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Old 04-10-2009, 01:49 PM   #4401
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LOL Yup, that's what I grew up with.
Me too.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:54 PM   #4402
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Question -
Have you ever been met with disagreement or negativity about you (as a non-theist) celebrating traditionally-Christian or other religious holidays?

A friend once held issue with my family celebrating Christmas because of my lack of worshipping Christ. I would expect Easter would result in similar response. It surprised me.

For me - having never been raise WITH religion - these holidays have always been and are simply family holidays. While I understand and am informed of their "religious" meaning - it doesn't apply to me because of my personal beliefs.... but I love the tradition, ritual, family-binding and general feeling of "holidays", so we enjoy them - just sans the religious overtones.

We all enjoy getting together, eating good food, celebrating life and family.
Media and stores support the idea that Christmas is for everyone (Santa, reindeer, Cmas trees, candy canes) and that Easter is for everyone (bunny, eggs, candy).



Do you think it is offensive to hard-core Christians that a holiday that is so meaningful religiously to them is celebrated by others that do not share their faith?
Your friend should remember that Christmas is a federal holiday. Not because our govt. is religious but because it recognizes that most of its citizens would want that day off.

It's like school districts that choose holidays off - in Florida we got the Jewish holidays off, they were called "Fall Holidays" - they recognized our huge Jewish population and knew that attendance would be way down, so just go with the flow.

We get Cinqo de Mayo off here. And now the county (don't remember if it's the whole state) closes offices on March 30 or 31 for Cesar Chavez day.
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Old 04-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #4403
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Heck, I know Jewish families that celebrate Christmas. Without the religious part.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:28 PM   #4404
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Oh I don't plan on forgoing our family holidays to placate pushy religious people - I was just very surprised by her comments and had never thought of it from that perspective.

I wondered if it was a common feeling among religious people towards non-religious people.
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:38 PM   #4405
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Oh I don't plan on forgoing our family holidays to placate pushy religious people - I was just very surprised by her comments and had never thought of it from that perspective.

I wondered if it was a common feeling among religious people towards non-religious people.
Well if it is, they need to GET OVER IT to use a phrase from one of the previous posters
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:40 PM   #4406
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Oh I don't plan on forgoing our family holidays to placate pushy religious people - I was just very surprised by her comments and had never thought of it from that perspective.

I wondered if it was a common feeling among religious people towards non-religious people.
I don't think it's that common, in general. Perhaps there are some groups that manage to get upset over it, but those would be the same people that are upset about a lot of things, and - it seems to me - seem to think the US should be a theocracy in Christianity.
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:23 AM   #4407
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Oh I'm positive. I positive you've found your way to a thread where you won't be happy.
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:31 PM   #4408
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Removed by momtoggk...

Last edited by momtoggk; 04-13-2009 at 12:36 PM.. Reason: Sent PM instead of posting on thread
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:30 AM   #4409
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As long as this thread has been going on, I am sure this point has been discussed before at this time of the year, but why do you think that Christians did not re-name the pagan festival of estrous? Every symbol of the celebration of Easter that is not strictly, Biblically Christian is a celebration of a regular, recurrent state of sexual excitement, estrous. Eggs? Chicks? And those prolific propagators, Rabbits? By extention, the holiday also celebrates the sprouting of seeds in the ground, the flow of sap in the trees, the warm rain nourishing the earth, but the symbols of Easter and the name "Easter" are pagan acknowledgements of going into heat. Did this not occur to the Christians of the time, or at any time since?
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:49 AM   #4410
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Maybe it has to do with bringing pagans into the Christian fold. If you keep the aspects of the pagan holiday - name included, and slide in a little Christianity, it might make the whole convert or die a fiery death a little easier to swallow.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:09 AM   #4411
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Maybe it has to do with bringing pagans into the Christian fold. If you keep the aspects of the pagan holiday - name included, and slide in a little Christianity, it might make the whole convert or die a fiery death a little easier to swallow.
That's pretty much what I was taught. The Christians let everyone keep their old symbols, and just overlaid their holiday on top.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:39 PM   #4412
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Actually, just this year I first noticed my co-worker and then another SCSer refer to it as "Resurrection Day". Maybe they always had, and I just never noticed.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:55 PM   #4413
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Actually, just this year I first noticed my co-worker and then another SCSer refer to it as "Resurrection Day". Maybe they always had, and I just never noticed.
I'm guessing some religious people are pushing the name Resurrection Day to rescue Easter from the eggs and bunnies and other such non-religious notions. Haven't heard or read anything around here to that effect.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:02 PM   #4414
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It was on one of the threads, but was not a big deal (it wasn't the reason for the thread; it was just chitchat)... it was apparently Sunday when they posted, so some people were saying (typing) "Happy Easter to everyone" etc. and someone typed "Happy Resurrection Day" and someone else typed "Happy resurrection to you too". You know, that type of stuff. I think they had finished discussing the actual topic and had begun to talk about what they were going to have for Easter supper.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:08 PM   #4415
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It was on one of the threads, but was not a big deal (it wasn't the reason for the thread; it was just chitchat)... it was apparently Sunday when they posted, so some people were saying (typing) "Happy Easter to everyone" etc. and someone typed "Happy Resurrection Day" and someone else typed "Happy resurrection to you too". You know, that type of stuff. I think they had finished discussing the actual topic and had begun to talk about what they were going to have for Easter supper.
I get that it was just a casual thing. I'm just saying that I haven't heard that expression either and I'm guessing it's just some people's way of putting forward the idea that "Jesus is the reason for the (Easter) season.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:51 PM   #4416
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Actually, just this year I first noticed my co-worker and then another SCSer refer to it as "Resurrection Day". Maybe they always had, and I just never noticed.
Funny that you said this as I had never heard of it until I was on a conference call on Friday and someone said to all of us have a happy Resurrection Weekend. I was baffled since I work for a company with 42,000 US employees and didn't expect that! My Jewish coworker sent me an IM asking if he should wish her a Happy Passover.
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:18 PM   #4417
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As long as this thread has been going on, I am sure this point has been discussed before at this time of the year, but why do you think that Christians did not re-name the pagan festival of estrous? Every symbol of the celebration of Easter that is not strictly, Biblically Christian is a celebration of a regular, recurrent state of sexual excitement, estrous. Eggs? Chicks? And those prolific propagators, Rabbits? By extention, the holiday also celebrates the sprouting of seeds in the ground, the flow of sap in the trees, the warm rain nourishing the earth, but the symbols of Easter and the name "Easter" are pagan acknowledgements of going into heat. Did this not occur to the Christians of the time, or at any time since?
Easter is indirectly named after Ostara, goddess of renewal and to her celebration, Oestara, the time when the dark and the light is balanced. Ostara's symbols are rabbits and eggs, both representations of fertility/reproduction/renewal of life.

Frosted Gorilla is correct. By allowing the pagans to hang onto their symbols, it was much easier to get them to accept Christianity.

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Old 04-15-2009, 07:57 AM   #4418
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Funny that you said this as I had never heard of it until I was on a conference call on Friday and someone said to all of us have a happy Resurrection Weekend. I was baffled since I work for a company with 42,000 US employees and didn't expect that! My Jewish coworker sent me an IM asking if he should wish her a Happy Passover.
The French word for "Easter" is "Pâques" which actually means "Passover"!
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:46 AM   #4419
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I would imagine that Oestara is sometime in June, when the light and the dark actually are in balance.

It would please me if Christians started celebrating Resurrection Day and sending Resurrection Lilies. Then we could have Easter to ourselves and there be no finger-pointing and tut-tutting when we bring out the bunnies and eggs. I get very tired of being told what the "real" meaning Easter and the "real" meaning of Christmas are.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:46 PM   #4420
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In fact, Catholics referred to all the days from Ash Wednesday to Pentecost as the Paschal (Passover) season.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:15 PM   #4421
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I would imagine that Oestara is sometime in June, when the light and the dark actually are in balance.

It would please me if Christians started celebrating Resurrection Day and sending Resurrection Lilies. Then we could have Easter to ourselves and there be no finger-pointing and tut-tutting when we bring out the bunnies and eggs. I get very tired of being told what the "real" meaning Easter and the "real" meaning of Christmas are.
The vernal equinox fell on March 20th this year. Day and night were equal.

Summer solstice, the longest day of the year, falls on June 21st this year.

Autumnal Equinox will be on Sep 22 2009. Day and night are equal again.
(The clue is in the prefix of "equinox.")

Winter Solstice, the shortest day, falls on Dec 21 2009.

Resurrection lilies bloom in early fall, the middle to end of August.

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Old 04-15-2009, 07:18 PM   #4422
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The French word for "Easter" is "Pâques" which actually means "Passover"!
That is really cool. Thanks for sharing. I love learning something new everyday.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:47 AM   #4423
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I had forgotten that there is actually a lily called a Resurrection Lily. They are beautiful.
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:09 AM   #4424
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I had forgotten that there is actually a lily called a Resurrection Lily. They are beautiful.
They are--and in my opinion--expensive. Any bulb costing $6-$16 a bulb is too expensive for my garden.

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Old 04-16-2009, 10:39 AM   #4425
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They are--and in my opinion--expensive. Any bulb costing $6-$16 a bulb is too expensive for my garden.

Rainsong

Rainsong, you need to cultivate some gardening buddies. Or join a group that has plant exchanges and let it be known that you want a Resurrection Lilies. When they are happy, they multipy like crazy. I am sure someone would be willing to share with you.

I belong to GardenWeb and the Minnesota Forum is where I spend most of my time. There are always 4 or 5 plant exchanges each year. I hosted a spring one at my house the year before last. I got TONS of plants because when people went home they left at my house everything they had brought that no one took. Alas, no Resurrection Lilies.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:20 AM   #4426
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Rainsong, you need to cultivate some gardening buddies. Or join a group that has plant exchanges and let it be known that you want a Resurrection Lilies. When they are happy, they multipy like crazy. I am sure someone would be willing to share with you.

I belong to GardenWeb and the Minnesota Forum is where I spend most of my time. There are always 4 or 5 plant exchanges each year. I hosted a spring one at my house the year before last. I got TONS of plants because when people went home they left at my house everything they had brought that no one took. Alas, no Resurrection Lilies.
Oh, no. I'm in the witness protection program. Didn't anyone tell you? (grin)

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Old 05-24-2009, 09:31 PM   #4427
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The End of the World (or rising gas prices)

I’ve been the dreaded lurker on this thread for quite awhile. I’ve read a great deal of the posts but not every single one so if this topic has been covered, please forgive me.

My 81 y/o mother is driving me CRAZY. Every natural disaster, hike in gas prices, political change, etc., is a sign of the ‘end times’ according to her. She’s always telling me we have to be ‘ready’. Any mention of plans for the future are met with – ‘we won’t have to worry about that’. More than once I’ve replied ‘great, I’ll quit my job, stop paying my bills and enjoy what time is left’. That brings utter panic on her part – ‘oh no, you can’t do that’. She has no faith in her faith. She is not out doing good works and leading by example. She sits in her house scared to death of EVERYTHING.

Yes she’s old, and I don’t want to upset her, but that shouldn’t give her a free pass to cause fear in my life. How do I deal with her???
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:20 PM   #4428
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The End of the World (or rising gas prices)

I’ve been the dreaded lurker on this thread for quite awhile. I’ve read a great deal of the posts but not every single one so if this topic has been covered, please forgive me.

My 81 y/o mother is driving me CRAZY. Every natural disaster, hike in gas prices, political change, etc., is a sign of the ‘end times’ according to her. She’s always telling me we have to be ‘ready’. Any mention of plans for the future are met with – ‘we won’t have to worry about that’. More than once I’ve replied ‘great, I’ll quit my job, stop paying my bills and enjoy what time is left’. That brings utter panic on her part – ‘oh no, you can’t do that’. She has no faith in her faith. She is not out doing good works and leading by example. She sits in her house scared to death of EVERYTHING.

Yes she’s old, and I don’t want to upset her, but that shouldn’t give her a free pass to cause fear in my life. How do I deal with her???
Oh man. Has she always been this way, or maybe has it just gotten worse?

I don't know much about the End Times stuff. I actually never heard about The Rapture until a few years ago! (I had 12 years of Catholic HS and have a degree from a Jesuit Univ., I guess we never covered it!)

I want to say, be patient, love her, and let it go in one ear and out the other, but honestly, I don't know....

Thanks for posting, though. This has been such a good thread.
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:29 AM   #4429
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Oh man. Has she always been this way, or maybe has it just gotten worse?

I don't know much about the End Times stuff. I actually never heard about The Rapture until a few years ago! (I had 12 years of Catholic HS and have a degree from a Jesuit Univ., I guess we never covered it!)

I want to say, be patient, love her, and let it go in one ear and out the other, but honestly, I don't know....

Thanks for posting, though. This has been such a good thread.
Dang Wrose! I bet the college degree was a breeze after all that! (raspberry blowing smiley here)

(This is the first time I've poked my head in this thread and have only read this last page, sorry for the rude entrance! LOL!)
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:31 AM   #4430
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Yes she’s old, and I don’t want to upset her, but that shouldn’t give her a free pass to cause fear in my life. How do I deal with her???
Yikes, dunno what to tell you. Just sending sympathy your way.
My knee-jerk reaction would be to continuously say "well, I'd like to go ahead and discuss these plans for the future, in case the world does NOT end. Would you rather have me discuss them with someone else then, if you are not going to worry about this?"
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:51 AM   #4431
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Oh man. Has she always been this way, or maybe has it just gotten worse?

I don't know much about the End Times stuff. I actually never heard about The Rapture until a few years ago! (I had 12 years of Catholic HS and have a degree from a Jesuit Univ., I guess we never covered it!)

I want to say, be patient, love her, and let it go in one ear and out the other, but honestly, I don't know....

Thanks for posting, though. This has been such a good thread.
Wrose, you doubtless didn't cover it because it is more of an evangelical thing. The rapture is not even mentioned in Revelation. It's a construct someone made up. At Marquette, we did liberation theology
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:57 AM   #4432
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Wow, tough situation. I agree with Sophie that you may have to be a pest in order to discuss things that must be taken care of. This is really a great avoidance technique on your mother's part if these plans are something she doesn't want to acknowledge(sp???). The other possibility is that as an older person she really wants to believe that this stuff is *proof* of the end times because that would also be *proof* of god and an afterlife....
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:58 AM   #4433
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The End of the World (or rising gas prices)

I’ve been the dreaded lurker on this thread for quite awhile. I’ve read a great deal of the posts but not every single one so if this topic has been covered, please forgive me.

My 81 y/o mother is driving me CRAZY. Every natural disaster, hike in gas prices, political change, etc., is a sign of the ‘end times’ according to her. She’s always telling me we have to be ‘ready’. Any mention of plans for the future are met with – ‘we won’t have to worry about that’. More than once I’ve replied ‘great, I’ll quit my job, stop paying my bills and enjoy what time is left’. That brings utter panic on her part – ‘oh no, you can’t do that’. She has no faith in her faith. She is not out doing good works and leading by example. She sits in her house scared to death of EVERYTHING.

Yes she’s old, and I don’t want to upset her, but that shouldn’t give her a free pass to cause fear in my life. How do I deal with her???
At your mothers age, I doubt you're going to be able to change her thinking on this. The only thing you can say (besides that people have been predicting the end times since Christ himself did) is "mom nobody knows for sure and I have to take care of myself the best I am able."

I guess the other thing would be to take her for a physical and get her some anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds?

I feel for you. Good luck.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:16 AM   #4434
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Vonnie, you didn't say if your mother has always been like this. Does she belong to one of those churches that goes in for the rapture theory?

At 81, big changes in attitudes can be a sign of a decline in mental abilities. My 91 year old mother started changing about 4 years ago (not rapture I am happy to say). Still, when you have known a certain person all your life and suddenly they are fixated on something that seems out of character for them, you need to consider possible medical answers. Attention to early changes in behavior could prevent a stroke.
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Old 05-25-2009, 06:49 AM   #4435
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Vonnie, I too face this with my mother who is 89. She is constantly talking about end times, rapture and like your mom she uses it for avoidance purposes, particularly when talking about future plans that are tough or unpleasant, she is quite happy to talk about future plans when happy things. She has always been like this. She used to drag me to hear some fellow who wrote a book called "The late great planet Earth" back in the late 70's.

I don't think at their age you can change people, indeed changeing people at any age is a tricky proposition. I think patience, getting a checkup, and gently but firmly talking about some tough issues that have to be talked about like families and wills are the only tools available. I will be thinking about you during this difficult time. It is hard as our parents age. So very many challenges.

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Old 05-25-2009, 08:25 AM   #4436
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I remember in the early 60's (maybe late 50's) that everyone was talking about the end of the word coming on a certain date. Going to a Catholic school at the time the nuns would have beaten us silly if we would have talked about it at school but everyone, including adults, had the date circled on the calendar. My girlfriend was over at my house when we were talking about it and she went home and told her mother. Her mother called and was furious that we scared her child.

Well the date came and went; no end of the world; no rapture and life went on. I don't know what to tell an 80 something mother who is worried about the end of times. If she is a believer, I would tell her she doesn’t need to worry about minor life events. Gas prices and presidential races have happened forever and will continue forever. I know this is better said than done but I also have an 84 y/o mother who is a little similar. She knows I think the Rapture is nonsense, but I let her talk about it.

But I agree with a few others that as far as I know, this rapture thing is more from the Fundamentals than anything. If your mother is a believer, I found this:

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissart5.htm

You cannot prepare for the end of the world by observing world events and using them to interpret the Bible (Matt. 24:4-6). Instead, regularly read Revelation and keep in mind the important Gospel message of this final book of the Bible: that God will give you all the strength you need to overcome all difficulties of this life; and that your heavenly Father will prepare you for that day when Jesus will return to wipe away all tears and make all things new! (Rev. 21:1-7).

I don’t usually send people to the Bible, but if this comforts her, so be it. If she is worried about dying now, maybe this will help. I personally don't believe in any of the End of World stuff. I would just try and comfort her by telling her that she has lived a good life, she will be fine and so will you.

Take a deep breath like I do when this kind of talking starts and then and try and let it go when you hang up the phone of leave her house.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:47 AM   #4437
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Dang Wrose! I bet the college degree was a breeze after all that! (raspberry blowing smiley here)

(This is the first time I've poked my head in this thread and have only read this last page, sorry for the rude entrance! LOL!)
You goof! Can I say it was very late???


Thanks everyone, for jumping in. I had a feeling some of you would have some good advice.
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:19 PM   #4438
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She’s always been really religious. She was raised Pentecostal – tent revivals and all. And she’s never had any tolerance for any other religion or belief. I grew up in a very small town w/ only one church – Methodist. We went every Sunday but she always said how sorry she felt for ‘those people’. I stopped going when I was about 13 and realized she wouldn’t physically drag me out of bed. My niece converted to Catholicism when she was in her early 20’s – my mom acted like it was some vile act that had been done to hurt her. She (my mom) was going to a small church until it closed a few years ago. But she's never gone to one that actively preached the rapture. I think it comes from the way she was raised and she's never questioned it.

We lost my dad about 12 years ago, and she was still pretty ‘normal’ then. It was when we lost my sister about 10 years ago that I really started to notice how extreme she’d become. Then again I really wasn’t around all that much except for holidays. After my sister died I moved within walking distance of my mom. Didn’t really want to, but felt that I had to. I take her grocery shopping (she stopped driving a few years ago) when she wants to and to the doctor and that’s it. We don’t just hang out. You can’t even watch TV with her because everything offends her. She thinks Lifetime movies are porn. She watches the news and religious shows and that’s literally it. I’ve told her that she could do some volunteer work – heck, she could read her bible to people in nursing homes. But she won’t do anything. Just sits in her house and waits for the Lord to take her ‘home’.

So this morning I took her shopping. We were walking across the parking lot and passed a large group of Amish people getting out of a van. I didn’t realize she had stopped until she called out to me – ‘aren’t those the people that let the men marry the young girls and have all those kids?’ I wanted to dig a whole and crawl in it. Seriously, who says stuff like that? I literally drug her to the car and told her she can’t say things like that in public. She said she was just asking a question and that didn’t hurt anything. And besides, ‘what they’re doing isn’t right and they should read the bible’.

Obviously I don’t enjoy being around her and alternate between guilt and resentment. I know I’m never going to change her views but I certainly want no part of her ‘religion’. While typing this I remembered something my dad said to me years ago – that he couldn’t compete with God. Now I understand what he meant. How sad for him that my mom made him feel that way.
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:44 PM   #4439
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She’s always been really religious. She was raised Pentecostal – tent revivals and all. And she’s never had any tolerance for any other religion or belief. I grew up in a very small town w/ only one church – Methodist. We went every Sunday but she always said how sorry she felt for ‘those people’. I stopped going when I was about 13 and realized she wouldn’t physically drag me out of bed. My niece converted to Catholicism when she was in her early 20’s – my mom acted like it was some vile act that had been done to hurt her. She (my mom) was going to a small church until it closed a few years ago. But she's never gone to one that actively preached the rapture. I think it comes from the way she was raised and she's never questioned it.

We lost my dad about 12 years ago, and she was still pretty ‘normal’ then. It was when we lost my sister about 10 years ago that I really started to notice how extreme she’d become. Then again I really wasn’t around all that much except for holidays. After my sister died I moved within walking distance of my mom. Didn’t really want to, but felt that I had to. I take her grocery shopping (she stopped driving a few years ago) when she wants to and to the doctor and that’s it. We don’t just hang out. You can’t even watch TV with her because everything offends her. She thinks Lifetime movies are porn. She watches the news and religious shows and that’s literally it. I’ve told her that she could do some volunteer work – heck, she could read her bible to people in nursing homes. But she won’t do anything. Just sits in her house and waits for the Lord to take her ‘home’.

So this morning I took her shopping. We were walking across the parking lot and passed a large group of Amish people getting out of a van. I didn’t realize she had stopped until she called out to me – ‘aren’t those the people that let the men marry the young girls and have all those kids?’ I wanted to dig a whole and crawl in it. Seriously, who says stuff like that? I literally drug her to the car and told her she can’t say things like that in public. She said she was just asking a question and that didn’t hurt anything. And besides, ‘what they’re doing isn’t right and they should read the bible’.

Obviously I don’t enjoy being around her and alternate between guilt and resentment. I know I’m never going to change her views but I certainly want no part of her ‘religion’. While typing this I remembered something my dad said to me years ago – that he couldn’t compete with God. Now I understand what he meant. How sad for him that my mom made him feel that way.
Vannie,
First, I think we have the same mother. I take her grocery shopping and the DRs to out of guilt and I don't like being around hr. It isn't the god thing so much, she just is a miserable person who makes everyone else miserable who have to be near her. My dad too. He had been gone for about 10 years and probably looked forward to dying than being with her.

My mother also says very outrageous things at people and is very racist. What do we do? I don't know. I also tell her that she can't say the things she says, but she doesn’t care. Now I do understand your mother's religious slant. Very, very out of touch with the main stream and I think as they get older it probably gets worse.

I think some religions can make one ‘nutty” – if you’ll excuse the term. My grandmother (father’s side) was constantly saying the rosary, throwing Holy water around and praying too. She would say too that she wanted to be taken up to heaven. And where does one get holy water anyway. I am surprised she didn’t drown someone toward the end. She was very mean too.

Hang in there.
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Old 05-25-2009, 03:17 PM   #4440
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The God Delusion is AWESOME!! I like all of Dawkin's works. But, this was just the Holy Grail of rationality. If you haven't read it yet, you would probably also enjoy Sam Harris', Letters to a Christian Nation.

If I get a chance, I'll grab some passages from "Letters" for a discussion.
"God is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens is also excellent reading.

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