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Old 09-26-2004, 12:43 AM   #1
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Default It's a question of evils really. You don't have to read it.

Oh my! If you want people worked up, start talking about politics. I've read both threads because, although many people feel conservatives are just that and stuck in our ways, I like to be informed. I will name no names and I will try to be acurate, but allow for error and apologies. It is, after all, 3 AM.
Let me start off by saying, it isn't so much that I want Bush in the White House, as I DO NOT want Kerry. There are many people who share this view every election. Deny it if you want or call those voters names, but face it, it's happening.
As for the issues of drug/alcohol abuse sustained in the past, I have very little time or patience for that kind of muck-raking of the past. WHat kind of person are they now? THAT is the important question.
And don't get me started about military records. Who knows how to define heroism. It means something different to everyone, like patriotism. How can you tell anyone in the military that they are not heroic? These kindergarten antics by the 2 people that we have to chose from to lead our country, is enough already. Side note: Kerry needs to make up his fickle mind already-would you vote for the war again or not? It's a different story everytime he's asked.
To the people who defend France and Germany: are you kidding me with this? France likes to hang to the rear or on the fence of every issue, so if it goes under, they can retain their self-rightous I-told-you-so s. Even I could've said whether to go to war or not with hindsight. Monday morning quarterbacking annoys everybody. Noone likes an arrogant so-and-so.
Which reminds me: the deficit. Much of this deficit is in "forgiven" debts incurred by countries we have "helped". Not all of it. Who is the first country that the world comes to when in trouble? It sure isn't France or Germany. It's us. To be fair, sometimes our helpfulness comes back to bite us (read Saddam, Afganistan, etc). But I also see the other side. Angola is hardly in a position to repay us. You can thank a Republican for this one. I was told by my American Politics professor that Reagan was the one to bring that issue to the front of the American mind.
The last thing I will say is in regards to a woman's body. I'm catholic, as many of you know, so the thought of abortion is quite a hot button with me. I am lucky-I have never had a situation where I would contemplate such a drastic action. After everything I went through to have my own son, to think about having his life terminated is, in my opinion, the worst kind of extravagance. Not many people know what I went through to have Nickolaus; I can imagine nothing more arrogant as some people's willingness to terminate such a precious gift. Give me credit-I know that not all children are desperately wanted, and yes, there are medical situations that occur. But I will never understand abortion as birth control. So on this issue, I will pull a France and sit on the fence. I have mellowed in my old age, I used to think that back alley deaths were just desserts. I am more tolerant now.

I will be voting for Bush for lack of a better choice.
I feel I can say these things with absolute respect and love for everyone on this forum. For the amount of people here, we're all remarkably open-minded and tolerant of other opinions. None of what I just talked about is intended to offend, it is merely my opinion. Thank you for listening-you had better things to do. You didn't have to read this and you don't have to agree with me. But we better remember that we have to share this country.
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:03 AM   #2
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I don't normally post on these political discussions because my mind is made up, and I'm not interested in changing anyone else's. I have to say that this is a tough election because, for some reason, this great country we live in cannot field two qualified candidates to be president of our country. Apparently, we can't even find one.

It's very sad that we have to vote for one candidate because we think he's the lesser of two evils. We should be voting for the one who stands for what we believe in. I'm doing the same thing as Catie, voting for someone because I don't want the other to win, and I'm really mad about it.

Hopefully by the time we have to do this again four years from now, there will be someone (or two) that people can believe in and get behind.

Carolyn
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: It's a question of evils really. You don't have to read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catie
I can imagine nothing more arrogant as some people's willingness to terminate such a precious gift. Catie
SCS is so unique!
Isn't it great that we all have a place to share, vent, rejoice, congratulate, encourage, rant, and rave!
Thanks for that statement, Catie.
You blessed me this morning!
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:44 AM   #4
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Catie, I agree with everything you wrote.

I'm neither a Republican or a Democrate. But I find, most of the time, I lean more towards the conservative republicans. I have always voted for the best candidate for the position based on the information provided to me. Unfortunately, that usually means relying on the left-wing news media.

I totally support the war in Iraq. I have many friends in the military and to hear the stories they are telling about the conditions the average Iraqi was living under is awful. But does the news media report about all the schools, hospitals, water treatment facilities and power plants our military personnel are building? About how the Iraqi people's daily lives have improved? No, you are bombarded with coverage of skirmishes and the number of American soldiers who have died. Do they report accrately that the people killing our soldiers are NOT Iraqi's - they are insurgents coming from Syria, Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan....

I wish we could just bring ALL our military personnel home. Abandon bases in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc. But if we did that then the radicals would take over and we would be in the same situation that we were in at the beginning of WWII. Isolationism does not work. Because we are successful and tolerant of different beliefs and opinions America will always be a target. To reduce the threat against us we must help the local people keep radicals out of power. A lot a people have the attitude that that is "their" problem - - NO it is everyone in the worlds problem. They don't just keep it in their borders. They will bring it here - do we want to live in constant fear that the mall we're in might be bombed? or the restaurant? or office building where we work? or the amusment park/beach/ski resort we're vacationing at?

Okay - I'll get off my soapbox.

On the issue for France: I have a very good friend who is a surgeon in Paris. He LOVES America and Americans. What he tells me is that it is the young people and the politians in PARIS that hate America. If you go out into the countryside to the villages and towns the attitude towards America and Americans is very different. They remember what we did for them and are still grateful.

On the issue of the economy - Bush had only been President for 8 months when 9/11 happened. The economic situation that resulted from that should not be blamed on him. It should be blamed on all Americans for being afraid to employ people and purchase goods/services. By retreating into a hole, we dug that hole deeper.

I don't like everything that Bush has done or said, but the bottom line with me is: Who will protect me, my family and this country? And I don't believe that person is John Kerry.

WOW - I just read what I've written. Didn't realize I had that much to say on the issue...

I'm adding an attachment that you can read or not.
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:13 AM   #5
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I love 3am posts... they bring out our true selves...

Bush in 2004!!

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Old 09-26-2004, 07:48 AM   #6
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I have to say, I've skimmed over some of the other political threads here, but have often stopped reading quickly. They were completely intolerant of each other's opinions and rude.
I like this thread. I agree that we have two people running for the country that are like little children. It is unfortunate, but we do have to chose the lesser of 2 evils. For me that means Kerry. For others it may mean Bush. Bottom line is that we have to follow our hearts and do what we think is best for us and for our children.
Regardless of what you feel and who you vote for, do your share and VOTE.

My 2 cents
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Old 09-26-2004, 08:18 AM   #7
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I don't agree on the point of our candidates acting like children, at least not Mr. Bush, I haven't watched enough of Kerry to see how he acts, I do know this though about him, he doesn't know what he believes, or at least he rarely has the same opinion on something twice. I respect Mr. Bush a lot, I believe he has been the most godly president we have had since Mr. Reagan. I also agree with whoever was talking about who will protect our country and our families etc. I believe that will be Mr. Bush. After all it was him who said " You may not believe all that I stand for, but at least you know where I stand." I feel confident about Mr. Bush being our President, the thought of Mr. Kerry becoming our next president very honestly strikes fear in my heart. No matter how each of us vote, I think that what this election needs most is the prayer of the voters. I usually don't respond to these political threads, but decided to today. I hope I have not offended anybody with what I believe, and encourage everyone to find out more information about the candidates before you vote. A good place to find information is through the Christian Coalition.

I hope you all have a great day!

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Old 09-26-2004, 08:54 AM   #8
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Well said Kirstin! You stated exactly what I wanted to say.

What I find so sad is the extent of the media bias. It was always bad, but now they have become so obvious in their dislike for the President, I cannot stand to watch them. Others must feel the same as I, because their ratings are terrible.
I also believe it is a whole new world out there, and people in this country are very informed, and not as stupid as some would like to think we are. We will choose who we believe will keep our country safe, and maintain the ideals that makes our country great. I pray that people will make an informed choice, but have faith in the American people to do the right thing.
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:13 AM   #9
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I can't help myself, I have to put in my two cents!

Believe it or not, BOTH sides twist the truth. They will both only tell you what they want you to hear. If you only watch and listen to one side, you are only getting about a fourth of the story.

Whether the media is left slanted or right slanted depends on what you watch, read and listen to. Both sides will tell you it is slanted towards the other. If you are going to listen to Rush Limbaugh, you should also listen to Al Franken. ( as an example )

I also don't care what someone did in the past up until about the age of 27. After that you would hope that the person would grow up and act responsibly. Before that we were all idiots. After that we are creating permanent molds of character so I do think what is done after a certain age is fair ground because who we are today is a direct result of who we were yesterday.

Everyone talks about Kerry voting for or against the war. That vote was not a vote for war. It was a vote of confidence. Bush even said (at the time of the vote) that it was a vote to keep the peace, not to go to war.

There is also talk of almost 2 million jobs being lost when the net loss is actually under 1 million.

Both sides twist the truth. Neither side is as "good" as they try to make you think.

Personally, I am deathly afraid that is Bush is re-elected, they will bring back the draft and start a few more wars but that the next one will involve nuclear weapons. The only thing that will prevent that is improving our foreign relations with EVERYONE. No amount of resolve or home land security can protect us from a nuclear bomb.

In this age of global economy, we can not afford to stand alone. We will also soon be losing our spot as the only super power. China is fast catching up to us and will soon surpass us in power of economy. We better start playing nice with the other kids on the playground.

Well, that is my rant for the week. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Stamping!
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:27 AM   #10
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AshleyAnne-
You are right about France. I tried to remember Normandy when I was there in 1996. The women were fighting over who would feed us, give us a bed for the night. It was the best and the worst feeling. They loved Americans because we helped them in horrible times. They took us to the beaches, and kept hugging us and weeping.
But, like all things in life, the warm welcome didn't last. We were treated so poorly in Paris that I had all but forgotten the wonderfully wrinkled woman that fed us (I can still taste the beef if I think hard enough). I should remember not to let the actions of a few color my vision of all other people.
For the media-I have been highly annoyed with them since Clinton, who was no role model himself. There are certain journalists who are letting personal feelings affect how the news is reported. They aren't using common sense anymore. How quickly we forget the Riviera incident.
Last, I promise-Is anyone else a little tired of these celebrities flapping their mouths about politics? I'm a civilian with an opinion. I admit it. I've had it with these people acting like what they have to say is more important than my gut feelings. BTW-a movie without facts is called PROPAGANDA, not a documentary. I don't like to talk about 9/11 because too many people are all too eager to use it as an excuse, or worse, a prop. But I would have been alarmed had our President, who was sitting in an elementary schoolroom surrounded by kids, started freaking out when he first heard the news. We've all seen the tape. He was visibly affected. What would have been gained by wigging out at that moment?
Thanks to everyone who posted. Different views are great. I like to think I am a tolerant person, but sometimes I fall short. Thanks to you ladies, I'm still standing. Now, LET'S STAMP! Doris, I still have those cookbooks...
Catie

Incidentally-we weren't treated all that well in London, either, but that's a different thread.
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:33 AM   #11
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teewrex75 I couldn't agree with you more.

I don't usually post to political threads either because arguing politics is like shooting yourself in the foot...however, teewrex75 what you said is SOOO true. I worry about Mr. Bush's eagerness to go into anther war. I do agree that we needed to be in Iraq, but I hope that the killing stops and all or our loved ones come home soon.

It is tough being the strong power that we are. We have a moral obligation to help others. We need to do it whether it is popular or not.

The end. I am off my soapbox.
Where else can you openly voice your opinion and not be blasted for it??? SCS, that's the only place I know of!!!
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Old 09-28-2004, 05:11 AM   #12
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Just so that some of you worried about "The Draft" know....that is a false story. The email was circulated among college campuses as a scare tactic. Evidently, it's working because some people actually believe it. There is a grain of truth in it: Charlie Rangle (Wrangle? SP?) is talking about the draft being instituted, but he's a Democrat. You can choose to believe - or not - that his timing is politically motivated, but the President has done everything he can to stop the draft rumor except to stand on a stump and scream "it's not true!"

Also, comparing Rush Limbaugh - who definitely will glorify all good news for Republicans into something more than it may be - is a HUGE difference than Al Franken - who will lie about something and not bat an eyelash. I wouldn't say don't listen to either of them, your choice, whatever you like, but to compare the two of them as equal probably isn't a good idea.
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Old 09-28-2004, 05:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CreativeDiva
I have to say, I've skimmed over some of the other political threads here, but have often stopped reading quickly. They were completely intolerant of each other's opinions and rude.
I like this thread. I agree that we have two people running for the country that are like little children. It is unfortunate, but we do have to chose the lesser of 2 evils. For me that means Kerry. For others it may mean Bush. Bottom line is that we have to follow our hearts and do what we think is best for us and for our children.
Regardless of what you feel and who you vote for, do your share and VOTE.

My 2 cents
I don't necessarily think that the candidates are acting like children, but a fair number of their supporters definitely are! I'm talking about the protesters we saw at the Republican National Convention. We certainly didn't see this kind of outrageous behavior at the DNC! Granted, not all of Mr. Kerry's supporters parade around with lewd or profane slogans plastered across their bodies, or equate President Bush with Adolf Hitler (I saw that in living color, folks, on several news outlets), but I take pride in the fact that we Republicans for the most part let them have their convention in relative peace.
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Old 09-28-2004, 06:58 AM   #14
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Ok, as is the case with many of you, I've kept my mouth shut (or my hands clasped) during all these political threads but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. Although, I'm not planning on changing my mind and I doubt very few people are.

I agree, neither side tells the complete honest truth. But frankly, what is the truth? The truth really is a matter of perception. So to get the whole story you need to listen to everyone's point of view.

A couple of thoughts on France. As far as war many people do not understand their own political situation at home. Americans on the whole don't usually know a whole lot about world politics and really there is so much going on in the world how can you know everything? But France and Paris especially is dealing with lots of Arabian immigrants. And there are a lot of problems because of this. I know when I was there 10-15 years ago there was a lot of prejudice and strife. The other thing to think about is that many other countries, including France, require their young men to do time in military service. To me it's a little easier to send people into war that willingly signed up for the military than to send those who are there because they have to be. Basically what I'm saying is that there are probably a lot of internal reasons that France chose not to support the war that we don't really know or understand.

As far as Parisians being rude. This is true of many large cities that have to deal with tons of tourists. Think of New York. It's hard to have to deal with tourists every day when you just want to go about your business.

Also, France in general is also very proud of their culture and language and they are pushing hard to not loose it completely. Unfortunately, a lot of American businesses (restaurants, stores, and movies) are pushing their way into French culture. Whidh means that when Americans show up and only speak English and still want to hit the local McDonalds I think the French are even more resistant than other cultures.

Now for more hot topics. Kerry was not my choice for Presidential nominee but when you talk about the lesser of two evils I'll definately have to go with Kerry. Bush has lied and mislead the American people. Instead of focusing on terrorism he chose to go after Iraq and the world today is even less safe than it was. Unfortunately now we're stuck in this mess. And what a mess it is. Does anyone really think they are going to be rebuilt on schedule? More and more people are dying every day.

Ok, I think I'm done. There are several other hot topics that I could have gone on about but I'll keep quiet on those....
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Old 09-28-2004, 07:41 AM   #15
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Remember in school we always had a 3rd or a "none of the above" choice!!!!!!!! I want that on my ballot or on a big sign in my front yard:
(A) BUSH
(B) KERRY
NONE OF THE ABOVE!

I wish Edwards wife would run! She's a hoot!
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Old 09-28-2004, 08:08 AM   #16
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Three things...First, I cannot understand how people cannot understand the link between Iraq and terrorism. Saddam funded terrorists...and that is one of the reasons we are there.

Second, I always hear from Democrats how the President lied to the American people....he told us that he was basing his decisions to go to war on information he had at the time from the CIA, FBI, and our intelligence from foreign countries. How is that lying? If that information was wrong, how is that lying to the American people?

Third, You cannot protect our country from nuclear war by negotiation alone. We can talk all we want to countries, and we can make treaties...but face it, people lie and will do what they have to, to protect their interests. We have to protect ourselves as well, and and the best way to do so is to show strength. Talking only gets you so far, but strength.... that speaks volumes. Look at the cold war. We cannot show weakness. We cannot place our hopes on negotiation alone and hoping that if we are just nice to people and getting along with with them, we will be safe. That is not realistic in the world we live in today. There will always be people who hate us, no matter what we do, just because we are such a wonderful country filled with opportunity.
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Old 09-28-2004, 08:13 AM   #17
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I just wanted to say how much I appreciate all of you. I have never seen such a web site. The kindness and love here are outstanding. I personally will vote for Bush because of his views on certain subjects and I won't elaborate. I really think that all my views have been stated already. I think it is the duty of every American just to vote their heart. Look deep inside and just vote for the man who best expresses your views. We owe it to our children and we need to be involved in solutions not contentions and strifes. Thank you for your compassion and love and tolerance. You ladies(and gents!) are the best! Kim
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Old 09-28-2004, 08:34 AM   #18
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I said I wasn't going to post more, but this thread has leaned FAR away from where I intended. I'm sure many political threads do. I, like Carolyn, have no desire to change anyone's mind (well, MAYBE a little ). But sometimes, on the road to a good rant, a few strong opinions must come to play with the good intentions. Mine included.

Again on my least favorite country:France. I'm going to be indignant and a braggart. I went to Europe on a lifetime of Italian, 4 years of French and 1 year of Spanish. Language WAS NOT the reason they were rude to us. I will allow that their annoyance may have been economical, but to imply it was a language barrier is just not on. There is cultural pride, and there's a jerk. We were treated well everywhere else except London. THAT wasn't a language issue either. Also, to compare Parisians and New Yorkers is a serious injustice. I have spent alot of time in NYC before and after 9/11, and NEVER once was I spit on, nor have I ever heard epithets yelled at me. Noone in NYC has ever gone out of their way to NOT help me, and I certainly never had anyone throw a grape at me there. Most certainly, after 9/11, there was a shift in attitude. But it was better than before. Bottom line: I have had about 20 good experiences in NYC, and 3 terrible ones in Paris. You be the judge. For those people who had a good visit in Paris, that's great. Seriously. But after MY visits, I have a hard time slotting that time under my "pleasantly resistant" file.

This makes me remember how fantastic it is to live in these United States. As a woman, I get to vote, go to school, wear darn near whatever I please without having acid thrown in my face (read a story about this in Readers Digest sometime in 2002), I GET TO READ, be on SCS, walk to the grocery store unattended by a male relative, talk to whomever I want, own a television with more channels than just Al Jazzeera, and own a car in my own name. Do you think women did all THAT in Iraq under Hussein?

Doris-you are a gem. Does anyone remember T.Roosevelt's "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy? BTW-are you ever going to buy my cookbooks?

I said in the first thread that I like to listen to all sides and make a choice from there. I would much rather not vote for either one. I'm starting to think about lovemykids' idea: option 'C' sounds better and better. Or let's have a huge write-in. Can you hear the news? "...in a suprise twist, the new President of the United States is someone called Skunky..." What do you think?

Catie
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Old 09-28-2004, 08:35 AM   #19
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Whoa! Don't know what happened there. My apologies to anyone who was just bombarded with 3 on the same posts. Eeek!
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Old 09-28-2004, 08:36 AM   #20
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Yowza!

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Old 09-28-2004, 08:49 AM   #21
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Okay-totally non politics related

I have traveled to Paris 6 times. I love it. I have never had a bad experience there. I have done the big restaurants on the Champs Elysees (sp?) and gone to lots of little dives around town. Never treated rudely, never had anything bad said/done to me. I have always found people to be friendly (and yes, I am a goober who walks around witha smile on my face and takes pics of everything!) Except when I was there for the 1st time at 21 and some guy tried to scam us into giving him money, other than that-good times!

I am the consumate tourist when I go-I even laid down on the floor of Versailles to take cool pic of the ceiling tiles (which was so good it is a poster in my Paris themed living room!). Oh, and I don't speak French.

We also lived in Germany and I had heard horror stories of people being rude. I found the opposite to be true. Maybe I give off a good aura, i don't know, but I have traveled a lot and alwyas loved the places I have gone.

Just wanted to defend my favorite city! LOL
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:06 AM   #22
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This is my personal conviction on voting.

When I vote, there are non-negotiable issues which I will not compromise on, plain and simple.

1. Abortion stops a beating heart. My candidate must be pro-life.
2. Marriage was established by God as a holy union between a man and a woman. My candidate must support that.

Kerry says he is a Catholic, but supports abortion rights and gay marrage. Hmmm. How can I elect a man to office that associates himself with a church that opposes abortion and gay marriage, but in reality he supports these issues?

I can't, in good conscience.

The candidate who stands by his convictions, regardless of which special interest groups will or will not support him, will get my vote. The leader of our country MUST have a backbone.

This has been a very captivating and interesting forum. I'm glad we can feel comfortable enough to share these thoughts here.
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:16 AM   #23
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Quote:
I am the consumate tourist when I go-I even laid down on the floor of Versailles to take cool pic of the ceiling tiles (which was so good it is a poster in my Paris themed living room!). Oh, and I don't speak French.
Hee hee hee. This is funny. I had a friend that laid down under the Arc de Triomphe to take a photo of the ceiling and a Gens D'arme came and told hime to move along - thought he was a bum or something.

I also have been to Paris a number of times and have never been treated rudely - not once!

Catie, I'm sorry if I upset you comparing New York and Paris. I didn't mean that New Yorkers were actually rude I meant that there is a perception of them being rude just as there is a perception of Parisians being rude. I try not to make generalizations about anyone because I've found wonderful people in places where everyone is "rude" and very "rude" people in places where everyone is supposed to be "so nice"! But I do try to understand how there are people out there who may get tired of having to deal with tourists all the time when they are just trying to get on with their daily lives.
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:19 AM   #24
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I have traveled to Paris 6 times. I love it. I have never had a bad experience there
Camsmom, I have to agree with you!
I actually lived in Paris - right in the heart of the city - for a year. I love Paris, and NEVER in the whole year found people to be any ruder than they are anywhere else (actually, they were MUCH friendlier than I find people to be right here in Los Angeles where I grew up).
In fact, some of my closest friends to this day are the Parisians that I met while living there.
It is important to remember this when considering French politics:
Muslim Arabs make up the second largest population of France. French politicians have to take into account that going to war agains arabs ANYWHERE in the world would piss off a vast majority of their voters!!! That doesn't mean that all the French people agree with their government's politics, just that a large majority of voters do.
Kind of like at here home... not all Americans all like Bush, but he was the one elected president and until another president is elected, his policies will represent the United States. For better or worse, whatever your opinion of him is.

my 2 cents (I'm running out of change)
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:27 AM   #25
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1. Abortion stops a beating heart. My candidate must be pro-life.
2. Marriage was established by God as a holy union between a man and a woman. My candidate must support that.
Ok, I'm treading on territory I told myself I wouldn't tread on but...
My personal opinion is this:

1. there is no arguing that abortion stops a beating heart, but I'll be damned if I let some politician tell me what to do with my body. If I chose not to have an abortion that is my CHOICE. I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro choice. BIG distinction.
2. What happened to separation of Church and State?? The church doesn't have to accept a union between 2 women, or 2 men, but the state should. That's why it's called separation. Chris Rock (comedian) said it best when he said : Gay people have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us!!

Ok, my last 2 cents, I'm broke now
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:32 AM   #26
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I have been told by several people that 'Paris is great and you need to just try it again'. Or 'you just weren't in the right place' (I think he just wanted everyone to go down to the red light district-you'ld have to meet Brad to believe him )
It's cool that many of you like Paris-the "art" there is so fantastic and there is so much history-you feel it all over France. But also understand I did not see your Paris, just like you didn't see mine. Your Paris is beautiful and friendly and a place you would go back to without grumbling. My Paris is a place that, while beautiful, is ful of grape-throwing people who insult your heritage and then ignore you. It isn't like I have a snap judgement of Paris-it was off all 3 times! Who throws grapes at people? What is that? My accent was off, but ignoring visitors to your country and throwing grapes at them is wrong!
Diva and Heidi-I might be tempted to try to see your Paris, but I don't think I could take the disillusion...again.
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Old 09-28-2004, 09:46 AM   #27
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Who throws grapes at people? What is that?
Catie,
I can see how your experience can be ruined by a few sour grapes (hee hee, had to put that in!)

I guess everything is perspective. I grew up in a big city, so I'm not phased by what I call "big city attitude".

On the other hand, my dh and I were visiting in TN and as we were leaving our friend's house to go on a little walk around the block (after a VERY filling dinner), someone driving on the street waived at us. After the third or fourth time that this happened my husband looked at me in amusment and said; "Look honey, he's waiving at us with his whole hand, not just one finger, AND he's not even holding a gun!!" (BTW, we don't actually live where anyone has waived a gun at us before, then again people don't just randomly waive or smile at you either)
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:29 AM   #28
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I guess the issue of what politicians can and can't tell us to do with our bodies is probably a hot button for many, mine too. But I feel the need to point out that they do it daily in other ways: Prostitution is not legal (my body my choice?), Drugs are illegal, and the FDA probably has a list several miles long of food items we can NOT import because the food has not been "FDA approved." These are just a couple of ways that politicians DO make decisions about our bodies every day. There are more. In the case of alcohol and drunk driving, the law is there to protect the innocent. IMHO, there are other "innocent" people that are harmed in the practice of abortion, so that's a huge voting issue for me. I know it's just an opinion, but I felt the need to say that politicians absolutely DO make decisions about our bodies, and it's important to choose the right people to make those choices.

Also, "Separation of Church and State" was a statment by Jefferson in a letter, not the verbage in the Constitution. (This is a good reference: http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html) Now, I understand that the we have the wording of "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" in the second amendment, (oddlly, that is also the "freedom of the press" amendment) but that phrase has been used too often in recent years to tell Christians to go home and be quiet. You may agree with that opinion, but I would say, once Government starts "going after" groups, what stops them from coming after yours next? You may not like one particular group, but be careful about shooting yourself in the foot.
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:58 AM   #29
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NavyWyf wrote:
Quote:
You may agree with that opinion, but I would say, once Government starts "going after" groups, what stops them from coming after yours next?
I totally agree, but am on the opposite side of the fence. I do not support the idea of someone being unable to marry b/c the person they love is the same sex. There have been lots of laws in this country stopping people from marrying each other for a myriad of reasons, and they were changed.

Just mho-but I gotta agree with Chris Rock!!
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Old 09-28-2004, 11:16 AM   #30
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Quote:
"congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" in the second amendment, (oddlly, that is also the "freedom of the press" amendment) but that phrase has been used too often in recent years to tell Christians to go home and be quiet
I don't know that it's meant to tell Christians to "go home" as you put it, I think it's meant more to tell everyone else, "you belong here too".

If the argument against gay marriages is that marriage is something that is sanctioned by God to be between a man and a woman, than someone who is atheist shouldn't be stopped from marrying...

my opinion. (anyone have 2 cents to lend me? I'm overdrawn!!)
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Old 09-28-2004, 11:30 AM   #31
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I do feel they may have hit the nail on the head when considering we have 50 contestants to choose from for our Miss America BUT only 2 to pick from for Our President ??? Give me a break.
just my 2 cents
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Old 09-28-2004, 11:30 AM   #32
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My understanding of this (and this is Catholic teaching here) is that the main reason for marriage is to join together a man and a woman, to become one, and to therefore have children together. I have no problem with two men or two women living together, and sharing their lives together. But children do need a father and a mother to help them develop and grow to become a healthy adult. Isn't that the main purpose of marriage? I know this can not always be possible, (ie:divorce, death) but this is the ideal.

So therefore, why is it so necessary for homosexuals to marry? I know that they love each other, and want to make this committment, but can it not be done in a different ceremony? Please enlighten me as to why our society must accept this marriage like we do that of a man and woman......
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Old 09-28-2004, 11:47 AM   #33
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Diva - I wholeheartedly agree that it was not meant to convey that message, I am saying that in today's USA it's being used that way. Places like the US Supreme Court which has the 10 Commandments prominently displayed are under fire because athiests are upset. Those structures are a part of our heritage, and some institutions that are what made us who we are today being destroyed in the name of "tolerance." That is what I was referring to, not that nobody else is welcome! That is far from the truth, our country above all others welcomes people and embraces other cultures. My only problem is that the culture that was predominant here when America was young is getting lost, and would warn that it will happen to others, too, as time goes by.

As far as gay marriage, I completely disagree with it, but I see both sides. I know I can't expect someone who doesn't believe in my personal beliefs to abide by them. It doesn't mean I agree with THEM either, but I can't just sit idly by and say "that's okay" when I feel like it's something God said is wrong. I wouldn't bash someone for believing differently, but I am curious about why they would believe certain things, and love to talk about those things. But standing on the sidelines and spitting at people or trying to trip them up because we disagree isn't something I believe in. That is what has made me cynical about politics in general, too much of that in today's world.
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:09 PM   #34
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I have to say that I truly appreciate the love and respect in this entire thread. There have been BIG disagreements, but NOTHING has turned into personal attack! If we, as a nation, could have more political discussions like this, we might actually get something done!!!

btw-My dh and I are both voting and we are voting with our hearts. I think that is all we can ask from each other. Find out the facts and then vote with your heart!
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:34 PM   #35
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But standing on the sidelines and spitting at people or trying to trip them up because we disagree isn't something I believe in. That is what has made me cynical about politics in general, too much of that in today's world.
I have to say I agree with that!! It's unfortunate that in this day and age (I don't want to say "in this counrty" because I believe this is done almost everywhere) adults resort to such childish behavior. I think they should all be given a time out - like we would do with our kids!!

I too can respect that not everyone agrees with my opinions. I have no problems with that. Part of the beauty of this nation that we all live in and love is that we have a right to our ideas, and others have a right to theirs. Isn't democracy great?

I also have to say that I am so happy that this thread has really stayed positive, despite the fact that there are alot of topics here that can really push people's buttons. I'm so proud of all of us that we are able to rationally discuss these things without getting offensive (or offended for that matter).

If only politicians could follow our example.... I got it ! One of us stampers should run for president!!! I'd vote for someone from SCS for president over Bush and Kerry any day!!! Who's up for the job?

[/quote]
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:38 PM   #36
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By the way,

Quote:
Places like the US Supreme Court which has the 10 Commandments prominently displayed are under fire because athiests are upset. Those structures are a part of our heritage, and some institutions that are what made us who we are today being destroyed in the name of "tolerance."
It is unfortunate, but in a country where someone can be STUPID enough(sorry, no better word) to drive with a cup of hot coffee in their lap and then sue McDonalds because their hot coffee was actually hot AND WIN , you will always find people that will take anything to an extreme...
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:43 PM   #37
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Well, (devil's advocate voice here, LOL) if a marriage is for a man and woman to come together and have children-how about people who cannot or d not have children-is there marriage any less valuable? Geesh, after 10 years with my husband and no biogocal children I hope not! (haha)

AND we give people of the opposite sex who decide NOT to get married but live together many rights because in many states after a point in living tigether they are called common-law husband and wife. SOOOOOO if people who CAN legally get married but choose not to can have their unions seen as valid under common-law terms-why not allow people who WANT to get married to do so? I do not know if it is NECESSARY for homosexuals to marry-but is it really NECESSARY for anyone to? I think (and this knowledge is gained from my gay friends) that when two homosexual people decide to marry it is for the same reason 2 heterosexual people decide to marry-to make a promise and commitment to each other and have it be recoginized legally.

I am not saying everyone has to agree with it, and also understand not everyone will, and that is okay. But realistically there are people who would not agree with my parents marriage b/c they were dfferent races, religions, nationalities, etc. I don't think that any person was made "wrong" in god's eyes, so who am I to judge how they are (gay or straight) or question if they should or should not begiven the same legal rights that I have beased on one aspect of their life.

And yes, I am sure I have gone over my 2 cents quota!!LOL I also want to thanks everyone for being respectful. I know my opinions are not those of others, and vice versa. But I still appreciate your viewpoints!
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Old 09-28-2004, 12:53 PM   #38
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Diva-I think we should do a big write-in for Skunky. How funny would that be? A stamper in the White House...would it still be a 'white' House or would it be a 'Stamp' House...interesting...
Doris-I know you are reading my posts...what about the cookbooks eh? This is a great forum. I've 'met' too many fun people...
Catie
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Old 09-28-2004, 01:00 PM   #39
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Camsmom - I could NOT agree with you more!!!

Catie, I'll sign that petition!! SKUNKY FOR PRESIDENT!
think the slogan should be something like:

Think the other candidates stink?? Vote for Skunky!!

hmm...

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Old 09-28-2004, 01:02 PM   #40
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Love your Skunky slogan!!
And I am sure the White House has a few rooms that would be just perfect for an SCS get together!!LOL
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