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Old 02-24-2007, 10:00 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cara Denise
I have to say I did tell my mom if she didn't want to be cremated, she better make her plans ahead of schedule - cause if left up to me ... well ... dust in the wind baby - dust in the wind!

Stampin Wrose ... Wishy Washy is what comes to mind when I think of religion in general terms and for the very reason you just stated. One minute it's not ok - the next it is - know wonder so many people are confused and questioning their beliefs these days.

Anyway - Stamp Groover I know a number of Christians that are opting for cremation ... for the exact same reason you are ... the cost of a burial - most said if they had the money they'd opt for burial, most cited religious beliefs - but could not really give me a definitive answer other than that --- (huh?)
So my question to you, is would you consider burial IF you could afford it?

Also ... another thing is I absolutely LOVE Christmas - it's my favorite time year ... I love the colors and the lights and all the decorations. I love the good will and smiles on most peoples faces. I love the gifts and the family get togethers.
Does this make me a hypocrite because I derive such great joy for a time that celebrates the birth of Chirst?

ARGH - I'm still confused ... Now I wanna cry
Hey your question as to where if I could afford would I want to be buried...I will leave it up to my family I think I mean to me once I am gone I am gone I wont be here....we get a new body...whatever they think is best is good with me....and dont feel like a hypocite in finding joy in all the lights and gifts and such that comes with Christmas....I believe where there is a joy in it thats a good thing....I love that part of it too....Its fun! Hugs....SG
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:18 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose
Surely there are no new words there! Or are you just charmed by the fact that he got so many in one sentence?
Ta dah! We have a WEENER!

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Old 02-24-2007, 10:46 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cara Denise
I also read some where, for example, that the eggs of Easter are part of an old fertility rite .... tee hee - go figure!
Hmmmm, maybe that's why we have dragged bunnies into it??? LOL
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:07 AM   #84
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Hmmmm, maybe that's why we have dragged bunnies into it??? LOL
The egg, like the rabbit is a symbol of fertility, but is also a sign of the renewal of life--resurrection. The rabbit was supposedly one of Ostara's favorite animals. The word Easter derives from both Ostara, dawn Goddess of fertility (various spellings) and Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon Great Mother Goddess of spring, rebirth, rising sun, etc. Celebrations honoring both goddesses were held around the vernal equinox.

And, as we all know, there are few species as rabidly fertile as rabbits.

Before someone asks, lilies are considered a symbol of renewed life and of purity.

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Old 02-24-2007, 11:21 AM   #85
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Hey your question as to where if I could afford would I want to be buried...I will leave it up to my family I think I mean to me once I am gone I am gone I wont be here....we get a new body...whatever they think is best is good with me....and dont feel like a hypocite in finding joy in all the lights and gifts and such that comes with Christmas....I believe where there is a joy in it thats a good thing....I love that part of it too....Its fun! Hugs....SG
We don't get a new body. That's why you should take care of this one.
You die and the worms crawl in and out.
The end.

I plan to be cremated, because it's way cheaper. I don't even want the pine coffin to be burned up in. A cardboard box is good enough.
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:43 PM   #86
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Okay, here's a good point of discussion for the atheists.

*I* have already read enough to know the answers, but for all the lurkers....

Can you explain WHY it is easy to be a moral person and still be an atheist? Would you mind a little chat on how God is not necessary for morality?

Thanks!
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:51 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose
Okay, here's a good point of discussion for the atheists.

*I* have already read enough to know the answers, but for all the lurkers....

Can you explain WHY it is easy to be a moral person and still be an atheist? Would you mind a little chat on how God is not necessary for morality?

Thanks!
Oh man... that's a lengthy discussion. Can I copy/paste what I've written elsewhere?
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:52 PM   #88
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When I was little, I wanted to be an alter boy. I was so filled with Chirst-love that I wanted to handle the host.
I wanted to be an altar boy when I was a kid too. My motives were a lot less pure than yours, though. The altar boys in my mom's church got to go to a Cubs game each year. Being the lone baseball fan in my family, it was my big chance and I was peeved that I wasn't able to take advantage of it because I was a girl.

You made me laugh by reminding me of the movie "Saved!" with your line about being "filled with Christ-love."
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:58 PM   #89
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Oh man... that's a lengthy discussion. Can I copy/paste what I've written elsewhere?
DEFINITELY!

Hey Chris, I have seen female altar boys. Er, Altar girls. Is that something new? Well, not too new, as I haven't been to church in at least six years.....
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Old 02-24-2007, 02:06 PM   #90
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Default A Q&A for morality.

Every now-and-then, I encounter this debate with theists (mostly American Christians). So,...here's what I've been asked (and answered before) on morality.

Quote:
I know atheists CAN be good people, but what is the source of your morality?
I would argue that our concept of morality is formed, mostly, by our environment. I believe that we, as humans, have the capacity to; consider their actions, way the consequences, and then form a connection between the benefits/harm that results. You'll notice that infants aren't born knowing that biting or pinching, or even murdering, their siblings is wrong. They learn it. Children aren't born with the knowledge that stealing or lying is wrong. They learn it. In fact, in certain environments -even highly religious environments- they may not learn, or embrace, the same moral construct that most Christians abide by. With or without religion, most organisms don't offer themselves up for the slaughter/harm.

There are physiological consequences for carbon based creatures (us!) when we make choices. There are psychological consequences for our choices. Often, what we consider to be "morals" are generation-after-generation of programming (at an evolutionary level) saying, "This behavior does not secure the position of my offspring." If I muder someone, I am more likely to be murdered in retaliation. Furthermore, if I murder someone, people will be less likely to look favorably upon my offspring. Furthermore, if I murder someone, the social network of humanity imposes punishments and fines... we do not like this.

This usually leads to this question...
Quote:
What about moral absolutes? Do you think they exist?
The short answer that I use on that one is: NO.
The long answer is: They can not exist?
I can't get into this further, but for the purposes of the original questions...let's move on.

Usually, this leads to this sort of question:
Quote:
Survival of the fittest is the driving force of evolution. But according to that position, rape is morally justifiable.
No. Evolution does not make this case at all. In fact, the rapist is likely to suffer the social reprocussions of being a rapist. Rape is not condusive to one's survival. Rapists have long been considered to be the dregs of society and treated thusly (usually killed or castrated). I think you would be hard-pressed to find any evolutionist who used rape as an example of Darwinian principals.

I would like to ask you this question: If your grasp of right and wrong is so tenuous that you need the threat of God to keep you in line, then how do you explain the data that shows atheists as the least represented population (even when adjusted for population density) in prison? Obviously, there are a large number of people who don't require God to lead a "good life". I realize that you would probably take the default position that "without God, there is no good life." However, I would still like to hear your justification. Furthermore, I'm afraid that a belief in God HASN'T stopped a great majority of moral wrongs from occuring.


This usually results in a reformation of the original question:
Quote:
The fact that many people, even atheists, can differentiate right from wrong proves that God must exist—because a moral law requires a moral lawgiver.
The fact that many people can differentiate between right and wrong does not prove God's existence. At best, that's a logical falacy. At worst, it's unfounded double speak. The alternative to that would be: "The fact that so many people, even Christians, act badly and immorally, proves that God must not exist." I hardly think you would allow that argument to stand. I'm assuming you've studied philosophy and logic, probably even debate, so you have to know that A does not always equal B. As does NOT-A always equal B. There are far too many potentials to make such a statement.

Evolution does not mean that you always evolve towards a "better species". That presumes that the organism in question actually has an "end" in mind. That's simply not the case. Single cell organisms don't start out and say, "hmmmm...one day, millions of years from now, I think I'd like to be a puffer fish." Evolution, it's important to note, has NO END IN MIND. It's the observation of what has already happened, not the study of what WILL happen. You CAN take the concepts of evolution and apply it to make a better formed opinion about what MIGHT happen next, but... it would only ever be a guess (because you can't forsee what environmental factors might change tomorrow).

Here... the questioner, again, says:
Quote:
But where does your morality COME from? Theism must be presumed.
I believe that there will never be 100% concurity on complex philosophical issues. So, at face value, I believe that there is moral relatvism (I know, theists usually HATE that claim). I think that all questions can, and should be, approached with a nod to humanitarianism, science, math, and any other means of rational data we might get our hands on. There are, in my opinion, a few basic axioms for morality, and they in no way depend on a deity.
I'm going to cut and paste what I've written for another board:
A few possible axioms in morality are:

Every person has their own feelings and desires, and they are more or less similar since they are based on the same brain chemistry.
When I look inward to my own desires, I fundamentally desire to pursue happiness and avoid pain and suffering.
Other people have these same basic desires, and these desires are valuable to them.
With all else being equal, it is better for people to be happy than not be happy.
Conflicts arise mainly because people's desire to be happy and avoid suffering conflict with each other. The goal of secular morality is to resolve those conflicts in the best possible way for all concerned.
A few natural consequences of these axioms:

All else being equal, it is wrong to needlessly inflict suffering on people.
Except for the case of self-preservation, with all else being equal, it is best to avoid killing other people (on the assumption that they don't want to be killed).
Actions such as slavery and rape are wrong because they excessively limit people's happiness and freedom of action.

Following on the heels of those axioms, you can delve into the realm of evolutionary psychology (which I find fascinating!).
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Old 02-24-2007, 02:07 PM   #91
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DEFINITELY!

Hey Chris, I have seen female altar boys. Er, Altar girls. Is that something new? Well, not too new, as I haven't been to church in at least six years.....
It's something new within the last fifteen years or so. When *I* was a kid, it was verbotten. Now, it seems pretty commonplace.
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Old 02-24-2007, 02:10 PM   #92
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The short answer that I use on that one is: NO.
The long answer is: They can not exist?
I can't get into this further, but for the purposes of the original questions...let's move on.
Please ignore the multiple homophone errors in my previous post.
This should also read:
I *CAN* get into this further...
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Old 02-24-2007, 02:15 PM   #93
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Oops. I posted already, but didn't really explain why I'm joining the thread. I'm an agnostic, in the sense that I don't know if there is a God/god(s)/Goddess/goddess(es)/higher power/etc. I know that in many definitions, agnostic also means that the person believes that the existance of a higher power is both unknown and unknowable. I don't claim that, just that I don't personally know. I get irritated when I read that agnosticism is just a wishy-washy version of atheism. I'm not an atheist. I can't prove that there is no higher power and I can't prove that there is. I don't have the hubris to believe that that means it can't be proven one way or the other, I just know that I haven't proven it and haven't seen a proof that I believe. In the interest of fair disclosure, I'm a math person and so "proof" to me has a very specific meaning. I hesitated before posting to this thread. I know that non-Christians on the board, Chris in particular, have been on the receiving end of some threats because of her religious beliefs or lack thereof. I don't want to deal with that, but I'm taking the easy way out. I'm not going to join parts of the website (RAK forum, etc) that would require me to give out my address. I respect that others have different beliefs than I do. I don't respect anyone who feels the need to harass another human being because of differing beliefs. I promise not to show up on anyone's doorstep trying to change their beliefs and I also promise not to send anyone terrible things in the mail. Please give me the same courtesy.

To answer Kathy's QOTD, I see that Chris has already posted and, frankly, anything that I add will sound like "errr...uhhh....ummm..." compared to that. So, instead, I'll do a lazy "what she said!"
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Old 02-24-2007, 03:38 PM   #94
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Hey all, fellow agnostic and atheist here. I don't have time to add much to the thread but wanted to say I'm glad it's here. I have a sick child and won't be on the boards much. I can't wait to go back and read what all everyone has had to say.

Great thread idea Chris! Well, back to holding my little one's hand. They're so pitiful when they're not feeling well.
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Old 02-24-2007, 05:20 PM   #95
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I may very well get blasted for this, but it is a direct quote from a hospice nurse. She told me if you were not a believer when you began your career, you were when you left it. I asked her what she meant, and she said you can tell by their passing who the believers were. I understood what she meant when my mom, whom I cared for, for 3 1/2 yrs, passed away.

I do not mean to antagonize, just to point out another point of view.
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:35 PM   #96
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Default A gentle reminder...

I just want to pipe in with a reminder that this thread is to be a place for athiests and agnostics to gather and share their own thoughts and experiences and just in general "hang out" w/out debating the merits of any faith based religions.

While it may seem tempting to share faith based experiences here, I think it best if they are kept out of this thread. I know the other religious threads would not want to be invaded by non-believers chiming in with their experiences, so we all need to extend the same courtesy here in this thread.

Thanks everybody.
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:55 PM   #97
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I too loveee christmas..i decorate to the hilt..all home made stuff..lights, trees boughs the whole bit.. I also want to be cremated, my just was a year ago..my mom passed in 1987 she wanted to be buried..her choice..as is mine , hubby's, sis, our kids etc..by choice not for the reason of cost..i just don like the idea of being buried in the ground.. My ashes go in a quart sealer and will be spread on my pet cemetary here on our land..and the rest spread back where i was brot up and where my granparents and ancestors r buried..hubby will be doing the same..loves ya all..Gail
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:58 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virginia
Hey all, fellow agnostic and atheist here. I don't have time to add much to the thread but wanted to say I'm glad it's here. I have a sick child and won't be on the boards much. I can't wait to go back and read what all everyone has had to say.

Great thread idea Chris! Well, back to holding my little one's hand. They're so pitiful when they're not feeling well.
Poor little one.
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Last edited by AngFab; 02-24-2007 at 07:17 PM..
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Old 02-24-2007, 06:59 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by AngFab
I just want to pipe in with a reminder that this thread is to be a place for athiests and agnostics to gather and share their own thoughts and experiences and just in general "hang out" w/out debating the merits of any faith based religions.

While it may seem tempting to share faith based experiences here, I think it best if they are kept out of this thread. I know the other religious threads would not want to be invaded by non-believers chiming in with their experiences, so we all need to extend the same courtesy here in this thread.

Thanks everybody.
Thank you, Mrs. Fab.
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:02 PM   #100
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To answer Kathy's QOTD, I see that Chris has already posted and, frankly, anything that I add will sound like "errr...uhhh....ummm..." compared to that. So, instead, I'll do a lazy "what she said!"
First- welcome to the thread!
Second- I've been reading this little bit of your post again and again...
I think I need to say, just for the record, that anyone who has other beliefs about where morality comes from (as an atheist/agnostic) should totally post their thoughts. There's no one "right way" or "right answer". So, even if you have something small to add, or expound upon, or contradict, let it fly.

Atheists take many paths to come to where they've arrived.
No one gets there via the same route. So, even the smallest of differences can be important.
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Old 02-24-2007, 07:44 PM   #101
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I was an alter girl for a little while. But I just remembered that I dosed off once when kneeling at the altar. The other guy had to elbow me because I missed ringing the bell. Must have been in prep for communion. Absolutely nothing to do with atheism/agnosticism but it makes me feel a little bit better that I've been tired forever and is not just a new thing.

I learned a lot of morality (or life's lessons) from people at school and friends growing up. Kids can be awful to each other and I never wanted to make other people feel the way I felt. Or maybe I just have a lot of empathy, for everyone and everything.
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Old 02-24-2007, 08:35 PM   #102
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On needing a religion to have some morality:

My DH frequently responds to that by askng "Why can't you just be good for the sake of being good? Do a nice thing to be nice. Care about another purely to care. Set a good example to pass on compassion. Religion teaches the same thing that parents teach kids by rewarding them with candy for ceasing a tantrum - that if you do what I say I'll give you a treat when you're done..." I've always found his response to be amusing, yet kinda true!

Also, there are PLENTY of examples of the most supremely religious people behaving completely immorally - but I won't go there just yet
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Old 02-24-2007, 08:44 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stagccva
On needing a religion to have some morality:

My DH frequently responds to that by askng "Why can't you just be good for the sake of being good? Do a nice thing to be nice. Care about another purely to care. Set a good example to pass on compassion. Religion teaches the same thing that parents teach kids by rewarding them with candy for ceasing a tantrum - that if you do what I say I'll give you a treat when you're done..." I've always found his response to be amusing, yet kinda true!

Also, there are PLENTY of examples of the most supremely religious people behaving completely immorally - but I won't go there just yet
Exactly!!! The reward of heaven, the threat of hell....
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:52 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagpuss
Try this: Beliefnet.com
I went there, it said my #1 corresponding belief was secular humanism (or something like that - I did this a while ago, so there is no more accurate short-term memory on this)
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Old 02-25-2007, 06:57 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SophieLaFontaine
I went there, it said my #1 corresponding belief was secular humanism (or something like that - I did this a while ago, so there is no more accurate short-term memory on this)
That's me, too. Although, in the past, I was a "technohippie"!
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:18 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cara Denise
I have a question for Scarlett and the other athiest ...
Do any of you celebrate Christmas in any form?
I celebrate Christmas AND Easter! I have two 3-feet-tall Christmas trees in my room all year round, just because I like looking at them. Of course, I ignore most of the religious stuff in my own celebrating (except that I made religious cards for my parents for them to give to other people). I like listening to all the Christmas music - even the religious carols - NOT because I believe them (I don't), but because I enjoy the simple melody lines and the familiar flow of words. Just as I try to tell my mom that just because I celebrate Halloween does not mean I am a devil worshipper, I know that when I celebrate Christmas, it doesn't make me a Christian.

For Easter, I also ignore the religious stuff. I love making cards with bunnies and eggs. And I like writing little messages on slips of paper and putting them in the toy Easter eggs and hiding those around the house.

Not only that, but we celebrate my Saint's Day and DH's Saint's Day (and I was not even raised Catholic!). My grandma was big on the Saints' Days celebrations and I guess I came to view them as sort of a 2nd birthday, with presents and cake. Of course on those days as well, we don't pay any attention to the actual saint. I don't know anything about Sainte Sophie. I am pretty sure my grandma was not raised Catholic either as she is now a Protestant. It is just that in her childhood, it was common for the French folk to celebrate their Saint's Days, and she passed the tradition onto me.
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:21 AM   #107
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I grew up enjoying Christmas and so of course I love it. I have many great childhood memories of my family all coming together at that time and I was able to see cousins, aunts, and uncles that I didn't get to see hardly at all otherwise. So for me, it's simply a time of year to see extended family, have a nice few days off with my immediate family, cook up a feast, and to play Santa.

As far as morality goes, I think Chris answered it very well. We are social beings, so it's not a stretch that we cooperate with each other and don't enjoy killing and maiming members of our own tribe so to speak. If we all ran around and did that, we wouldn't have any peace or safety and things would constantly be chaos. So, cooperation and a social order of things benefits everyone. I see our social behavior as a natural thing that has evolved along with us.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:29 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by virginia
I grew up enjoying Christmas and so of course I love it. I have many great childhood memories of my family all coming together at that time and I was able to see cousins, aunts, and uncles that I didn't get to see hardly at all otherwise. So for me, it's simply a time of year to see extended family, have a nice few days off with my immediate family, cook up a feast, and to play Santa.

As far as morality goes, I think Chris answered it very well. We are social beings, so it's not a stretch that we cooperate with each other and don't enjoy killing and maiming members of our own tribe so to speak. If we all ran around and did that, we wouldn't have any peace or safety and things would constantly be chaos. So, cooperation and a social order of things benefits everyone. I see our social behavior as a natural thing that has evolved along with us.
Yep. Morality is what we have learned works. Systems of ethics which don't work collapse into extinction.

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Old 02-25-2007, 11:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by SkyesMom
I am in between the two.
I posted this the other night just I was going to bed, I want to think a little before I posted so I could express accurately my beliefs without sounding like a dope.

I am more agnostic then atheist, I suppose. I dont know if a god exsists but it really doesnt matter.

I was raised without going to church or being taught a certain religion but encouraged to find a path right for me. We celebrated christmas as the season for giving and helping others in need, we celebrated Halloween, easter,etc without the religious ties to them. I find it almost laughable that the people that are religious think because I am not that I dont have morals or boundaries. (That was not meant to be a blanket statement) Those were also taught to me as well, its not like a I am wild bandchee running around.

I am so happy there is a thread like this now. I have thought for a long time about starting one but I just wasnt so sure.

Taylor- I am gonna have to read that book you are talking about.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:32 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cara Denise
?

Also ... another thing is I absolutely LOVE Christmas - it's my favorite time year ... I love the colors and the lights and all the decorations. I love the good will and smiles on most peoples faces. I love the gifts and the family get togethers.
Does this make me a hypocrite because I derive such great joy for a time that celebrates the birth of Chirst?

ARGH - I'm still confused ... Now I wanna cry
Cara, it does not make you a hypocrite at all for loving Christmas. I am one of the biggest Christmas fans you will ever find. My family and I put on a very large lights display for the neighborhood, I decorate year-round for Christmas, collect anything Christmas related, etc.Also, because my husband believes in god we have 2 nativity scenes in our display. Doesnt bother me a bit because thats what he celebrates and I respect that. I may not celebrate the birth of some god, but I do celebrate the love I have for my fellow mankind, and I celebrate the joy and freedom of just being able to wake up and breathe everyday on this beautiful Earth of ours. Do I run into some folks that have a problem with an atheist loving Christmas so much? Of course, you will always run into that but I just smile at them, say Merry Christmas and leave it at that
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:39 PM   #111
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We gather with family at Christmas and Easter because my husband and I grew up celebrating both. We minimize the Christian contributions to both holidays and maximize the pagan roots, but don't celebrate either in a spiritual fashion. 'The current cultural trappings of Santa and the Easter Bunny are mentioned and stockings and baskets are present, but not emphasized, in part because I don't like lying to my children (the phrase "some people believe ... what do you believe?" are said frequently around here).

As for morality, I think healthy people have a sense of empathy and compassion as well as self-preservation and those work together in a way that benefits individual and collective lives. Almost every "law" can be traced to "treat people as you want to be treated". I think that's about the only absolute most people can agree upon; any argument with the golden rule is usually based in "they're not really people". I don't think there is any supernatural reason for humans to have evolved empathy and compassion (self-preservation is common to most species); just another consequence of our big brains.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:10 PM   #112
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I'm glad I started this thread for you guys.
I hope you guys continue to learn and grow and find peace.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:24 PM   #113
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Why is it, in this day and age, that many atheists are afraid to be public about it?

Even out here in the liberal Bay Area, where most people don't talk much about religion, and everyone does their own thing... one of my best friends is atheist and I didn't know it for a year. It never came up and she never mentioned it.

I did "out" myself to my sister in an email yesterday, that I "thought" I was agnostic. My family is Catholic, but she is the most unreligious. I wasn't sure how she'd take it. Her response surprised me, "I think I'm like you."

So now at least we can talk about it!
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:27 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose
Why is it, in this day and age, that many atheists are afraid to be public about it?

Even out here in the liberal Bay Area, where most people don't talk much about religion, and everyone does their own thing... one of my best friends is atheist and I didn't know it for a year. It never came up and she never mentioned it.

I did "out" myself to my sister in an email yesterday, that I "thought" I was agnostic. My family is Catholic, but she is the most unreligious. I wasn't sure how she'd take it. Her response surprised me, "I think I'm like you."

So now at least we can talk about it!
Why? Because of all the conceptions many people have of atheists and agnostics.

Come on, Wrose. You just KNOW you're dancing nekkid under the moon worshipping the devil!

Or you're a God hater.

Or a baby-killer.

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Old 02-25-2007, 10:42 PM   #115
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Come on, Wrose. You just KNOW you're dancing nekkid under the moon worshipping the devil!
She is. I saw it on Youtube.
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Old 02-25-2007, 11:11 PM   #116
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Hmmm... baby-killer. For some reason, that made me think of Alice's Restaurant.

You know, they play that out here every Thanksgiving Day at noon on our local Classic Rock station. And we always listen.
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Old 02-26-2007, 02:13 AM   #117
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She is. I saw it on Youtube.

She's not denying it.
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Old 02-26-2007, 02:14 AM   #118
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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She's not denying it.
Oooh, you are a naughty girl!
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Old 02-26-2007, 02:15 AM   #119
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Tee hee.
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Old 02-26-2007, 02:16 AM   #120
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I just found Alice's Restaurant on You Tube, but don't have time to watch it all. Here it is in case you want to see it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_7C0QGkiVo
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