from directly. For example, if you link to a friend's site and customers can purchase products directly from your friend on that site, you need to remove the link to that site. If they cannot purchase products directly from your friend's site, you do not need to remove the link. Updated 9/2/09.
Q: I regularly participate in online forums relating to the craft industry, and maintain a gallery of my artwork on one of these forums. With the new IDA, is this activity still allowed?
A: Yes. Participating in forums and posting your projects for your fellow crafters can be an important method of inspiration and recognition. It's important to note that the new IDA does not prohibit this kind of activity. You may link to any blog or forum that highlights the crafting industry in general, regardless of the products highlighted or advertised. You may want to consider, however, where you are sending your customers, and the kinds of advertising they're likely to encounter when you make your decision on what kinds of links you recommend that your customers follow.
We are currently exploring ways to provide more of an open community and sharing environment, as well as opportunities for artistic recognition for our many talented demonstrators. We will keep you updated on any new developments. Updated 9/2/09.
So, because of the concerns raised by demos, SU will now allow links to sites that do not directly sell competitive product (e.g. challenge blogs, SCS, etc.). If a site does sell competitive product (e.g. PTI, GinaK, digital stamp creators' blogs, etc.), demos still may not link to that site.
Now, this sounds much more reasonable & understandable! I totally 'get' the whole SU demo & multi-DT conflict but I did not get the linking issue ~ which is apparently been addressed to a better compromise.
IMO, SU should have issued with a bit more lead time & with a open discussion attitude ~ a month notice ~ especially with the resulting backlash & revision ~ seems a bit... too quick...
Yes, it doesn't say we can't come to SCS or even post our cards on SCS. It just says we can't link to SCS from our blogs, emails, etc.
I think this will end up being a negative for them. I know I have combed the SU galleries looking for inspiration and have bought more SU stuff as a result. For customers, I think SCS is such a great place for inspiration, esp. for someone who might be new to stamping.
I still think the C-levels at SU need to re-read Orwell's 1984! I think being too restrictive and big-brotherish is going to cause them to lose business. In this economy, I do not think that is wise! I do not like being micro-managed. I get not using non-SU for a workshop, etc - totally w/i reason, but a personal blog....going a little far IMHO! No flames, please...
__________________ ~Tori Pink Cat Studio's Digi DT Member * GD Whiff of Joy Stamps - April/May 2010
Check out my Blog! - The Fishy-Scrapper's Chronicles
"A: No and yes. On your web site, blog, or other online space, the policy is that you may not post links to competitive companies' web sites, or to locations where a customer could purchase competing products. As you evaluate the links that you provide, the only restrictions would be that the link should not a) direct to the company web site of a directly competing company (retail, online retail, or direct sales), or b) direct to the web site or blog of a representative for competitive products where the customer may purchase from directly. For example, if you link to a friend's site and customers can purchase products directly from your friend on that site, you need to remove the link to that site. If they cannot purchase products directly from your friend's site, you do not need to remove the link. Updated 9/2/09."
To me this means you SU! demos cannot link to a online catty and shopping cart. That's where the sales take place. But you can link to a blog of a friend or fellow crafter that MAY be in competition?
__________________ StampinCarol
Southern AZ Stamper
My blog: stampincarol.blogspot.com
Are you seriously saying that SU "put up" with SCS because it was founded by an SU demo??
ummm, no. I am saying that SCS is moving further and further away from being a SU oriented community, now that it isn't owned by a SU demo and so this move is a natural move with that trend. SU did not put up with SCS, but they did let demonstrators push the line of their agreements and now it is time to re-evaluate.
VALERIE - I think you are pretty hard on SU- they want to make some clarifications and you even fault them for that, and of course, if they said nothing, you would fault them for that as well. People have been twisting a lot of what they said, taking things out of context, exaggerating things, etc - but you don't think they have a right to clarify?? When I read a lot of what is written on here, I am sorry, I can't think of it as anything BUT bashing.....(certainly not the majority of what is written, but plenty- I just read part of this thread where it said SU has their head up their butt, that in MY opinion is pretty close to BASHING) hmmmm.......does anyone think that's a constructive way to deal with the issues at hand?(and I don't even know WHO said it, because I'm not familiar with most of the people who are commenting here...honestly...I just know there is a way to play fair and this thread has crossed the line a few times in my opinion....)I am thankful for those that have expressed their concerns on both sides in a constructive manner - but wow, I think there's room for being careful, huh? Anyone agree?? I know I felt a little bad for how strong I came across yesterday, and tried to be more accepting of others opinions today, but saying SU has their head up their butt(and other such comments) goes a bit over the top for me, and will evoke our feelings of loyalty. There are those of us(and we are STRONG in number)who do love SU, like it or not.
A couple of my posts have been eaten today too, so I wanted to post this again for Holly, and thanks to those who have responded kindly to my posts.
Holly,
Yes SU has said that there will be some overlap where some demonstrators will appear to be out of compliance, when really they are working with SU's permission as they fulfill their contracts. SU is working with demonstrators on an individual basis. It seems like the only issues might be with people who have open ended contracts or agreements with no real end date. So I guess that would be where design teams will need to also be willing to work with demonstrators if those design team members wish to remain SU demonstrators. But yes, it is my understanding that they will be allowed to fulfill all of their commitments, just not for an indefinite period.
Thanks, Belinda. I am happy that you cleared that up. I feel better about the situations that effect me, now.
And to mloub... you gotta be kidding me. Ever heard the term: Two wrongs don't make a right?
I will definitely be using SU terms and such in my upload descriptions. There is a huge difference in saying 'brown cardstock' vs saying 'chocolate chip cardstock'. One being that the latter sounds so much more yummy :mrgreen: (haha.. just trying to lighten the mood)
Oh, and if anyone drops me from their facebook friends, I'll miss you, but I'll understand
This good but I still think you deoms Should be able posted things on your blogs. I go to scs and blogs for ideals....
I am handicapped hard to stamps mom has help me stamps.
And scs started a card kits thread for me. you must rak member....
But I love it! and changes my life. But, I have not but a lot Su stuffed.... and I can't find reg Deoms That like in my area.... I am wheelchair and houses issues and being happicard making hard found good deom I like and with new contract issues I thinking going hard on me to find demo.
Just me thoght from hotwheels:(
And to clarify that participation in places like SCS is okay - and decide that links to SCS will be allowed.
*Sigh.* Good for them. Good for demos and customers.
I agree that this will be a negative for SU!. Social Networking is proving to be the #1 marketing opportunity in the new century.
Even if they do allow certain links they will have a large percentage of confused demos out there who are afraid of accidentally stepping over the line so they don't even go and explore or link, even if it is OK. THey are missing creative opportunities. Likewise, if SU brings in a new product to them, one which is popular in the marketplace already and their demos don't know how to use it or have seen how useful it is then they can't promote it as effectively.
As living, breathing humans we have the right to freedoms. The greatest one we exercise tends to be where we open our wallets. I can understand how a dedicated demo is trying to preserve their piece of the pie, they are missing people who might otherwise have been exposed.
Sure SU is losing business. They were one of the first and biggest and they do a fabulous job of introducing newbies into the stamping world. Then those newbies want to take their work a step further and they HAVE to look beyond SU. A good company looks for ways of retaining the basic purchases or even seasoned vets won't come back to spend more money.
Is it unreasonable of SU? From their perspective, No. I know a lot of companies who try to curb their designers to use exclusive products. That is their choice. From a creative person's perspective it is totally unreasonable and smacks of a dictatorship. As a designer I would shy away from using that company's products.
However, when all is said and done, it's a CHOICE. Not just for SU but for everyone out there. In the end, the wallet will win out.
Wow...what a pickle everyone is in...I keep thinking this economy can't get any worse and then something like this reminds me how awful it truly is. I can see the point of a no competing clause in a contract...I have worked in retail almost my whole life in one way or another and there have always been clauses like that. Was SU losing sales to other companies? I can't imagine they were losing that many sales...that were tracable or tracked over a period of time. Then again maybe this is not the thinking behind the decision or maybe it was.
I have always used this craft to help others when I can...if it meant posting a link on a blog, "tweet"ing a project the uses supplies from multiple companies or give an honest recommendation to buy something from another company (for whatever reason)...I guess I just don't see what the harm is in that. I believe you get back what you give ten-fold.
Sidenote...I thank God I did not re-sign with SU! years ago...I was spending way too much money on things I could really get down the street...so much so it almost broke up my marriage.
So to all those who are thinking they may not resign with SU! and are torn between their decisions...I am here to say there is life after SU!...really there is. There are still things SU! offers that I look at and dream of owning, I still take inspiration from all of the talented SU! demos that display their work here...but I don't have to work in the rigid confines of a company telling me what I can and can't do. I believe I became more creative after SU!
Besides didn't this happen last year on a different level when they started selling vinyl wall clingy-things (is that the technical name for them?)...a majority of demo I think left then as well...am I seeing a cycle here?
Now, this sounds much more reasonable & understandable! I totally 'get' the whole SU demo & multi-DT conflict but I did not get the linking issue ~ which is apparently been addressed to a better compromise.
IMO, SU should have issued with a bit more lead time & with a open discussion attitude ~ a month notice ~ especially with the resulting backlash & revision ~ seems a bit... too quick...
OK, this statement kind of blows my mind. Because it is absolutely right, and totally not SU's fault! The only reason that this is being discussed here is that SU demo's went off the deep end and involved the uninformed public in a conversation that should have remained among demonstrators and SU for yes, you are right, a month or so. Till all of the kinks were worked out and everyone had accurate information and had allowed feedback time for demonstrators. This is exactly how SU usually deals with things, they listen to us and adjust things for our benefit.
But here we are with our dirty undies laying on the front lawn for the neighbors to comment on the size, style and tacky trim, because someone dumped the laundry basket on the way to the laundromat.
Thank you for shining the light in this direction.
I'm almost afraid to read the next posts, lol, for fear I'll hear that SU now has "death panels" lined up to review the ranks of low performing demos...
I think this is totally hilarious...I think I about fell off my chair. Thank you for the afternoon giggle-I needed it...
This is just an inaccurate assessment of the situation. Well meaning, I am sure, but still inaccurate. SCS was started by a SU demo for her customers and downline, so in essence it could be interpreted as the other way around. It grew early on as many other demonstrators and their customers participated here. To imply that SU has grown by leaps and bounds since the inception of SCS is also inaccurate. Until the last couple of years, the top performers in sales and recruiting have not even been active on these type of sites. In the last couple of years a few demonstrators have clearly benefited from SCS, but not SU as a whole. The recent struggles and declining numbers for SU can be as easily explained by a bad economy and internet competition as a whole and compare to most companies struggling in the current economy. They have made several business moves to tighten their belts, and secure their business model for the future, this is just one component that ultimately impacts a relatively small number of demonstrators. However, given the number of demonstrators with blogs, if they don't make some guidelines now, who knows how many it would impact down the road. There is still a large portion of SU customers who don't participate on the internet, which would be about 90% of mine. I think most people can look at this move and use some sound judgement to see the business reasoning behind it. Especially once we can weed out the facts from the comments that are just wild assumptions.
I stand behind my statement that SU would not be where it is today without SCS.
Do you get the impression that the new clarification is a CHANGE or a CLARIFICATION? I'm not sure it really makes a difference, as the end result is the same, but I'm just curious.
Hey Erin. I see it as definitely two changes:
They no longer are saying not to link sites that "promote" products from other companies, but ones which provide a means to "purchase" products from other companies. Big difference.
Also, they reiterate that demos can participate in sites like SCS but now say that they may link sites like SCS but might want to think twice about exposing their customers to other advertisement.
OK, this statement kind of blows my mind. Because it is absolutely right, and totally not SU's fault! The only reason that this is being discussed here is that SU demo's went off the deep end and involved the uninformed public in a conversation that should have remained among demonstrators and SU for yes, you are right, a month or so. Till all of the kinks were worked out and everyone had accurate information and had allowed feedback time for demonstrators. This is exactly how SU usually deals with things, they listen to us and adjust things for our benefit.
But here we are with our dirty undies laying on the front lawn for the neighbors to comment on the size, style and tacky trim, because someone dumped the laundry basket on the way to the laundromat.
Thank you for shining the light in this direction.
last post, I mean it!
Belinda
This type of attitude among SU demos (and encouraged by SU higher ups) is exactly why I dropped my demoship years ago. I see it hasn't changed. :(
OK, this statement kind of blows my mind. Because it is absolutely right, and totally not SU's fault! The only reason that this is being discussed here is that SU demo's went off the deep end and involved the uninformed public in a conversation that should have remained among demonstrators and SU for yes, you are right, a month or so. Till all of the kinks were worked out and everyone had accurate information and had allowed feedback time for demonstrators. This is exactly how SU usually deals with things, they listen to us and adjust things for our benefit.
But here we are with our dirty undies laying on the front lawn for the neighbors to comment on the size, style and tacky trim, because someone dumped the laundry basket on the way to the laundromat.
Thank you for shining the light in this direction.
last post, I mean it!
Belinda
Maybe SU needs to think these sorts of things through better. They don't operate in a vacuum and can't muzzle everyone.
They had a great opportunity at the convention to present this to a large number of demos for feedback. Or maybe they need an advisory board of everyday demos who can provide that perspective.
It just surprises me that a company of SU's caliber doesn't handle these things better than they do. I'm sure their legal eagles and marketing pros, etc., gave it the once over. But they don't have the same perspective.
I'm glad they made the changes that they did to the new IDA, and maybe in the future big changes will be handled differently.
And I don't regret for one minute that this information was made available to the "general public" ... well, the "stamping public" anyway.
I hope people who viewed this forum caught the post by the other Belinda about the reasonable changes SU made to their new policy.
Sorry Belinda, but just because SU is limiting its demos link of the competition doesn't make the competition go away nor necessarily take away the competition's market. Whilst I agree that SU needed to tighten up what happens on SU blogs, I think they often forget to look at the impact of these decisions. This isn't the first time I have witness a big SU upset on this board. SU doesn't seem to think out the consequences and then issue clarification after clarification. Why not have a pow wow at the convention and discuss this so all the issue come up BEFORE anything is being forced in writing and have their elite demos ready on different sites and on their blogs ready to explain. Thats how many businesses work currently with regards to communications.
As I said earlier SU are perfectly in their rights to only award their demos that are 100% faithful to their product. However, in this day and age networking is becoming faster and faster and SU have put up hurdles mid-race.
OK, I lied.
I wasn't saying that this policy is going to make the competition go away and quite frankly I don't believe for a moment that SU believes that either. They are simply addressing a situation that has gotten out of hand and needs to be addressed, just as the manager of a department store would if he saw his sales associates telling customers that they can get some really cute jeans down the mall. Really it is a simple concept.
The funny part of your comment is that anyone who has been around SU knows that this craziness has gone on long before SCS. Every change SU has ever made has had a small number of demonstrators thrown into a frenzy of end of the world scenarios. Every change for as long as I can remember, they just used to hash it out on demonstrator only lists before SCS evolved. The ironic part of all this is that the demonstrators who are really affected by this are generally suffering in silence trying to make a real decision.
Just you all know called SU and told deom or coustmers what saying that deoms I think some Deoms attitude they care coustmers, has well should so I think heard coustmers to good deoms but not all deoms are like that? That why has coustmers and scs mebmer I wanted help you all in anyway I can!!!!!!!
hotwheeels
Maybe SU needs to think these sorts of things through better. They don't operate in a vacuum and can't muzzle everyone.
They had a great opportunity at the convention to present this to a large number of demos for feedback. Or maybe they need an advisory board of everyday demos who can provide that perspective.
It just surprises me that a company of SU's caliber doesn't handle these things better than they do. I'm sure their legal eagles and marketing pros, etc., gave it the once over. But they don't have the same perspective.
I'm glad they made the changes that they did to the new IDA, and maybe in the future big changes will be handled differently.
And I don't regret for one minute that this information was made available to the "general public" ... well, the "stamping public" anyway.
I hope people who viewed this forum caught the post by the other Belinda about the reasonable changes SU made to their new policy.
They do have an advisory board, and they do listen to feedback from demonstrators and make changes according to their input. It is obvious that if they released this info to 6, 30 or 30, 000 at one time for input that it would be immediately out on the boards for discussion and this exact same situation would occur. This is the process. They use the advisory board, send it to the lawyers and other higher ups and then release a decision to demonstrators. Man the phones waiting for input and comments, evaluate and make changes. The key part is evaluate and make changes, not too many other companies do that for their reps. Most just say here it is, deal with it. The fact that changes were made in a 24 hour period, they are still wrong. I don't get it.
hhhmmmmm I was thinking about signing up as a demo, I wont be now. I have had many $800.00 + BOOK parties and really have been told I should demo. I was just talking about it with my demo 2 days ago. There is no way I can promise, I wont tell someone to buy the black ink pad when there are better ones out there or that a certain brand of color pencils at dick blick are better. I love the punches, stamps, paper, color ink pads. But there is no way I wont say hey run down to walmart on university cuz they have blah blah on clearance for $%^$. so it is a no go for me I have gotten the look from my demo at stamping night for talking about other products she has even shushed me it makes me laugh
I see what you're saying. And I guess that's just the way it is. I suppose the advisory board can't predict everything. Do you think it would make a difference if they said up front that, for example, these changes to the IDA are being presented to you for feedback, will be evaluated, and changes may be necessary? Or is that too wimpy? Obviously a lot of demos don't assume it's up for negotiation. It looked like it came down as an edict and that was that.
It all has just run its natural course, and I don't think it's bad that people talked about it here. We can agree to disagree about that.
(P.S. Many times in other threads I've told myself that I'm not posting again, but I usually do ... even though I probably delete more than I ever post. I'm really glad you kept writing though.)
I see what you're saying. And I guess that's just the way it is. I suppose the advisory board can't predict everything. Do you think it would make a difference if they said up front that, for example, these changes to the IDA are being presented to you for feedback, will be evaluated, and changes may be necessary? Or is that too wimpy? Obviously a lot of demos don't assume it's up for negotiation. It looked like it came down as an edict and that was that.
It all has just run its natural course, and I don't think it's bad that people talked about it here. We can agree to disagree about that.
(P.S. Many times in other threads I've told myself that I'm not posting again, but I usually do ... even though I probably delete more than I ever post. I'm really glad you kept writing though.)
I'm wondering as well if their advisory board is too much the same. I know I once was part of a team giving advice at a hospital it was made up of all levels and backgrounds so that they could see anything that needed to be addressed before they set things out.
I too think that many of the SU demos would have been happier to have had information presented to them in a more informed manner than this is your new contract sign it or don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I also think that if SU adopted a consultation process in their term changes they would see less "information leakage" as everything being discussed would only be proposals on the table.
There was some bashing on this thread however, I think the majority of posts were from people that just wanted to clarify the situation and the ramification of the changes.
Okay can someone answer dumb question, if Deoms can't but things on there blogs? where is next better hung out place for ideals other than scs? and that is safe. I come becuse it safe here I feel safe here. And blog on scs For ideals but safe comeforetable.....:confused: So what am I do now? And where go beside scs. if not blogs from scs poeple meaning Deoms and everyone?
I was an occasional SU customer for years and happen to find SCS through a customer of an SU demo. SCS totally changed my life. I saw such amazing talent. SCS inspired me. I got hooked on stamping all over again. And as I result purchased more SU products. Eventually, I signed up as a demo (hobby only). Through SCS I discovered such great companies as Gina K, Unity, MFT, and Flourishes among others. I also discovered the CB, Nesties, Dew Drops, Stickles and Copics along with tons of other �had to have� goodies. Thanks to SCS I also discovered amazing tutorials, great forums, tips and tricks I never would have discovered otherwise.
Eventually I started my own personal blog. My blog. Not an SU DBWS � a personal blog. I do not mention on my blog that I am an SU demo And my blog includes creations made with the products of my choice. I do take issue with SU trying to control what I post and how I post on my blog. My blog is mine and this type of control really bothers me. If they were imposing these restriction on an SU Demo Web Site that would be fine, but on a personal blog is a different story.
Gina K has a tutorial on her blog about extending the SU Word Window punch. Gina K also sells a competing product. (Products I happen to think are wonderful!) I have linked to her tutorial more than once because it shows my readers another wonderful way to use the SU punch. But I can�t do that anymore. And that upsets me � Just because someone is the competition does not mean that they are the bad guys. Sometimes competitors use your product and come up with new and better ways to use the product to make it even more appealing.
On the other side of this same issue. I was recently in one of my local �big box� stores. A customer was talking to the cashier about embossing � I wasn�t really paying attention to the conversation, but couldn�t help overhearing it. The customer was talking about speckles when she embossed. The big box cashier told the customer about SU�s embossing buddy. She admitted that she didn�t know what it was called, and admitted their store did not carry this neat tool, but that Stampin Up did. The cashier even told this customer how to find a local demo on the SU website. I think it is wonderful that this cashier honestly admitted that her store could not provide what the customer needed and offered a solution to this customer�s problem.
Point being � sometimes we just have to acknowledge that the competition is going to send us business and sometimes they are going to get some of our business. It�s all about sharing our love of this addiction.
With SU!�s new requirements and restrictions, I will be rethinking my relationship with SU. I became a hobby demo mostly for the discount and with the possibility of taking it to the next level down the road. Now I am not so sure I want to limit myself to one company when there are so many great companies and products out there that enhance and compliment one other so beautifully.
Just you all know called SU and told deom or coustmers what saying that deoms I think some Deoms attitude they care coustmers, has well should so I think heard coustmers to good deoms but not all deoms are like that? That why has coustmers and scs mebmer I wanted help you all in anyway I can!!!!!!!
hotwheeels
Thanks Hotwheels for your contribution to this thread. I understand that you care about what is happending with SU and the demo's. It's great that you are doing what you can to help out with things. It's appreciated! You make beautiful cards, and I know SCS has helped you - and we love having you here on SCS!!! If you have stuff from SU you can still upload it here. That's okay!! If you have any questions just PM me and I will try to help. I am not an SU demo, but I do think that these new regulations are much too strict to, and I am sorry that SU has - I think - so many poor business decisions. For me in Canada - one punch costs 22.95 now.
I feel sad for my demo and I have talked to her today. She is still going to be a demo but she to thinks this is very hardline of SU and she is not pleased.
I went to the site and saw that change...boy, they could have promoted that one better!
Now, if they would just do "online virtual parties" how great would that be?
Did you happen to know when that started, several years ago and there was a lot of promotion going on about it. Infact, they did several a big customer special that were to encourage customers to order online instead of through their demo.
I take it you are not a demo, sounds like you demo could have been a little more informative because they really did do a lot to promote it.
Are you seriously saying that SU "put up" with SCS because it was founded by an SU demo??
Actaully Many Demo Support people at SU do NOT like SCS. Demos talk and They do not like that.
Example - When a demo gets a possible defective item - other demos will encourage her to call DS for a replacement -
EXAMPLE - when our Real Red pads started going bad we talked on SCS and everyone was calling about the defect and the did not like that we knew many other demos and customer swere having the same issues
I see what you're saying. And I guess that's just the way it is. I suppose the advisory board can't predict everything. Do you think it would make a difference if they said up front that, for example, these changes to the IDA are being presented to you for feedback, will be evaluated, and changes may be necessary? Or is that too wimpy? Obviously a lot of demos don't assume it's up for negotiation. It looked like it came down as an edict and that was that.
It all has just run its natural course, and I don't think it's bad that people talked about it here. We can agree to disagree about that.
(P.S. Many times in other threads I've told myself that I'm not posting again, but I usually do ... even though I probably delete more than I ever post. I'm really glad you kept writing though.)
Thanks Nancy for really trying to have a real discourse about it. I actually thanked you in an earlier post that disappeared. I wanted to let you know that.
You are right, there is nothing wrong with discussing it in open forum, but if it had waited a day or two or a week, then we would be having a whole different discussion, but there would still be upset folks, because as a species we just don't handle change that well! But with a few of the kinks worked out, it mightn't have been such a wild ride! lol
OK, really I'll shut up now! This is why I stay away for so long, I just can't stop. It is an affliction!
Actaully Many Demo Support people at SU do NOT like SCS. Demos talk and They do not like that.
Example - When a demo gets a possible defective item - other demos will encourage her to call DS for a replacement -
EXAMPLE - when our Real Red pads started going bad we talked on SCS and everyone was calling about the defect and the did not like that we knew many other demos and customer swere having the same issues
We is worng giveing that advice I that dumb SU part? in example I mean! hotwheels
What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander!
