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Old 09-24-2008, 03:58 PM   #4001
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All I can think is they must not understand, are not educated about the issue. But that is me wanting to believe the best in people. Truth is, I doubt that most want to understand, since they are so secure in their absolutism and intolerance. Sophie, you may not have been surprised by your coworker's view, but I am. Even other sects of Christianity being "satan-worshippers" is just appalling to me! As far as A/As--wouldn't I have to believe in Satan to worship him?!
I think that they think they DO understand, and we are the ones not understanding. Unfortunately, I think it will always be like that.

The fact that you were surprised by her view shows that maybe you've not been around many people with similar beliefs (similar to my co-worker's), and for that, I envy you!

And as for having to believe in Satan before being able to worship him, I know that my mom agrees with my co-worker (they don't know each other) in that anyone NOT worshipping God (in the "right" way) is automatically worshipping Satan. Black and white. No shades of grey.
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:15 PM   #4002
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I'm sure it's not that I don't know people who believe that way (I do live in the Bible Belt) but I don't have these conversations with people I am not really comfortable with because it is just so upsetting and confusing to me. I'm just so a gray person. I almost don't see anything in Black and White. I know this is a sensitive topic for you, but if your Mom thinks all non-believers are satan-worshippers, how does she reconcile that with you and your brother being non-christian?
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:33 PM   #4003
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Sophie is going to Hell haven't you heard?


I wonder if my grandma is concerned for all of her kids and grandkids that aren't in the least religious. She doesn't seem to be.
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:35 PM   #4004
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I just finished a good book about an ME and the guy that runs the Body Farm. The character taught forensic anthropology and it had some great quotes in there that are exactly what I think regarding evolution vs. creationism. I'll have to scan thru it again and pick them out.
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:36 PM   #4005
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Okay, I know we've had this discussion before, but it bit me again. On NBC Nightly News they were interviewing residents of Galveston as they returned to their homes for the first time. They showed this older woman who has lived in her home for over 40 years, has no insurance, and only Social Security as income. Her one-story home was flooded to five feet and all of her possessions are covered in mold and "toxic mud". While fighting tears she said that she kept telling herself that god would take care of her. Then she said that she guesses he still will, but she doesn't understand why this had to happen.

Again, all I could think about is how can they believe in a being that would purposely have these kinds things happen to (presumably) good, innocent people??!!! And how can one justify this belief when this woman's home and history are destroyed with no hope of rebuilding, while other people in the same community have virtually no damage at all? What makes one family worthy of having their home saved, while others "deserve" to lose everything! I really want to understand how this type of thinking is possible, because I am so unable to accept it!
That's why it's called "faith."

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Old 09-24-2008, 04:48 PM   #4006
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That's why it's called "faith."

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I almost said that exact thing in my previous post!!!!!!!
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:52 PM   #4007
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Sophie is going to Hell haven't you heard?
Since I subscribe to this thread, I clearly don't think she is! My curiosity is how her mother deals. I converted my mom to heathenism, and DH's rents are modern Americans with a generic faith, but no church, so we don't have family/religion issues. So I guess my question is does, Mom think Sophie and brother are satan-worshippers?
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:58 PM   #4008
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Since I subscribe to this thread, I clearly don't think she is! My curiosity is how her mother deals. I converted my mom to heathenism, and DH's rents are modern Americans with a generic faith, but no church, so we don't have family/religion issues. So I guess my question is does, Mom think Sophie and brother are satan-worshippers?
I recall her saying something about it once in regards to her walls being painted black. But I won't answer for her since I clearly don't know.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:03 PM   #4009
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I recall her saying something about it once in regards to her walls being painted black. But I won't answer for her since I clearly don't know.
You're just talking to wrack up posts!
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:44 PM   #4010
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You're just talking to wrack up posts!
Who me? Nah that would never happen.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:45 PM   #4011
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Never I say.
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Old 09-24-2008, 05:56 PM   #4012
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Never I say.
Fifteen

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Old 09-25-2008, 02:23 AM   #4013
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Hi Barb!

*grin* Yeah, my mom thinks both my brother and I are Satan worshippers. My brother by default (his walls are white), and me actively, because (Victoria is correct) my interiour walls are black (most of them anyway). My mom deals with it by praying and by preaching at us whenever she can. She does believe that both of us are going to hell, unless we get saved. I don't see that happening anytime soon (us getting saved). I doubt that she can understand the depth of my disgust and revulsion for her particular religious views, especially the anti-gay one. My disgust towards the Bible (MY interpretation of the Bible) increases every time she preaches at me.

My brother feels bad for my mom, but I keep telling him that her own happiness is her own responsibility. Too bad if she chooses to base that on what her offspring do and don't believe.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:34 AM   #4014
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You're just gonna hurt your brain trying to get answers to those questions. The one thing that is so frustrating about the religious/God argument is that it is soooo circular.
I saw the same TV piece & I agree as to the circular aspect stated above.

I recently watched several documentaries regarding the godess beliefs that were in place prior to the 1600's - they discussed the inquisition- the holocaust of women- some 8 million killed during the indoctrination period of the patriarical christianity movement. I am now intrigued & drawn to the godess phenomena - "mother" earth is upset with us & is unleashing fury- I do not think that anyone is selected per se & those who were spared in Galveston- odds & better building- that's all. I am curious as to anyone else who have thoughts about the godess aspects????
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:59 AM   #4015
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Okay, I know we've had this discussion before, but it bit me again. On NBC Nightly News they were interviewing residents of Galveston as they returned to their homes for the first time. They showed this older woman who has lived in her home for over 40 years, has no insurance, and only Social Security as income. Her one-story home was flooded to five feet and all of her possessions are covered in mold and "toxic mud". While fighting tears she said that she kept telling herself that god would take care of her. Then she said that she guesses he still will, but she doesn't understand why this had to happen.

Again, all I could think about is how can they believe in a being that would purposely have these kinds things happen to (presumably) good, innocent people??!!! And how can one justify this belief when this woman's home and history are destroyed with no hope of rebuilding, while other people in the same community have virtually no damage at all? What makes one family worthy of having their home saved, while others "deserve" to lose everything! I really want to understand how this type of thinking is possible, because I am so unable to accept it!

My husband and I watched the news as well and he just shook his head and said sarcastically, "It was God's will"!

I just don't understand how people can be logical and think this way?

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Old 09-25-2008, 07:00 AM   #4016
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I saw the same TV piece & I agree as to the circular aspect stated above.

I recently watched several documentaries regarding the godess beliefs that were in place prior to the 1600's - they discussed the inquisition- the holocaust of women- some 8 million killed during the indoctrination period of the patriarical christianity movement. I am now intrigued & drawn to the godess phenomena - "mother" earth is upset with us & is unleashing fury- I do not think that anyone is selected per se & those who were spared in Galveston- odds & better building- that's all. I am curious as to anyone else who have thoughts about the godess aspects????
People believe what they want. Attributing all manner of disasters/blessings to a god/goddess doesn't make it so. Goddess worship can be traced to prehistoric times when matters of birth and perpetration of the tribe/clan were still a matter of survival.

Nature is what it is and behaves according to the laws of physics (as understood by humans). Nature is impartial and doesn't care how many virgins are sacrificed to appease it or how many prayers are prayed.

Most goddess religions grew out of the observations of nature. Nature gives birth to new life each spring and feeds and nurtures humans through its workings. One can correlate that birth with the birth of humans, an act attributable only to females. Nurture--one of the main female roles. Feeding the family/tribe/community is another. These are a few of the reasons many choose to call Earth "Mother".

Nature is.

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Old 09-25-2008, 08:30 AM   #4017
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I saw the same TV piece & I agree as to the circular aspect stated above.

I recently watched several documentaries regarding the godess beliefs that were in place prior to the 1600's - they discussed the inquisition- the holocaust of women- some 8 million killed during the indoctrination period of the patriarical christianity movement. I am now intrigued & drawn to the godess phenomena - "mother" earth is upset with us & is unleashing fury- I do not think that anyone is selected per se & those who were spared in Galveston- odds & better building- that's all. I am curious as to anyone else who have thoughts about the godess aspects????
Read The Chalice and The Blade by Riane Ensler. Still considered a groundbreaking classic. I had no idea how pervasive goddess culture was and how it was ground out of existance by North European dominator cultures. There is another way besides patriarchy.
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:35 AM   #4018
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You don't mean to tell me you sometimes lurk in the christian threads, do you? I have avoided doing that. I think I would get too mad or depressed or something.

No No No No nononono.

The thread was actually in CE.... I tried quickly to find it with no luck - it was a while ago.
A lot of other atheist threads that were quite eye-opening there, too tho....
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:59 AM   #4019
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Hi Barb!

*grin* Yeah, my mom thinks both my brother and I are Satan worshippers. My brother by default (his walls are white), and me actively, because (Victoria is correct) my interiour walls are black (most of them anyway). My mom deals with it by praying and by preaching at us whenever she can. She does believe that both of us are going to hell, unless we get saved. I don't see that happening anytime soon (us getting saved). I doubt that she can understand the depth of my disgust and revulsion for her particular religious views, especially the anti-gay one. My disgust towards the Bible (MY interpretation of the Bible) increases every time she preaches at me.

My brother feels bad for my mom, but I keep telling him that her own happiness is her own responsibility. Too bad if she chooses to base that on what her offspring do and don't believe.
I have no repsone...I'm just sitting here, shaking my head! Is there an emoticon with it's mouth hanging open shaking its head?!!
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:03 AM   #4020
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Nature is what it is and behaves according to the laws of physics (as understood by humans). Nature is impartial and doesn't care how many virgins are sacrificed to appease it or how many prayers are prayed.

Nature is.

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Why is this so much harder to accept than a supremely intelligent being, choosing who wins and who loses? I'd rather believe that $hit just happens, and it happens to all people regardless, rather than having to follow sometimes arbitrary rules, and then $hit still happens!
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:33 AM   #4021
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No No No No nononono.

The thread was actually in CE.... I tried quickly to find it with no luck - it was a while ago.
A lot of other atheist threads that were quite eye-opening there, too tho....
Lol! OK. I'll have to do some searching...
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:35 AM   #4022
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Why is this so much harder to accept than a supremely intelligent being, choosing who wins and who loses? I'd rather believe that $hit just happens, and it happens to all people regardless, rather than having to follow sometimes arbitrary rules, and then $hit still happens!
If you've been hearing since you were born and most others spout it it's hard to wrap your head around a different reality-at least for some people.ie me!
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:42 AM   #4023
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http://www.splitcoaststampers.com/fo...d.php?t=353958

This was an interesting one.

I never did get a response to my question.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:02 AM   #4024
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http://www.splitcoaststampers.com/fo...d.php?t=353958

This was an interesting one.

I never did get a response to my question.
Well I must say that as I mentioned in my very first message on this site- there is no absolute on this issue- there is science - there is spirituality & no one can say with 100% certainity that anyone is absolute & right- we simply have our own opinions. When I stated as to godesses I felt the first response was telling me I am "wrong" to be interested. That sort of response certainly shuts down the feeling of freedom of speech. If this is truly open discussion then we need to phrase our speak to show respect that NO ONE can be certain of any of the ABSOLUTE answers.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:09 AM   #4025
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If you've been hearing since you were born and most others spout it it's hard to wrap your head around a different reality-at least for some people.ie me!
I kind of get the, always do what you've always done, ifeeling for others but I have a REALLY hard time with blind faith for myself. I trust myself, mind, intuition, etc. so much that I have a hard time with, "that's just how it is" when my mind says "why?" Hmmm babble much?
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:20 AM   #4026
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Well I must say that as I mentioned in my very first message on this site- there is no absolute on this issue- there is science - there is spirituality & no one can say with 100% certainity that anyone is absolute & right- we simply have our own opinions. When I stated as to godesses I felt the first response was telling me I am "wrong" to be interested. That sort of response certainly shuts down the feeling of freedom of speech. If this is truly open discussion then we need to phrase our speak to show respect that NO ONE can be certain of any of the ABSOLUTE answers.
Denise I think you might have me confused with someone else. My thread link was in response to Ireland I think. And I saw earlier that you responded to one of my posts saying you had seen the same thing on tv but I wasn't talking about tv. Or maybe I'm confused which is likely.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:25 AM   #4027
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I kind of get the, always do what you've always done, ifeeling for others but I have a REALLY hard time with blind faith for myself. I trust myself, mind, intuition, etc. so much that I have a hard time with, "that's just how it is" when my mind says "why?" Hmmm babble much?
I'm taking it you don't have work today? Heheheheheh

I actually find this thread a good one to babble about thoughts because I often find some one can better put into words what I am trying to.
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Old 09-25-2008, 01:32 PM   #4028
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I'm taking it you don't have work today? Heheheheheh

I actually find this thread a good one to babble about thoughts because I often find some one can better put into words what I am trying to.
Actually, I am a slacker and instead of using my planning time for planning, I was babbling. Course I had two and a half planning periods today, plus supervising after-school, so the planning got done too. So I'm not bad, I'm just a multi-tasker!
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Old 09-25-2008, 01:37 PM   #4029
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Denise, I have been fascinated by the Goddess issue, too, ever since I read The DaVinci Code. I didn't have an inkling that christianity erased goddess worship, just like they erased paganism and Greek/Roman Mythology, but it's interesting to me that we still study those Gods, but not Goddesses. Just another reason for me to be angry at (or skeptical of?) christianity.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:19 PM   #4030
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Denise, I have been fascinated by the Goddess issue, too, ever since I read The DaVinci Code. I didn't have an inkling that christianity erased goddess worship, just like they erased paganism and Greek/Roman Mythology, but it's interesting to me that we still study those Gods, but not Goddesses. Just another reason for me to be angry at (or skeptical of?) christianity.
Not all goddesses have been pushed into invisibility. Brigid is still honored in the form of Mary and Ostara is still honored in the form of Easter.

Back in the dark ages when I was in elementary school, we learned about the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses and some (very little) has stuck with me over time. Aphrodite, Diana (very popular in Stregheria--Italian witchcraft) and Venus are still "known" today. It took years before I started making connections between the "myths" of ancient Rome, Greece and Ireland and the "myths" of Christianity.

Someone mentioned The Chalice and the Blade as a source of information and I applaud the recommendation. Other sources are books on anthropology andthe works of Marija Gimbutas (scholarly and can be heavy).

I sincerely hope my post on goddesses was not the one referenced as "shutting down freedom of speech." The thrust of the post was meant to be a concise synopsis of goddess herstory as opposed to history.

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Old 09-26-2008, 05:25 AM   #4031
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Hi Barb!

*grin* Yeah, my mom thinks both my brother and I are Satan worshippers. My brother by default (his walls are white), and me actively, because (Victoria is correct) my interiour walls are black (most of them anyway). My mom deals with it by praying and by preaching at us whenever she can. She does believe that both of us are going to hell, unless we get saved. I don't see that happening anytime soon (us getting saved). I doubt that she can understand the depth of my disgust and revulsion for her particular religious views, especially the anti-gay one. My disgust towards the Bible (MY interpretation of the Bible) increases every time she preaches at me.

My brother feels bad for my mom, but I keep telling him that her own happiness is her own responsibility. Too bad if she chooses to base that on what her offspring do and don't believe.
I can't imagine what kind of response my parents would have. I didn't start examining my beliefs until after my mother died. I know she would have been badgering me about giving up Catholicism and when I finally reached the conclusion there was no real evidence for a god, whew! The storms would have blown. With my brothers, the subject doesn't come up.

It's not being allowed to be who you are. It's just as sad as gays being rejected by their families or anyone else who steps outside the mainstream.
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:28 AM   #4032
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http://www.splitcoaststampers.com/fo...d.php?t=353958

This was an interesting one.

I never did get a response to my question.
Yes, this was interesting. Thanks for the link. It was very revealing how she thought that one atheist thread amond all the Christianity was somehow overwhelming the site. Oh well....
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:57 AM   #4033
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It's not being allowed to be who you are. It's just as sad as gays being rejected by their families or anyone else who steps outside the mainstream.
If it was more extreme in my family, it would be like the gays... but my family isn't there yet. They don't reject me or my brother; they just preach at us.

It is annoying and supremely irritating, but it's not hurtful, like I imagine it must be for gays rejected (not welcome) by their families.

But it is like not being allowed to be who we are in peace (without being preached at or witnessed to).
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:08 PM   #4034
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If it was more extreme in my family, it would be like the gays... but my family isn't there yet. They don't reject me or my brother; they just preach at us.

It is annoying and supremely irritating, but it's not hurtful, like I imagine it must be for gays rejected (not welcome) by their families.

But it is like not being allowed to be who we are in peace (without being preached at or witnessed to).

Your post reminded me of something a dear friend of mine always says to me. He is gay, but REALLY struggles with it and is not "out" to most of his friends. Most of my friends have no idea I am not Christian. (I think they just assume I am because I am a decent, loving human being.) Anyway, he always says he'll come out to his friends, when I come out to mine!! I think the analogy is somewhat fitting.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:28 PM   #4035
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So, I'm pretty much a lurker...but my question is how do you deal with raising children & keeping them from being ostracized by their friends ~ I've strongly warned my daughters to not talk about religion (my oldest has become very interested in Mythology & loves to 'talk' and is always telling people that we don't believe in god...) & that this is a private matter...

Is there a book?
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:02 AM   #4036
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Your post reminded me of something a dear friend of mine always says to me. He is gay, but REALLY struggles with it and is not "out" to most of his friends. Most of my friends have no idea I am not Christian. (I think they just assume I am because I am a decent, loving human being.) Anyway, he always says he'll come out to his friends, when I come out to mine!! I think the analogy is somewhat fitting.
You know it's true. I mostly don't mention it to people. I can imagine it's a very similar feeling. People are fine with you because they assume you are similar to them.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:04 AM   #4037
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So, I'm pretty much a lurker...but my question is how do you deal with raising children & keeping them from being ostracized by their friends ~ I've strongly warned my daughters to not talk about religion (my oldest has become very interested in Mythology & loves to 'talk' and is always telling people that we don't believe in god...) & that this is a private matter...

Is there a book?
I can't help you there. Mine were exposed to CCD a few years into grade school, then nothing. They seem to have arrived at agnosticism (DD) and atheism (DS) before I did!!!
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Old 09-27-2008, 03:30 AM   #4038
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Our rule for our kids also is no talking about religion in public or outside of our family unit (until they get to be an age where they can better "feel people out".)
My dh was brought up in the church and comes from a church-going family..... My parents are staunch atheists. Despite the differences, we are all close-knit, so the last thing I want is my kids spouting things to the church goers and causing unnecessary drama.
Also - my oldest works in a church as an organist, and he is agnostic... so we have had many, many conversations about church, god, beliefs, respect of others' beliefs, when to keep your comments to yourself...etc.

It was easy when the kids were all little.... but now that my oldest is 16, and my youngest is 6.... some conversation occur that didn't occur when all were young. And as luck would have it - my youngest is extremely precocious and well-spoken for his age.


So -
Kindergarten class last year.
I was spending the morning in the classroom and it was "Circle Time".
The teacher had a big white paper and the kids were to give suggestions of words starting with "PL" and she wrote them on the paper.
Play, place, plum.... you get the idea.

Well, my little guy pipes up.... "PLUTO".
"That's great" she says, "The PLANET PLUTO! 2 PL words!"
What does my son say in his tiny kindergarten voice?
"Actually they aren't sure it's a planet - I meant the Roman god Pluto."

Blank looks.
The kids looked at him.... the teachers (there were 2) looked at me.

The teacher smiles big and says - "See, we get Plum and Play from everyone and then this is the kind of answers we get from A."
Luckily, she loved him and his questions and got a big kick out of him.

I give her credit because to my surprise she actually explained to the kids that in Mythology there were many gods....
We live in a very church-going area....I wonder what those kids went home and told their parents that night.....
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:01 AM   #4039
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Thanks ladies! I've tried to stress to them that what is the utmost importance is respect for others' faith & beliefs. Unfortunately, my oldest likes to debate & 'point' things out ~ she's very analytical & loves to research ~ and 'thinks' very much like me... youngest seems to love to tell everyone what oldest believes (she's still Christian ~ like her Nana...) or doesn't believe... at which point I jump in and say ~ we don't discuss religion... blah, blah, blah...

I personally love to learn about all types of beliefs & I guess in doing so has led me where I am now...

But I'd love to hear anyone else's experiences...
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:36 PM   #4040
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Your post reminded me of something a dear friend of mine always says to me. He is gay, but REALLY struggles with it and is not "out" to most of his friends. Most of my friends have no idea I am not Christian. (I think they just assume I am because I am a decent, loving human being.) Anyway, he always says he'll come out to his friends, when I come out to mine!! I think the analogy is somewhat fitting.

I agree that this analogy is pretty fitting. I don't talk about my faith, or lack thereof, with people, especially since living in the South. In Ohio I could say I don't go to church and no one would think anything of it, but here, most people I know go to church 2 or 3 times a week and the majority of their social circle is church-based. So when you say you don't go to church they look at you a little cross-eyed. And I know my friends would see me differently of I talked about my beliefs.
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