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Old 10-24-2008, 04:59 PM   #4161
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Martha, I do appreciate ALL the details. I kind of got that he didn't talk to well-versed people either. That it wasn't his intention to do a documentary by learned people, more just see what the average person would say.

He has a point that there's been a lot of crazy stuff done through history in the name of religion!
Well, I'm glad you weren't bored, lol! People in the audience sure seemed to enjoy it.
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Old 10-24-2008, 07:29 PM   #4162
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Oh I haven't seen it yet! Ha ha ha, I meant I got that from what I've been reading and hearing!! That's why I appreciate the details!
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:45 AM   #4163
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Default great new quote IMO

I just read a great quote the other day and I thought of this forum right away because so many of us have to deal with others who have no desire to understand or respect our point of view. Sometimes even in this clearly labelled thread!
Anyway, the quote is from a new book called 'Irreligion' by John Allen Paulos. I can't claim to have read the book, only a review in a humanist magazine.

*I have certainly never learned how to fruitfully discuss religion with people who have beatific grins on their faces, strangely gleaming eyes, and an air of certitude about them and who respond to any logical point I make by saying that they pity me.* -John Allen Paulos
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:06 AM   #4164
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Hmm. I'm not sure how I feel about that quote. On the one hand, having worked for a fundamentalist christian business, I get the part aboutthe air of certitude and beatific grins. On the other hand, that type of quote is exactly why so many people are turned off by some of the big name atheists: even people who are not fundie and might be more amenable to a discussion.

Usually I feel very angry about the fundies and would applaud this quote, I guess today I'm feeling a little more mellow. Could it be because the fundie folks are going to go to bed disappointed Tuesday night?
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:33 AM   #4165
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I just saw Religulous last night! You all must go see this movie. When I wasn't shaking my head it utter disbelief I was dying of laughter at the humor and joy of watching truly stupid people. I think Bill Maher really did great job of getting people to speak their true beliefs and letting the rest of us know how nuts they are. I think I need to watch it again.
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:38 PM   #4166
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I know that one of the complaints by religious people was that he didn't ask anyone who was really informed, like priests or ministers or theologians, where he could have gotten real answers.

But I believe that was his whole point - to show that people follow even when they don't understand.
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:44 PM   #4167
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I know that one of the complaints by religious people was that he didn't ask anyone who was really informed, like priests or ministers or theologians, where he could have gotten real answers.

But I believe that was his whole point - to show that people follow even when they don't understand.


Exactly!

I haven't seen the movie yet but have been wanting to. I have always been a huge fan Bill Maher. I will try to see it soon because I have some free movie tickets...just need to find the time!
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:14 PM   #4168
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I know that one of the complaints by religious people was that he didn't ask anyone who was really informed, like priests or ministers or theologians, where he could have gotten real answers.

But I believe that was his whole point - to show that people follow even when they don't understand.
But the thing is he did speak to a Rabbi (way wacked out freak), Muslim leaders, preachers, a Monsignor and others who preach. They really scared the hell out of me! No pun intended! How can these people be so freaking out of touch with reality and logic I will never know. Now, I kinda like the leader of the Church of Cannibis he interviewed in Amsterdam. That guy was funny with out even trying and I don't even do the stuff!
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:39 PM   #4169
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But the thing is he did speak to a Rabbi (way wacked out freak), Muslim leaders, preachers, a Monsignor and others who preach. They really scared the hell out of me! No pun intended! How can these people be so freaking out of touch with reality and logic I will never know. Now, I kinda like the leader of the Church of Cannibis he interviewed in Amsterdam. That guy was funny with out even trying and I don't even do the stuff!
Oh!!!! Geez, well, I was only going by what I'd heard. I haven't seen it!

Crazy!!!!
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Old 11-08-2008, 04:33 PM   #4170
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So, I've had The God Delusion for almost a month now, and I'm having trouble getting through it. I was so excited when I got it, and even more excited after reading the epilogue. Now, I can't get past chapter 2. I think I got turned off by the theory of "The Poverty of Agnosticism". Dawkins makes agnosticism out to be wishy-washy, like we just can't commit to one camp. I feel that I am agnostic because I have doubt that there is a god, but I accept that there may be and I don't think that humans can know for sure; but mostly I disagree with major world religions. I don't think that this stance is wishy-washy at all, and I think that is tough for most people to admit that they don't know something. Any thoughts?
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:15 PM   #4171
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So, I've had The God Delusion for almost a month now, and I'm having trouble getting through it. I was so excited when I got it, and even more excited after reading the epilogue. Now, I can't get past chapter 2. I think I got turned off by the theory of "The Poverty of Agnosticism". Dawkins makes agnosticism out to be wishy-washy, like we just can't commit to one camp. I feel that I am agnostic because I have doubt that there is a god, but I accept that there may be and I don't think that humans can know for sure; but mostly I disagree with major world religions. I don't think that this stance is wishy-washy at all, and I think that is tough for most people to admit that they don't know something. Any thoughts?
I took a long time reading it. It took me a while to digest everything. I Know what you're saying. However, I actually call myself an agnostic cuz I wanted to be less confrontational with my family etc. but I really think I'm more of an atheist.

He does come on very strong and I found some of the science stuff a little hard to wade through, since I have no real background in science. He does cover all the bases though, so should someone ever question you about something, it's a good resource. For example, in another thread some one brought up Pascal's Wager, which is the idea of if I follow a Christian life and there's a god, then I'm safe when I die but if I follow a Christian life but there is no god then I'm still Ok cuz it doesn't matter. He takes that argument apart quite nicely.

I say take your time and keep reading. The arguments he presents are still good for arguing with religous types whether you're an atheist or an agnostic.
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:17 PM   #4172
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I feel that I am agnostic because I have doubt that there is a god, but I accept that there may be and I don't think that humans can know for sure; but mostly I disagree with major world religions.

Haven't read the book but totally understand your statement (above). You are not alone! I'm OK if there is a god, as long as he/she/it is nothing like the god portrayed by the churches I have attended (southern born and bred).
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:17 PM   #4173
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Dawkins can be confrontational too! He has such a strong science background; I got some of his other books out and had to take a nap after every page. LOL

Kidding aside, I do know what you mean. I don't see how one can ever know for sure, either. I know that when I try to think, Well, maybe there is, and then I try to quantify it, I can't. It's just so not logical. I can't make any sense of it. I can see how intelligent and educated men in the past would consider themselves Deists - I believe that's the belief that a God created everything but has nothing more to do with it. But what kind of God is that? Certainly not one that cares if it's worshipped.... then I go into my spiral of denial again. LOL

If you KNOW you are anti-religion, try "god is not great; How religion poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens. I found a lot of that very interesting.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:57 AM   #4174
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I call myself Agnostic, too - if someone needs a label, but "non-religious" is more accurate.
I was brought up without religion - the first religious talk I ever heard was when I was a teenager!

So for me - I don't care enough about religion or what god people believe in, etc etc to label myself on one extreme or the other. For me - Agnostic means "non-religious"..... I don't know if there is supreme being, and I don't particularly have interest in worrying about it or developing a firm stance on the subject.

To the religious person - this is maybe seen as arrogant, misguided, blasphemous and even dangerous?
To the atheist - maybe seen as lazy, "safe" or uninformed?


But I really don't care what anyone else thinks of my beliefs! I'm a really content, happy person with my life just the way it is.

I have not read Dawkins books - or any books on religion (including the Bible) because frankly - they are too far down on my reading priority list.
I do find it very,very interesting how religion effects the world and its inhabitants - but I guess I'm more of a live and let live person.

Whatever YOU choose to believe is fine with me as long as you aren't judging me, condemning me, or hurting others to support your belief system.
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:23 PM   #4175
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I've been rereading some of God Delusion. I finally put together why the fundamentalists can't deal with evolution. Some of you may be smarter than I and knew all this but I didn't have the final piece. In my science defiicient brain, I understood that evolution provided an alternate view of how the earth was formed and populated. I didn't understand the importance of species etc. starting out simply and becoming more complex gradually over time.

It finally hit me that complex things being achieved from simpler things negates the whole creationist premise of complex things must come from an even complex thing/being/god. ie. no need for god. Thus all the outrage over evolution. Duh!

Any way, I had to share. I know some people aren't interested in the whole Christians trying to justify themselves thing but having been raised with apologetics, I need to be able to refute all that stuff. Good Night
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:02 AM   #4176
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Martha - thank you for sharing. I keep trying to read that book and never get more than a few paragraphs before I am lost. So sharing any insights you get from reading is much appreciated
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:39 AM   #4177
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Glad it helped in some way. I just never completely got the whole "irreducible complexity" thing.
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:48 AM   #4178
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Glad it helped in some way. I just never completely got the whole "irreducible complexity" thing.
I don't understand why people think humans were around when the dinosaurs were...so if you figure that one out, let me know
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:22 AM   #4179
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Smile I'm not a paleontologist....

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I don't understand why people think humans were around when the dinosaurs were...so if you figure that one out, let me know
.....but I think they have to picture it that way, since they believe the earth is only 7 or 8 thousand years old. god started everything up at the same time and eventually the dinos became extinct but people continued. You'll notice in these creationist museums that have sprung up that the humans that are pictured look pretty much like modern humans. We don't see the earliest humans or the cro-magnons. That's my take.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:21 PM   #4180
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Hi everyone, been away for awhile!
I find it ironic that so many Christians feel so threatened by evolutionary theory. Many other areas of science are just as "threatening" as evolution such as astronomy, genetics, astrophysics, etc.

I think they latch onto evolution because they perceive it to be the weakest in evidence. It really isn't. There are enormous amounts of evidence of mutational changes, intermediary links etc. They just go into denial mode and insist that it is all guess work without actually learning about it and seeing what is really out there. I have no problem with that but as soon as they start insisting that we "teach the controversy", it gets my dander up. There is no controversy. Any controversy exists only in their mind. Most don't even understand the difference between abiogenesis (beginning of life) and evolution (changes and adaptation brought about by mutation).

They seem to have no problem using the medicines and surgical techniques developed by our understanding of these sciences, however. My thinking is, if the bible is so accurate for explaining our natural world then we should still treat leprosy with bird blood (Leviticus) instead of antibiotics.

Do you have issues with evolution being taught in your area high schools? This, to me, is one of the biggest threats with religion trying to expand beyond the church. Gov. Palin scared the crap out of me with her views of "teaching the controversy". Nothing will dumb down our kids more than the battle over science in the classroom.
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:49 PM   #4181
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There's obviously been too much talk of Christians on this page, because there's a banner ad here for Social Networking for followers of the Christian Faith! LOL



Anyway. Well, I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and learned science and biology and astronomy and evolution!!! Fancy that. They had no problem with God and evolution co-existing. And if I believed in God, I would also have no problem with that. I was taught that the bible wasn't a science book, but was to teach us how to be good people. The creation story was a myth to explain things in terms man could understand. I didn't really even know that anyone took it literally for many years!

I also was not taught that the bible was a history book. Sure it has some history in it, but to be used as a definitive book? No. We had "history books" for that.

I think I've read that the fundamental movement is only about 150 years old.

Whenever anyone says creationism should be taught in schools, I say okay, it can be taught in classes about world religions.

Or else I ask, Which creation story are you going to teach? Just the Christian one?
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Old 11-16-2008, 04:53 AM   #4182
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There's obviously been too much talk of Christians on this page, because there's a banner ad here for Social Networking for followers of the Christian Faith! LOL



Anyway. Well, I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and learned science and biology and astronomy and evolution!!! Fancy that. They had no problem with God and evolution co-existing. And if I believed in God, I would also have no problem with that. I was taught that the bible wasn't a science book, but was to teach us how to be good people. The creation story was a myth to explain things in terms man could understand. I didn't really even know that anyone took it literally for many years!

I also was not taught that the bible was a history book. Sure it has some history in it, but to be used as a definitive book? No. We had "history books" for that.

I think I've read that the fundamental movement is only about 150 years old.

Whenever anyone says creationism should be taught in schools, I say okay, it can be taught in classes about world religions.

Or else I ask, Which creation story are you going to teach? Just the Christian one?
Good Point Wrose~
But I fear the answer would be... "OF COURSE.... there IS not other."

I actually remember the first time I heard that someone believed the Bible was actually "Truth" and "all your answers could be found there"....
I thought they were kidding!
I was astonished and still can get caught off guard by some of the things I hear modern-day religious people believe in.

Oh - and I agree Patty- Palin's mix of religion and politics scared the crap out of me, too. WHOA.
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Old 11-16-2008, 05:34 AM   #4183
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Don't forget there are 2 creation stories in the bible. Which one are we supposed to believe?

.....The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.


The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not..... Source is here

The 2nd one has the infallible god creating man before there's anything for him to eat. And of course the fundamentalists like the 2nd version because woman was created from man and so was intended to be less than the man.

I had to go look this up for my own edification.

Good questions Wrose! I will try to remember those.
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Old 11-16-2008, 05:35 AM   #4184
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I can't help but think this is just used as a wedge issue. No one has any real interest in producing proof ..... because they can't.
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Old 11-16-2008, 05:38 PM   #4185
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I read the bit, yesterday, about the arguments for god's existence, and specifically the part where "the scripture says so". The whole section was very interesting; the position was basically how could that be an argument? But I really got the part about the Christmas story. Dawkins says that the only two gospels that address the story contradict each other in many areas including how/why Mary and Joseph got to Bethlehem, and that the foundations of the story (virgin birth, worshipped by kings, star in the east) were all added from existing religions to make Christianity more palatable to the pagans they were trying to convert. So interesting!
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Old 11-16-2008, 06:00 PM   #4186
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I have a question, and I am really, really wanting an answer. Some time ago, a Christian posted here (post 4095)that we needed to read our bibles because the answers are all there. We were discussing that if there is a god he/she/it is incredibly cruel, and why would a loving god allow things like the holocaust. She referenced Jews' disbelief in Jesus as the messiah. Was she saying that the Christian God visits horrors (or at least allows them) on non-believers because they don't believe? Is this a common belief, in your experiences, among Christians? I had never heard this view, and since I really like to know how people think, I want to know if she was representative of the masses or just spouting off. Thanks in advance for any insight you might have!
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:56 PM   #4187
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I have a question, and I am really, really wanting an answer. Some time ago, a Christian posted here (post 4095)that we needed to read our bibles because the answers are all there. We were discussing that if there is a god he/she/it is incredibly cruel, and why would a loving god allow things like the holocaust. She referenced Jews' disbelief in Jesus as the messiah. Was she saying that the Christian God visits horrors (or at least allows them) on non-believers because they don't believe? Is this a common belief, in your experiences, among Christians? I had never heard this view, and since I really like to know how people think, I want to know if she was representative of the masses or just spouting off. Thanks in advance for any insight you might have!
I think some people do believe in that kind of God.

Most of the Christians that I know in real life are reasonable and good people. They tend to feel that we can't know why things happen, or how our soul is to be tested. I think their faith leaves them believing that God must have his reasons.

I tended to see God as more of a hands-off kind of dude as time went on. I couldn't imagine a loving God "allowing" some things, so the only thing that makes sense is that he didn't interfere in the natural order of things. Exceptions to that would be miracles.

Obviously once you swallow the first belief, it's easy to build up a house of cards around it. I'm sort of skimming the topic here.....

I could see how Deists could accept a God who created the world and then stepped back. (I think that's the Deists.)

Anyway, I don't know how many Christians believe that God would send the holocaust to the Jews for their disbelief. I would hope not too many. I know there's a lot of hatred by a few Christian groups toward gays - like Fred Phelps Godhatesfags website. Phelps is full of hate.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:58 PM   #4188
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Martha, I wanted to mention that my DH often mentions the two creation stories when that subject comes up.

DH does believe in God, but is absolutely not at all religious. He just doesn't talk about it much either. His parents never went to church that I know of, except for weddings, funerals and baptism. DH and I got married in an Air Force chapel in Atlanta, because DH's father is retired AF. DH said he kind of got a Sunday school Air Force Protestant upbringing.
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Old 11-16-2008, 11:00 PM   #4189
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I can't help but think this is just used as a wedge issue. No one has any real interest in producing proof ..... because they can't.
Yes it is.

In fact, I generally like to ask why they even want to pretend to "prove" it - because the essence of their salvation is Faith. Remember doubting Thomas? Faith is a "gift" and is important and necessary and if they could "prove" it, nobody would need faith.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:44 AM   #4190
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I have a question, and I am really, really wanting an answer. Some time ago, a Christian posted here (post 4095)that we needed to read our bibles because the answers are all there. We were discussing that if there is a god he/she/it is incredibly cruel, and why would a loving god allow things like the holocaust. She referenced Jews' disbelief in Jesus as the messiah. Was she saying that the Christian God visits horrors (or at least allows them) on non-believers because they don't believe? Is this a common belief, in your experiences, among Christians? I had never heard this view, and since I really like to know how people think, I want to know if she was representative of the masses or just spouting off. Thanks in advance for any insight you might have!
I've never (and never will) understand any person who believes or worships a God they believe would be so hateful as to bring such horror down on anyone.... i.e. The Holocasut, AIDS, etc

Takes a special kind of hatred inside to be willing to accept a "higher being" like that.

I agree with Wrose - most of the very-religious people I know are loving, nice people. I think the haters are definitely in the minority.


I still don't understand the idea of "The Bible Having All The Answers.." and find it perplexing (sometimes amusing) how different interpretations of the same passages and wording can yield such different beliefs and ideas.
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:46 AM   #4191
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I've never (and never will) understand any person who believes or worships a God they believe would be so hateful as to bring such horror down on anyone.... i.e. The Holocasut, AIDS, etc

Takes a special kind of hatred inside to be willing to accept a "higher being" like that.

I agree with Wrose - most of the very-religious people I know are loving, nice people. I think the haters are definitely in the minority.


I still don't understand the idea of "The Bible Having All The Answers.." and find it perplexing (sometimes amusing) how different interpretations of the same passages and wording can yield such different beliefs and ideas.
I agree with you and Kathy that most Believers in God would not think that God would do a horrible thing like the Holocaust. But remember when Katrina hit and there were a few preachers who came right out and said that God hit New Orleans with this because of their lifestyle - like on Bourbon Street. The only thing wrong with this is that it hit a whole lot more places than NO. Plus it was the poor who were most affected.

Nature happens for reasons other than a Godly force. Look at the hurricanes and how it kills poor people in the Islands (like Haiti). They did nothing wrong and actually they do believe in some form of God.

As for the Bible having all the answers, I think it is comforting to many in that they can read into passages something that may answer a question for them and not necessarily the same place for another. The Bible says a lot of things and I think if one is looking for an answer, they can find a passage that they think is the answer.
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Old 11-24-2008, 03:47 AM   #4192
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Here's a funny card a friend pointed out to me:
http://dirtyshankcardchallenges.blog...164-bible.html
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:49 PM   #4193
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How is everyone??

Our new library opened, and I've picked up a couple books to read. Barely started on "Religious Literacy - what every American needs to know - and doesn't." By Stephen Prothero.

Just the intro was amazing. He was talking about a discussion with a co-worker from Austria, where people can name the five major world religions and all the main beliefs of them, but actual church membership/attendance is very low. This contrasted with studies in the US that show how few people can name the major world religions, don't know the tenets of them, and can't even recite the ten commandments, or who wrote the four gospels - yet church attendance/membership is sky high. Basically, tons of people are following blindly.

I'm interested to read the book, because he's arguing for religious education in our schools, but NOT for the usual reasons one thinks of in this country.

I have a friend who is an atheist and home schools because she feels the public schools are "too Christian." In other words, the teaching they get is very European centered, with emphasis on one world religion over others.

She taught her children in depth about Hinduism, Buddhism, they studied Egypt and their beliefs in great depth, then about Islam, and finally got to Europe and Judeo-Christian beliefs, which she taught as "another World Culture/Religion." So they have the knowledge, and if they choose one day, that's fine with her.

She's definitely not overt about her beliefs, we'd been friends for at least a year before I discovered she was an atheist.
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Old 03-08-2009, 01:51 PM   #4194
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Thanks for bumping this back up, Wrose. I was going to go looking for it, but got sidetracked with other things.

For me, nothing has changed in regards to how I feel about religion. DH still doesn't know, and I'm keeping it to myself on the advice of a wise woman here on SCS.

So far I have.
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Old 03-08-2009, 02:21 PM   #4195
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Thanks for bumping this back up, Wrose. I was going to go looking for it, but got sidetracked with other things.

For me, nothing has changed in regards to how I feel about religion. DH still doesn't know, and I'm keeping it to myself on the advice of a wise woman here on SCS.

So far I have.
I have to say that my mom and sister, who are the only ones still going to mass most of the time, have been very turned off by the way the Catholic Church has been going. They were not pleased that, during the election, they were pretty much outright told that voting for someone who was pro-choice was grounds for not taking communion. My mom has said that while she is not pro-choice, it wasn't the ONLY factor in her decision, and other factors weighed more heavily on her.

Here's one article about recent events in their Diocese:

http://www.timesleader.com/news/Bish...3-04-2009.html

And the pope recently reinstated a Bishop (Bishop Richard Williamson) who believes the holocaust is a myth.

Also recently, a 9 year old girl was raped in Brazil (stepfather) and got pregnant with twins. The doctors, mother and everyone involved with her getting an abortion were excommunicated. (The stepfather is in jail now.) Abortion is illegal in Brazil except in cases of rape and when the motherís life would be endangered by giving birth. The doctors said the child's womb was so small, having one baby would endanger her life, let alone two.

The Vatican has defended the excommunications.

I can't speak much about other religions, as Catholicism is the only one I really know much about.
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:04 PM   #4196
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I have to say that my mom and sister, who are the only ones still going to mass most of the time, have been very turned off by the way the Catholic Church has been going. They were not pleased that, during the election, they were pretty much outright told that voting for someone who was pro-choice was grounds for not taking communion. My mom has said that while she is not pro-choice, it wasn't the ONLY factor in her decision, and other factors weighed more heavily on her.

Here's one article about recent events in their Diocese:

http://www.timesleader.com/news/Bish...3-04-2009.html

And the pope recently reinstated a Bishop (Bishop Richard Williamson) who believes the holocaust is a myth.

Also recently, a 9 year old girl was raped in Brazil (stepfather) and got pregnant with twins. The doctors, mother and everyone involved with her getting an abortion were excommunicated. (The stepfather is in jail now.) Abortion is illegal in Brazil except in cases of rape and when the motherís life would be endangered by giving birth. The doctors said the child's womb was so small, having one baby would endanger her life, let alone two.

The Vatican has defended the excommunications.

I can't speak much about other religions, as Catholicism is the only one I really know much about.
Having been a Catholic, I find the New Pope to be a major disappointment for the Catholic Church. Just the 2 bolded parts above anger me greatly. I think that a Pope or 2 worked very hard with their fellow Jews to come to some sort of peace regarding the Vatican hiding Nazis during/after the war. Then along comes Pope Benedict and he decides that the Bishop's remarks are not that important.

I wrote in CE about the 9 y/o and her family. What a slap in the face for that probably religious family in Brazil who may have saved the life of their daughter. There has to be a medical clause one would think, but nope. Let's just let the mother (child) die. Infuriating.

I am also guilty of not knowing much about other religions too. I need to start reading again.
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:25 PM   #4197
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Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose View Post
I have to say that my mom and sister, who are the only ones still going to mass most of the time, have been very turned off by the way the Catholic Church has been going. They were not pleased that, during the election, they were pretty much outright told that voting for someone who was pro-choice was grounds for not taking communion. My mom has said that while she is not pro-choice, it wasn't the ONLY factor in her decision, and other factors weighed more heavily on her.

Here's one article about recent events in their Diocese:

http://www.timesleader.com/news/Bish...3-04-2009.html

And the pope recently reinstated a Bishop (Bishop Richard Williamson) who believes the holocaust is a myth.

Also recently, a 9 year old girl was raped in Brazil (stepfather) and got pregnant with twins. The doctors, mother and everyone involved with her getting an abortion were excommunicated. (The stepfather is in jail now.) Abortion is illegal in Brazil except in cases of rape and when the motherís life would be endangered by giving birth. The doctors said the child's womb was so small, having one baby would endanger her life, let alone two.

The Vatican has defended the excommunications.

I can't speak much about other religions, as Catholicism is the only one I really know much about.
Hi everybody,

I considered posting about those two items, but they make me really mad and I didn't want to go on a rant. Side question - Doesn't it make JPII fallible if Benedict reverses an excommunication? These old guys really have a death grip around power in the church and they aren't going to share any or revise any. They don't seem to care that so many people (at least Americans) leave the Catholic church over these issues. My friend tells me the Lutheran churches are full of recovering Catholics.

The book you mentioned earlier sounds interesting. Another one to add to my reading list.

Sassy, it makes me sad when I hear of people not telling other people who they really are because they don't want to upset the family. Of course, I say that as someone who didn't really open up to my family for years about my own evolution.
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:34 PM   #4198
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Hi everybody,

I considered posting about those two items, but they make me really mad and I didn't want to go on a rant. Side question - Doesn't it make JPII fallible if Benedict reverses an excommunication? These old guys really have a death grip around power in the church and they aren't going to share any or revise any. They don't seem to care that so many people (at least Americans) leave the Catholic church over these issues. My friend tells me the Lutheran churches are full of recovering Catholics.

The book you mentioned earlier sounds interesting. Another one to add to my reading list.

Sassy, it makes me sad when I hear of people not telling other people who they really are because they don't want to upset the family. Of course, I say that as someone who didn't really open up to my family for years about my own evolution.
Martha, I think he probably has a good idea. Me not going to church hardly ever for the last few years is a good indicator, as well as comments I've made. (Wow, that's grammatically incorrect, but I'm too lazy to fix it. )

So, he "knows" even though I haven't come right out and told him I'm agnostic.
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:38 PM   #4199
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Hi everybody,

I considered posting about those two items, but they make me really mad and I didn't want to go on a rant. Side question - Doesn't it make JPII fallible if Benedict reverses an excommunication? These old guys really have a death grip around power in the church and they aren't going to share any or revise any. They don't seem to care that so many people (at least Americans) leave the Catholic church over these issues. My friend tells me the Lutheran churches are full of recovering Catholics.

The book you mentioned earlier sounds interesting. Another one to add to my reading list.

Sassy, it makes me sad when I hear of people not telling other people who they really are because they don't want to upset the family. Of course, I say that as someone who didn't really open up to my family for years about my own evolution.
No, the infallibility issue ONLY pertains to statements made "ex Cathedra" - these are generally matters of dogma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

If you google ex Cathedra, you can find more info.
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:43 PM   #4200
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About not telling - earlier in this thread, I talked about a book I'd read, which was basically a non-scientific presentation of results of surveys.

A LOT of people don't tell. Some who do have been cut out of wills, outcast from families, have no friends. Atheists that are open about it have their cars keyed, and crap tossed at them from passing cars.
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