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Old 10-27-2011, 03:04 PM   #681
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Well guess what?! He finally moved out on Sunday... I won't say willingly but deep down he knew it was time... he's had his apt since Oct 1st and kept putting it off because he wasn't "emotionally" ready. When would one be emotionally ready to leave his four kids?! Today (meaning last weekend) probably is not any easier than six months ago or two months from now. The only difference, I told him, was that three of our kids have birthdays this week, and six months ago I told him I didn't want it to come down to leaving around their birthdays because that would stick with them for the rest of their lives. And here we were, a week from the bdays, and I added that next weekend was right in the middle of these, and the weekend after was too far away. I'm being selfish now and not waiting another two weeks for him to leave. Then I reminded him that I was taking the keys back from him too, which he didn't think I was serious about. He could call first to make arrangements for the rest of his stuff. So of course he threw the keys at me while speaking a few choice words.

But that's okay, you can't, or maybe you can, imagine the relief and huge wait off of my shoulders on Monday! *sigh* I had a brief meltdown/panic attack Sunday night but am doing much better so far. I know there will be ups and downs but for now, it's okay!
Oh Laurie! That's a big step and I'm so glad to hear the relief in your voice. I think there's a terrible selfishness in wanting to have it both ways, as he clearly has tried to do. I hope this is the beginning of your being able to get on with your OWN life. For all that it has its ups and downs, I think you're so right about the relief.

ALL the best to you, and hang in there.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:12 PM   #682
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Thank you, ladies!

Now the kids want me to see the apt but of course he doesn't want me there but it doesn't really matter to me. I can see his point of me not being in "his" space but I can also see the kids' (and my) point to see where they will be spending so much time... and so I "get" what they are talking about. But I'll let them hash it out. He told the youngest (turned 6 today) that I won't be going there and that's just the way divorce is but ds1 (turning 14 on Monday) says it's ridiculous that I'm not allowed to just stop in and visit (that's my boy...sticking up for me)!

PS...still no tears since the panic on Sunday night; just a little weapy at my therapist appt yesterday, but still doing good!
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:13 AM   #683
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Laurie! WOW!!! The relief is there. the fear is there ...and the confidence is there to go forward. Good for you! And I totally understand your point for NOT going to the apartment....the kids will tell you all about it and then you can be set at ease or put on alert...depending on what they say..I know when my kids first went to the x's new house..(he was living with now present wife) they were apprehensive about it all they told me stories, I called him on them and then realized that the kids were telling me things so that I would call and make a ruckus....my kids just do not want to go to teh x's house...it is a constant fight and he rarely sees them (due to "work") Hang in there...this will most likely be the longest roller coaster ever.....I hope the transition goes better for you than it did for me!
I too LOVED the freedom of not having him around......

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Old 10-29-2011, 10:24 AM   #684
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I love the freedom of not having him around me....ever again.
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Old 10-29-2011, 12:00 PM   #685
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I love the freedom of not having him around me....ever again.
I'd like to think this but since our youngest just turned 6yo, I'm guessing that won't be happening here for a while.

He took them to spend the night with him at the apt, while his sister (roommate) is out of town. Of course I cried, then cleaned, then cried while cleaning, you all know the drill. In a couple hours my family is coming over to celebrate birthdays of three of the kids so at least the cleaning kept me busy. He's not coming to the party, obviously would be uncomfortable, and his parents did not plan on coming either, even though I invited them for the kids. (They couldn't even rsvp "no" but I didn't expect any differently.)

I'm just remembering that I did nothing wrong...he's the one that cheated.
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Old 10-29-2011, 12:28 PM   #686
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I'd like to think this but since our youngest just turned 6yo, I'm guessing that won't be happening here for a while.

He took them to spend the night with him at the apt, while his sister (roommate) is out of town. Of course I cried, then cleaned, then cried while cleaning, you all know the drill. In a couple hours my family is coming over to celebrate birthdays of three of the kids so at least the cleaning kept me busy. He's not coming to the party, obviously would be uncomfortable, and his parents did not plan on coming either, even though I invited them for the kids. (They couldn't even rsvp "no" but I didn't expect any differently.

I'm just remembering that I did nothing wrong...he's the one that cheated.
You should not feel awful. It is so unfair. He created this situation. You are dealing with it beautifully. Keep remembering that
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Old 10-30-2011, 07:50 AM   #687
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I'd like to think this but since our youngest just turned 6yo, I'm guessing that won't be happening here for a while.

He took them to spend the night with him at the apt, while his sister (roommate) is out of town. Of course I cried, then cleaned, then cried while cleaning, you all know the drill. In a couple hours my family is coming over to celebrate birthdays of three of the kids so at least the cleaning kept me busy. He's not coming to the party, obviously would be uncomfortable, and his parents did not plan on coming either, even though I invited them for the kids. (They couldn't even rsvp "no" but I didn't expect any differently.)

I'm just remembering that I did nothing wrong...he's the one that cheated.
I very strongly believe that as time goes on, we do reap the sum of our actions and choices for good or for ill. My Dad used to put it more cleverly: he turned the old cliche about 'time heals all wounds' inside out to me one day when I was heartbroken over a guy and said 'time wounds all heels.'

The older I've gotten, the more I've seen that my Dad was right about that. People who can hold themselves accountable for their actions, and try to live that balance between setting healthy boundaries, being honest to themselves and others, but still have that respect for others' feelings and desire to cause no harm, seem to achieve far more peace in life as time goes on, and seem to become more open to giving and receiving love. The other thing a therapist said to me once that really helped me is that it's really important to think about our own behavior ESPECIALLY in those situations where we feel truly wronged and harmed by someone else. Even if they bear 99% of the responsibility for a situation and we ourselves bear only 1%, and at that if only by choosing them, then by taking responsibility for our own part, we have the chance to learn and grow instead of feeling embittered or enraged.

I think my Dad and the therapist have it right. It's hard to let go, and to realize the only person whose behavior we can change is our own. But in doing that, we have the chance to keep learning and to work on the one thing we truly do have control over. That's ourselves: our attitudes and actions.

I read a great book this summer: http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Broken-...9989385&sr=1-1. Piven talks a lot about feeling what you feel when you need to and then releasing it, and trying to live with more of a focus on the moment. That helped a lot. When I'd get upset from time to time afterwards I'd just flip to a random page and read a bit. It's funny because in a way it reminded me of our dog Molly (didn't adopt our second dog till the end of August). Molly was so forlorn after STBX moved out, but after a few days she bounced back into her happy-dogness. Don't know if you've seen that joke on the internet about 'the dog's schedule,' but the gist of it is 7AM, oh boy!!! Breakfast!!! MY FAVORITE!!! 8AM, oh boy!!! Walk with Mom!!!! MY FAVORITE!!!! 10AM, Ride in car!!!! MY FAVORITE!!! and so on through the day. Piven kind of put into words what it was about Molly that just seemed so encouraging: she just threw herself into every moment with so much joy, and so much immersion into it.

I'm not sure if it's scary or cool to get to the point where you learn that much from a cocker spaniel, but these days my feeling is, hey, if it works, learn it and be thankful, LOL!

Hang in there, Laurie. I hope the kids have a GREAT party today and that oh BOY!!!! It's your FAVORITE!!!! and theirs too!!!
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:08 AM   #688
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Jane, you have a beautiful way with words and are so insightful. Thank you for the lovely post. I will look into the book you mention. It sounds excellent.
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:57 PM   #689
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How is Halloween going for all of your kiddo's?
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Old 10-31-2011, 05:07 PM   #690
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For the first time in 8 years, kids rang our doorbell. Since no one comes here, we don't buy candy.
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:04 PM   #691
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I am in a condo unit with outside doors, no one came either! I guess that is ok...somehow it does make me sad...
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Old 10-31-2011, 08:28 PM   #692
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I ended up taking the kids to my Mom's neighborhood, where I grew up. Houses are a little closer together than here. Kids loved it... same amount of time outside but twice almost 3x as many houses. Two of my brothers stopped with their kids too. It's also my oldest's birthday so we had cake and sang to him.

Then of course we had to stop at Dad's on the way home...I didn't want to of course but the kids wanted to see him with their costumes on and it was on the way, but I limited it to 5 minutes because it was fast approaching bedtime. I stayed in the car... too angry to go in. He'll be stopping over tomorrow again anyway, if he gets out of work early enough, since it's our dd's bday. (Did I mention we have 3 birthdays within 5 days of each other?! )
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:02 AM   #693
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Then of course we had to stop at Dad's on the way home...I didn't want to of course but the kids wanted to see him with their costumes on and it was on the way, but I limited it to 5 minutes because it was fast approaching bedtime. I stayed in the car... too angry to go in. He'll be stopping over tomorrow again anyway, if he gets out of work early enough, since it's our dd's bday. (Did I mention we have 3 birthdays within 5 days of each other?! )
wow what a lot of birthdays.
Hope you all had a good time.
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Old 11-02-2011, 01:03 PM   #694
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You are really in the thick of things, as far as the emotional encounters. Recognize this and give yourself time away from it....
Take care!
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:56 AM   #695
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*sigh* Sad days again.

He wants to take the kids for the whole weekend, which is fine because he'd be picking up dd from her play date and taking the boys to their haircuts...which were scheduled before he considered the visitation. My problem is that he's going through the 14yo and not making the plans with me... the guardian.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:57 AM   #696
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Ugh, no sooner do I get that typed, then he calls about something else, and oh, yeah, about the weekend. Well if dd has a playdate and the boys have haircuts, maybe he should just wait and take them Sat night instead!!! Let the games begin!!! Guess it's time to get the calendar out and make a months worth of plans ahead of time.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:35 AM   #697
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Laurie...just from my own personal experience....once the games begin...they will continue UNLESS you have it enforced....your situation is so much like mine. I am sorry you are going through all this..6 years later the kids dad sees them MAYBE once a month and not even 24 hours because of "work"...not sure if he really is working or not...the kids just do not fit into his life anymore....and the x used to go through the oldest as well...I told the oldest that the x has to make the plans with me....and so that soon changed...hang in there girl! Taishea
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Old 11-03-2011, 12:18 PM   #698
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He will continue to do this if you allow it. I know it's hard, but only you can put a stop to it. Keeping you all in my prayers.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:47 PM   #699
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Believe me, it's not gonna continue. I just printed out a calendar so we can plan out November. I'm a planner and he's a wait and see guy so that is so not gonna work. He's supposed to take them Thanksgiving weekend to his parents farm (2 1/2 hrs away) but he's not a celebration/food person and it's at his older sister's and "she's always crabby" so he doesn't want to go for that... can you picture it that he blames me for his not being able to "bring the kids for Thanksgiving" so has to go there Thursday night instead?! I said he can have them after school Wed but I want them back Sunday for my bday. Any predictions?!
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:54 PM   #700
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Believe me, it's not gonna continue. I just printed out a calendar so we can plan out November. I'm a planner and he's a wait and see guy so that is so not gonna work. He's supposed to take them Thanksgiving weekend to his parents farm (2 1/2 hrs away) but he's not a celebration/food person and it's at his older sister's and "she's always crabby" so he doesn't want to go for that... can you picture it that he blames me for his not being able to "bring the kids for Thanksgiving" so has to go there Thursday night instead?! I said he can have them after school Wed but I want them back Sunday for my bday. Any predictions?!
Haaaaaaaaaaaa.... calling his bluff, good for you. It's funny how they blame us (which makes it look like we are all powerful), then on the other hand.. they try to control us... lol
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:53 AM   #701
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Haaaaaaaaaaaa.... calling his bluff, good for you. It's funny how they blame us (which makes it look like we are all powerful), then on the other hand.. they try to control us... lol
Couldn't agree more on calling his bluff.

One thing that I've found helps in dealing with difficult people is accepting that they're going to play games/blame you/whatever and just doing what you need to do and using the broken record technique: for example 'oh, I thought that we had agreed to X, I don't remember a conversation where we changed those plans. Do you not want to pick the kids up on X?' repeat as needed. Someone difficult will still try the manipulation/blame etc but at least this way you stay focused on the issues.

What uber sucks is that the parent who behaves the best pays the highest price to keep things on an even keel in the day-to-day short term. What doesn't suck is that the example a parent sets by being able to do this, to behave lovingly towards the kids and put them first, even when it's excruciatingly difficult, essentially makes it inevitable that the parent who's incapable of doing just that for the kid will get caught with his butt hanging out in the breeze. It's one of those things that you can't talk about, you just have to live it. And in the end, the kids DO see who's talking the talk and who's actually walking the walk.

They don't always see it in the short term when someone manipulates and uses words to twist things, but there's only so long that anyone can spin reality before it becomes apparent that their words and reality don't line up AT ALL and haven't for quite some time. And in a sense, the only way to let that happen is to do the right thing consistently and place that trust in time and the cumulative effect of someone's choices and actions.

That's tough not just on a parent who really chooses and commits to doing the right thing and being there for the kids. It's tough on the kids, too, because they WANT to love and respect their parents, and they tend to blame themselves when things don't work out--if I were a better/smarter/cuter/whatever kind of kid, Dad would have stayed. And that gets taken out on the parent who's stable and there for them too sometimes (and I say that with memories of stuff I did at 10 or 12 that I desperately wish I'd been able to do differently). So it sucks because the person who can find the maturity, perspective and compassion to try and be understanding, fair and also FIRM with folks who don't behave well gets stuck holding that bag on their own for a good long while.

The only thing I can say is that this is where having friends and love or family or even a chat thread where you have folks who will be there for YOU makes all the difference in the world. So does giving yourself time for any and all things that give you the strength to keep going. I think it's totally OK to be a little selfish now and then about those things because if you're the one who has to stay strong, you do need that down time and nourishment. Hang in there and good luck. That new reality of dealing with someone on that basis sucks and there's just no way around that.
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:58 AM   #702
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Ack I probably just set a new record for using the word 'sucks' in a single post but it just makes me ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS that ANY parent would bounce their kids around like that. Good grief. If you're going to be a selfish @ss hat or whatever or be a complete and total digestive by product to your spouse, that's bad enough. But at LEAST have the humanity to be there for your kids.

WHAT a massively selfish IDIOT.

Sigh. /rant.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:59 AM   #703
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It seems it was all me assuming he'd be taking the kids to the farm for Thanksgiving...any time he "thinks" something then I automatically assume it's the way it's going to be. Well excuse me for being the planner and forgetting that he's the "whatever/we'll see" person. So now he wants to know if I want to take the kids to my brother's for T'giving. Well of course I'd love to and they'd have fun with their cousins. But I'm not giving up Christmas (every other year his two brothers come from out of state and this is an off year, so figured I'd take the kids this year and keep it on cycle). So do I make him take the kids for the weekend even though he's not going to be with his family? Is this another game of his to guilt me into Christmas? I already told my family we'd have Christmas here because I should have the kids and don't think we've ever had the whole group here for this holiday. *sigh* This is just a bad thinking week, especially after another tearful conversation yesterday again. Better call my friend to go out tonight so I don't just sit here.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:31 AM   #704
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Oh Laurie,
I repeat what Jane said----
What a massively selfish idiot!

You want what is best for your children. You are a wonderful Mom. You deserve tonight with a friend to let the steam off.
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Old 11-05-2011, 11:09 AM   #705
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Laurie..you are a great parent..sad, but I often get stuck (so to speak) when the x decides he needs to have different arrangements...however like Jane said ( and I have yet to experience it BUT trusting fully it will come full circle) is the kids will eventually see and know who did right by them (the kids). We keep the kids so that there is nothing abnormal for them...they like it here with us and so they stay no questions asked...Hang in there...do what is best for the kids and things will work out and also I learned to stop assuming...it only got me in trouble! Taishea
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:35 PM   #706
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Months ago I mentioned getting the webcam running again, used to use it for his parents and then we stopped for some reason. Anyway, said the girls would probably rather say good night "in person" rather than just on the phone. Oh no, that wasn't necessary. So now he talks with his mom last night about how hard it is to say good night on the phone every night. She says why not get the webcam going again. He says, oh what a great idea! UGH I could just scream, had to bite my tongue not to say anything.

And yesterday the kids and I were working on the leaves before the snow starts up. Ds1 says why isn't dad here helping? Isn't that what he said he'd help with the day you guys told us about the divorce? Why yes, son, he did, but he's not here.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:11 AM   #707
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"good 'Ol Dad!


He will continue to show his true colors...kids will not be further impressed!

KUDOS to you Laurie for holding your tongue! Have a great day! (there will come a time when you can let him have it btw)!Taishea
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:30 AM   #708
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How is life treating us ladies?...this weekend is starting out as a challenge...but hopefully it will settle down soon and be a very enjoyable one! Have a wo nderful day and please do not forget about our vets...Taishea
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:43 AM   #709
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We are starting the quest to purchase a house. This could take days, weeks, months. We are pre-qualified (now a requirement).

Enjoy your weekend ladies. Praying your challenges are light, and your joy is over-flowing.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:01 AM   #710
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Stick to your guns Laurie, make him make plans and keep to them.

My ex just offered the kids 50 each for Xmas if they speak to his girlfriend.
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:14 PM   #711
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Stick to your guns Laurie, make him make plans and keep to them.

My ex just offered the kids 50 each for Xmas if they speak to his girlfriend.
Bribery?! You're kidding, right? So low... wonder how the gf feels about that?!

Mine at least knows to keep the gf away for now, based on comments/worries from the oldest, but who knows how long that will last. He says he can't believe I'd think he'd want to hurt his kids...hello?! You did it once already!
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:13 AM   #712
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Stick to your guns Laurie, make him make plans and keep to them.

My ex just offered the kids 50 each for Xmas if they speak to his girlfriend.
Now that's a classy approach!

Uh, yeah, wonder how that will work out for him. And how kind to put the kids in the middle. Jeepers.

I had a rough week. Found out Monday that my 17yo cat, sweet old fellow, is sick. Not surprising at his age. Could be one of several things but all can be treated with cortisone shots so with vet's blessing I'm going to skip the tests, biopsies, invasive treatment for whichever condition it is and just keep him comfortable and happy for as long as possible. Last week my Mom, who's 82, fell and fractured her pelvis. Just a lot of feelings of things irrevocably changing that I'd always taken for granted. On weds I broke down and cried for about 4 hours.

On the bright side at least no one is trying to manipulate my kids (which would be hard since the closest i've gotten are cats and dogs...).

Seriously, hugs to all of you.

It never fails to amaze me how far out of their way people will go to try and justify shabby behavior. At least STBX had the decency to say I know I'm being selfish and apologize for hurting me, and with a couple of exceptions he's pretty much stayed out of my way and behaved as kindly as possible. I'm not elated that he'd rather chase waitresses than be married but at least he admitted it and asked to separate instead of trying to sneak around and justify himself.
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:26 AM   #713
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Now that's a classy approach!

Uh, yeah, wonder how that will work out for him. And how kind to put the kids in the middle. Jeepers.

I had a rough week. Found out Monday that my 17yo cat, sweet old fellow, is sick. Not surprising at his age. Could be one of several things but all can be treated with cortisone shots so with vet's blessing I'm going to skip the tests, biopsies, invasive treatment for whichever condition it is and just keep him comfortable and happy for as long as possible. Last week my Mom, who's 82, fell and fractured her pelvis. Just a lot of feelings of things irrevocably changing that I'd always taken for granted. On weds I broke down and cried for about 4 hours.

On the bright side at least no one is trying to manipulate my kids (which would be hard since the closest i've gotten are cats and dogs...).

Seriously, hugs to all of you.

It never fails to amaze me how far out of their way people will go to try and justify shabby behavior. At least STBX had the decency to say I know I'm being selfish and apologize for hurting me, and with a couple of exceptions he's pretty much stayed out of my way and behaved as kindly as possible. I'm not elated that he'd rather chase waitresses than be married but at least he admitted it and asked to separate instead of trying to sneak around and justify himself.
To me that is the grown up way to do this, not sneaking around, telling lies to your spouse and children. He was honest with you, and that counts for something.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:07 AM   #714
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To me that is the grown up way to do this, not sneaking around, telling lies to your spouse and children. He was honest with you, and that counts for something.
Right on! Wish mine had at least been this way; hard to know what to say to the kids about morals and ethics and church stuff when their own father is doing everything I'm trying to protect them from.
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:37 PM   #715
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To me that is the grown up way to do this, not sneaking around, telling lies to your spouse and children. He was honest with you, and that counts for something.
I have very much counted my blessings that he was able to do that. It's allowed us to get through all the procedures relatively amicably.

Laurie, I know your husband's actions must create a huge amount of confusion for your kids. It's a tough situation. Even without kids, I felt such a strong sense that marriage meant for better or for worse. What I've learned in the last year is that for all that anyone might hope to live up to that ideal, it's one that you can't fulfill alone. When the other person in that covenant partnership no longer wants to honor that commitment, it leaves the person who remains committed in a position where they're forced to question what they owe to an empty shell.

I'm not sorry for one minute I spent going through counseling or trying to forgive and rebuild. And maybe that's where I'd look for the lesson if I did have children: that while marriage may be a commitment that requires two individuals to honor fully, it's one of the few that does. In every other case, we choose for ourselves how we'll live, how we'll forgive, how we'll honor God and the choices we'll make when no one can see the outcome.

The fact that one parent did not make those choices honorably doesn't mean children won't see and learn from a parent who does, and who finds the grace and strength to behave with dignity. Those convictions aren't worth any less just because one individual makes poor choices.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:18 PM   #716
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Oh, Jane, thank you! You can't know how meaningful your last post is to me right now. He's got the kids tonight, and I was just starting to go into one of those weepy modes when first I came here and your words really hit home with me!!! I wiped the tears and took a deep breath before the flood gates opened. Whew, just in time...

Actually all of you ladies combined with things I'm reading and listening to are a huge help and inspiration right now.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:21 PM   #717
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Hmm, watching a 48 Hours: Hard Evidence episode about a woman who sued her ex-husband's mistress for stealing her man, ruining her life and ruining the lives of their children. Interesting... but in the end she ends up being killed by him, so maybe not a good idea.

Better just find a book to read.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:47 PM   #718
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[QUOTE
The fact that one parent did not make those choices honorably doesn't mean children won't see and learn from a parent who does, and who finds the grace and strength to behave with dignity. Those convictions aren't worth any less just because one individual makes poor choices.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for these words. I am currently going through problems with the fact that my ex has basically moved his gf (the one he cheated on me with for four years during our 17 1/2 year marriage) into our old house. I have a 17 yo son and I feel like I'm the only parent who is setting a good example. I have been feeling that I try so hard to show good morals and values and my ex just cancels me out because of his actions.

I can only hope that my son will be influenced more by me than by his selfish father.

I have been mainly a lurker on this thread since it started and I have to say that it has helped me get through my divorce because I can relate to what many of you are saying. It does get better, but takes a long time. I have been divorced for 3 1/2 years, but sometimes it seems like just yesterday.

Words of advice would be don't rush things, expect setbacks as you move forward on your new journey towards a better life. Remember we will all be better in the end. Take time to heal.

Thanks to all who share their stories on this thread.

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Old 11-13-2011, 03:51 AM   #719
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Oh, Jane, thank you! You can't know how meaningful your last post is to me right now. He's got the kids tonight, and I was just starting to go into one of those weepy modes when first I came here and your words really hit home with me!!! I wiped the tears and took a deep breath before the flood gates opened. Whew, just in time...

Actually all of you ladies combined with things I'm reading and listening to are a huge help and inspiration right now.
Laurie, thank you too. I'd been having a really rough week and kind of wrestling with a lot of the same worries about why I put so much energy into trying to do the right thing when people who behave selfishly seem to have so much of an easier time in life. I got married in the church, and the idea of getting divorced feels like such a betrayal of everything I've always believed in--although I'd be (and have been) the first person to tell friends that for all that I believe in marriage, if you've done your best to fulfill the covenant you made not only with your husband, but with God, then I think it's fair to ask if you've done all you can, how long are you supposed to put up with not just abuse but with someone who deals with a loss of love by behaving with cruelty or passive aggressive nastiness simply to prove your commitment to that covenant.

I know one thing that's helped me a lot with that is coming from a half-Jewish family and seeing the whole Talmudic history of Rabbis wrestling with those sorts of questions and really trying to find that balance between upholding orthodoxy but still seeing that there comes a point where placing strict adherence to exact teaching above all creates more destruction than healing--for example, one of the first debates in the Talmud comes when the Rabbis asked whether, for all their strict commitment to doing no work on the Sabbath, it would break the Sabbath law to do the work of saving a life if someone were in jeopardy. And the Rabbis decided that no, this work would not violate the Sabbath.

Obviously that sort of questioning can lead to all sorts of spiritual abiguity. rationalization and trouble. That's always been why, in Judaism, it's so critical for Rabbis and scholars to debate with one another in those cases, because the point has never been to excuse or rationalize away a serious question, but to acknowledge the humanity of those dilemmas as they arise, and allow space for those who've truly done their best to honor all they believe in, and all they've put heart and soul into fulfilling, but still leave room for compassion for those situations where no perfect answer exists.

Anyway I guess that's a whole different can of worms. But thank you, Laurie. It helps so much to know that I'm not alone either.
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:17 PM   #720
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I had a particulary difficult week last week, it was so heartwarming to come here and read the posts. You are just the most supportive, intelligent women!

I am hoping this week goes better....it was just one thing after the other....last week...
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