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Old 09-01-2012, 06:16 PM   #1801
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there was a group of girls in the "Young Womens" group that all of a sudden started dropping by with gifts for my one daughter. One time it was jewelry, one time it was a set of scriptures with her name on it, cookies, diaries...you name it, they brought it. When we asked them to stop coming around, they would then bring it to school and give it to her there.
This is harrassment... these girls were essentially stalking your daughter. Good on your husband for stepping in.
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Old 09-02-2012, 12:32 AM   #1802
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We all understand this is a public thread in a public forum, right?

So it's pretty interesting to see a comment in a Current Events thread that most, if not all, non-believers think they are too intelligent to believe in a God.

When asked how this person knew this, she said to check out any atheist blog, including the one on everyday chit chat.

I guess that's us, even though we aren't a blog.

So I wondered if most of us do think that. I personally thought it was a matter of crossing a single line, that line of faith in something supernatural or not.

You can read til the cows come home, some of the brightest minds in history have wrestled with the question. At some point, you have to make up your own mind.

Okay that's not quite true, some people never really question it. I certainly ASSUMED there was a god til I was in my 50s. Never really thought about it. I knew some people didn't believe, but again, I never really thought about it. I'd had philosophy and theology courses at my Jesuit University too.

I know I'm smart, I know what my IQ is, and I know I'm smarter than a lot of people but I also know there are a lot of people smarter than me.

But really, I think there are smart and stupid people in both classes. Any one of us might feel smarter than some individual that we feel hasn't really thought things through, but that's a complicated thing.

So I'm interested in hearing more thoughts on this.

Obviously others might be reading, but I'm willing to be honest. I do feel a sense of "why didn't I see this sooner?" But I certainly can't call someone stupid for not "seeing it" - as I said, it took me a long time. I do know people who've never believed, and they are just normal people, not stupid or smart.

I have always thought it interesting that faith is portrayed as a very positive thing. You need faith to believe, you can't prove God exists. If you don't believe, you are "lacking" faith. You are (implied) deficient. Don't most believers think THEY have it right?

Of course I have some faith. I have faith that when I get on a bus, it's going where it says it's going. I have some faith in the calorie counts on items I eat.

Enough wrambling.
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:02 AM   #1803
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In reply to Stampin Wrose I would say that everyone has to have some faith in some things but the difference between what I have faith in and what a religious person has faith in is huge. I believe in the scientific method. That means I believe that the way to find out about the world is to firstly observe, secondly to formulate a hypothesis as to why what you observe does or does not fit with your expectations or other observations, thirdly set up an experiment to prove or disprove your hypothesis and lastly to accept or discard your hypothesis depending on the results of your experiment. Anything else is a fairy tale.
So, I generally have faith that other people have carried out this process if their results have been publicised in a peer-reviewed scientific journal and especially if their results have been repeated with the same result elsewhere. I don't have to do every experimnt in the world myself. I also know that some very misleading information can be published in a peer-reviewed journal, for example Nature published that immunisation of children can cause autism, and the journal had to publish a very embarrassing reversal when the author of the original article admtitted he falsified the results.
I hesitate to admit that I feel I am smarter than a religious person who accepts the Bible or any other religious document but to be honest I do. At the very least I am less blind, less superstitious, less susceptible to cant, more open minded, more thoughtful, and more aware of the larger picture than a religious person.
To sum up, accepting the Bible or any other religious document 'on faith' to me is not very intelligent.
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:05 AM   #1804
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To the ancient Greeks, 'faith' was considered the lowest of thought forms, requiring no evidence or proof.
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:14 AM   #1805
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I dunno Wrose, like you I think there are smart and stupid people in both groups. Actually, I don't think level of intelligence has anything to do with belief.

edited to add:
I think it has more to do with feelings, or innate beliefs?? I could not MAKE myself believe in God (even though I was raised to believe so, from birth), no more than I could make myself believe that fairies are real. Similarly, I think Christians cannot make themselves believe that God is NOT real; I think it may simply be natural for them to believe that there IS a God.
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:40 AM   #1806
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. At the very least I am less blind, less superstitious, less susceptible to cant, more open minded, more thoughtful, and more aware of the larger picture than a religious person..
Stephanie
I am with you on this one. I am not the most intelligent person I know, that's for sure. I don't think I am "smarter" but I do think I am more...I don't know...logical? I had blind faith at one time but it went away when it stopped making sense. I think people are afraid to look past what they have been tought about religion. I know people who don't believe, yet they still go to church and fake it because of fear. Not fear of god, mind you, but fear of man. The funny thing is, I feel better about things now. DH and I have discussed why we think religion and god were started up in the first place. I thought it was to give people a better feeling about death and dying. DH thinks it was to give people a sense of consequence so they were not going around killing people and stealing...thus the commandments. For me, thinking that one day I will be reunited with those who have died never really made me feel any better about them dying. For me, knowing that "this is it" is what gives me a better feeling.
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:46 AM   #1807
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What an interesting topic.

First, let me qualify. I've been told I am an atheist because I don't believe in one God. However I believe I am spiritual because I believe in an ever present energy in the universe which is love. And that this energy is bigger than me. So, with that said...

I did have to take a trip from my head to my heart as my belief in Love really took shape and evolved. I don't know my IQ; I do spend a lot of time using my intellect. For me to genuinely approach the topic, I had to find that balance of feelings and intellect. My belief has to make sense to my head for me to truly engage.

As to the person's claim that "most people...." -- for me that is simple. I would need to see a survey with statistically significant results. They might have the impression that atheists spend more time in thinking mode... And they might have convoluted that into a hypothesis / assumption that added the notion that intellect is superior.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. I am not sure if I qualify to participate in this thread or not. At the heart of things I believe we can all believe as we want. I wish we could have more inclusive conversations across all thoughts on the topic. I have taken things from Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Jewish, Muslim etc. I think we need more cross conversation with an open mind. Thanks for allowing me here from time to time

Peaceful blessings,

Lela
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:27 AM   #1808
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Originally Posted by SophieLaFontaine View Post
I dunno Wrose, like you I think there are smart and stupid people in both groups. Actually, I don't think level of intelligence has anything to do with belief.

edited to add:
I think it has more to do with feelings, or innate beliefs?? I could not MAKE myself believe in God (even though I was raised to believe so, from birth), no more than I could make myself believe that fairies are real. Similarly, I think Christians cannot make themselves believe that God is NOT real; I think it may simply be natural for them to believe that there IS a God.
Whatchoutalkin'bout, Willis?

Fairies are real.

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Old 09-02-2012, 11:39 AM   #1809
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Originally Posted by SophieLaFontaine View Post
I dunno Wrose, like you I think there are smart and stupid people in both groups. Actually, I don't think level of intelligence has anything to do with belief.

edited to add:
I think it has more to do with feelings, or innate beliefs?? I could not MAKE myself believe in God (even though I was raised to believe so, from birth), no more than I could make myself believe that fairies are real. Similarly, I think Christians cannot make themselves believe that God is NOT real; I think it may simply be natural for them to believe that there IS a God.
I think that's true for some people! See, I think the whole point for me is that we all come from different places! Atheists don't really have much in common, necessarily, except a lack of belief in a supernatural god.


Obviously I believed for 50 years. But no longer do. So I don't fit with this idea, but I know a couple of people who do!
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:54 AM   #1810
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I am with you on this one. I am not the most intelligent person I know, that's for sure. I don't think I am "smarter" but I do think I am more...I don't know...logical? I had blind faith at one time but it went away when it stopped making sense. I think people are afraid to look past what they have been tought about religion. I know people who don't believe, yet they still go to church and fake it because of fear. Not fear of god, mind you, but fear of man. The funny thing is, I feel better about things now. DH and I have discussed why we think religion and god were started up in the first place. I thought it was to give people a better feeling about death and dying. DH thinks it was to give people a sense of consequence so they were not going around killing people and stealing...thus the commandments. For me, thinking that one day I will be reunited with those who have died never really made me feel any better about them dying. For me, knowing that "this is it" is what gives me a better feeling.
Logic, yes that's me. I think years of watching Star Trek: Next Generation and then reruns later, kind of planted a base of thinking for me. It kind of "let" me think about the way things could be, and how fascinating it was that nobody in ST ever talked about religion. (Until later shows)


And meeting thoughtful people who never believed. And realizing that I hadn't thought about God in several years (for various reasons) and nothing had happened. The scariest "first thought" was "there is no god" and noticing the earth didn't open up. lol


But yes, I do think I am willing to think deeply about it and some people are not. The logic makes no sense. How could anyone imagine that something as powerful as the god they purport to worship, cares HOW they worship. We have wars over these petty things? Crazy. I do not at all get the personal god. I can understand the "maybe there's a force" thinking, more. But religion - like you, I think it evolved at first, a code to explain things, gods of the sun and moon, etc., and eventually some people took it to a position of power and control. There were gods of everything, until science slowly made us realize that it was physics controlling things, not separate gods. So most people are down to "just one."
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:56 AM   #1811
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What an interesting topic.

First, let me qualify. I've been told I am an atheist because I don't believe in one God. However I believe I am spiritual because I believe in an ever present energy in the universe which is love. And that this energy is bigger than me. So, with that said...

I did have to take a trip from my head to my heart as my belief in Love really took shape and evolved. I don't know my IQ; I do spend a lot of time using my intellect. For me to genuinely approach the topic, I had to find that balance of feelings and intellect. My belief has to make sense to my head for me to truly engage.

As to the person's claim that "most people...." -- for me that is simple. I would need to see a survey with statistically significant results. They might have the impression that atheists spend more time in thinking mode... And they might have convoluted that into a hypothesis / assumption that added the notion that intellect is superior.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. I am not sure if I qualify to participate in this thread or not. At the heart of things I believe we can all believe as we want. I wish we could have more inclusive conversations across all thoughts on the topic. I have taken things from Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Jewish, Muslim etc. I think we need more cross conversation with an open mind. Thanks for allowing me here from time to time

Peaceful blessings,

Lela
I'm trying to remember a recent conversation. Someone said that when they said they were an atheist, another friend said they thought it was arrogant to "not believe in anything bigger" than yourself.

I wrinkled my forehead - I don't think that's what atheists believe, or at least that was my first thought.

I said that I believed in things bigger than myself, like the power of love (yes, love!) and the power of kindness in humanity. I don't believe it has to be "god inspired" because I believe atheists give to charities too! LOL I know I do. Just not churches. That leaves me a whole tithe-ful amount to give to environmental agencies, for example. And yes that's where most of my charity goes.
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:59 AM   #1812
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So Lela, I meant to add, you are certainly welcome, you seem to think about things the way many of us do.

And yet isn't it wonderful to see how others have made their path?

I'm always fascinated by people who never believed. I don't know if I was just properly indoctrinated (is there such a thing?) or if it was just sensible enough to be okay with me. I was never taught that the bible was a literal history book, Catholics didn't exactly read the bible much but I learned about Genesis, and the nun stood up there and said that seven days was what was written, but "who knows what a day was to god" - I mean before you have light, what is a day????? Right? So it made sense that it was a parable for creation. That was okay with me.
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Old 09-02-2012, 12:11 PM   #1813
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I think I also learned an interesting lesson about children. My DD said something once about how the bible stories just seemed like other fairy tales to her.

When I used to take her to church - not every Sunday but somewhat regularly - I was involved with the women's group and they had donuts after mass, so I could get the kids to go, and then they'd have CCD in the hall.

DD always wanted to take a book to read in church. I told her it had to be the book of bible stories, if she had to take a book. So she did. It had pictures and was good reading.

But now, I realize that to her, that book just blended in with all the other books of stories she was reading!!!!!

When I realized I no longer believed, well, I clearly remember that it took awhile to be a complete thought, and I said out loud to DD that I thought I was an atheist. She said, "Well now that's not something one normally hears from their 55 year old mother."

Then she told me that she was agnostic, at best. And DS had been an atheist for a long long time. (He's only 21 now.)

Yeah it was interesting.
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:31 PM   #1814
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Logic, yes that's me. I think years of watching Star Trek: Next Generation and then reruns later, kind of planted a base of thinking for me. It kind of "let" me think about the way things could be, and how fascinating it was that nobody in ST ever talked about religion. (Until later shows)


And meeting thoughtful people who never believed. And realizing that I hadn't thought about God in several years (for various reasons) and nothing had happened. The scariest "first thought" was "there is no god" and noticing the earth didn't open up. lol


But yes, I do think I am willing to think deeply about it and some people are not. The logic makes no sense. How could anyone imagine that something as powerful as the god they purport to worship, cares HOW they worship. We have wars over these petty things? Crazy. I do not at all get the personal god. I can understand the "maybe there's a force" thinking, more. But religion - like you, I think it evolved at first, a code to explain things, gods of the sun and moon, etc., and eventually some people took it to a position of power and control. There were gods of everything, until science slowly made us realize that it was physics controlling things, not separate gods. So most people are down to "just one."
I think that to (some, or most?) Christians, it DOES make sense. When I was visiting my sister, I picked up a book written by her (also Christian) father-in-law. In it, he was explaining science from his viewpoint, and how um, Bible-based science made sooooooo much more sense to him than secular (? not sure on the wording he used). For example, he wrote that it made sense to him that God created things, but it made no sense to him that secular science insisted that the universe came from nothing. He listed a bunch of other examples and I could see how they would make sense to look at it from that way.

For some reason, things making sense are not as important to me. This is probably because from childhood onward, I always had such a hard time understanding things and how they work, that almost nothing made sense to me. Water coming out of a faucet did not make sense - how does THAT work??? Water pressure?? Doesn't make sense. How do the water pipes keep from bursting under pressure that's powerful enough to move heavy water?? How do cars run? Doesn't make sense to me!! Time moving more slowly on a faster-moving object than on a slower object??? Makes no sense to me whatsoever!! So, a God who would be irate over nonsensical things would not make sense to me either, but would not have been a hindrance to my belief, if I had believed.

Re-reading this, it becomes apparent that I would be more of a "stupid" atheist.
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:41 PM   #1815
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People are really good at dealing with cognitive dissonance.

It lets them easily smoke cigarettes even after being told they are so bad for you.

Anyway as for making sense, my dad always had trouble with zero multiplied by anything.

The rule is, anything X zero = zero.

Dad said he could see 0 x 3 = 0 because you have nothing three times.
But 3 x 0 troubled him, because if you have 3... how can you have it zero times. I tried to explain that was the point. You have three no times, which is nothing. Didn't make sense to him.

Sometimes science is not logical. Helium is not logical!!!!! That thing about helium balloons in your car... crazy!
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:43 PM   #1816
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All that to say it's not necessarily that anyone is "stupid." There can be a lack of critical thinking skills because the person was never taught to think critically. Some people are taught very early not to question, and so they never do. (My dad was also one of those people.)
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:12 PM   #1817
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Re-reading this, it becomes apparent that I would be more of a "stupid" atheist.
LOL! I would call you a non-skeptical atheist - does that sound better?
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:36 PM   #1818
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I'm also reminded of some conversations with an old boyfriend, 30 years ago.

How on earth does music come out of a record? The needle on the grooves, but that machine goes into a plug and well, it was all magic to me.

What's a bit? It either is or it isn't, I was told. Um, what the heck??? LOL

Yeah I hear ya, Sophie.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:32 AM   #1819
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LOL at all of you. "non-skeptical"? 3x0?

Speaking of illogical things, a lot of mathematicians did not like how calculus was not logical (how can the sum of a great many infinitely small things add up to anything?).
The History of Calculus
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:43 AM   #1820
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I think that's true for some people! See, I think the whole point for me is that we all come from different places! Atheists don't really have much in common, necessarily, except a lack of belief in a supernatural god.


Obviously I believed for 50 years. But no longer do. So I don't fit with this idea, but I know a couple of people who do!

But did you MAKE yourself stop believing? Or did it just happen naturally, as a result of not thinking about God for several years, etc.?

I know belief changes sometimes over time. But I have the impression that these changes occur naturally (out of the control of the person), and not as a result of a conscious decision to believe or refuse to believe.

Like taste? I know that eons ago I used to like swimming (well, playing in water). Now I don't, but I didn't do anything to MAKE myself change my taste for swimming. It just happened, out of my control. I feel that I can't control my own tastes (and beliefs), so it's hard for me to imagine that someone else can.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:03 AM   #1821
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But did you MAKE yourself stop believing? Or did it just happen naturally, as a result of not thinking about God for several years, etc.?

I know belief changes sometimes over time. But I have the impression that these changes occur naturally (out of the control of the person), and not as a result of a conscious decision to believe or refuse to believe.

Like taste? I know that eons ago I used to like swimming (well, playing in water). Now I don't, but I didn't do anything to MAKE myself change my taste for swimming. It just happened, out of my control. I feel that I can't control my own tastes (and beliefs), so it's hard for me to imagine that someone else can.
Hmmm, I guess it was a combination of natural conclusions, perhaps motivated by the fact that I ran into some very interesting people at both ends of the spectrum, and really never had before. They made me think about god, something I had kind of not been thinking about. They made me question my old beliefs, knowing I hadn't been practicing anything for a long time. And everything I've learned the past 25 or 30 years, it all just lined up. It made no more sense. It wasn't an emotional conclusion. It was more of a slow realization.

I have always tried to figure out why people think what they do, even though I know one can't really ever know - just consider factors. I have a BS in Psychology (that I never used professionally), because it fascinates me.

Yes tastes do change. But when I do think about why, I can generally come up with answers. Why did I love going to concerts but no longer do? Because it's a PITA. You have to work hard to get tickets and pay a ton of money and get stuck in traffic and crowds and ... well you get the picture. I didn't mind that stuff when I was a kid. When DH got free tickets a few years back (through his work), they were free and that eliminated enough hassle to enjoy the concert. ha ha.

Sometimes we force ourselves. I wanted to drink hot milk before bedtime, but it tastes kind of weird, so I'd put a little cocoa mix into it, and little by little, cut back.

I admit I'm a dork. My kids constantly reassure me.

I don't think you think about it as obsessively as I do. I feel like your spirit is more artistic, and well it's hard to describe, but not so pinned down by what one might call mundane matters. I like math, always did. But not calculus, speaking of that. Real numbers. I probably would have been good in accounting, but what woman was told to go into accounting in the sixties?

I do love hearing how people think.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:14 AM   #1822
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I came across this the other night, already in progress. In the part I came in on, they did a study with putting kids in a room with 2 boxes and in one box was a ball. THey had a picture on the wall of a fairy and told the kids that the fairy would guide them to the correct box that had the ball in it by giving them a "sign". They wanted to see at what age a person starts to believe in something that is not there and, if memory serves, it was 8 years old. Up until that age, they just did not put it together that an invisible force or person could do anything.

Through the Wormhole S3E10 Did We Invent God? HQ - YouTube

I watched the whole episode this morning and really liked it so I thought I would share.
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:22 PM   #1823
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To me it is not about raw intelligence at all.

But more about thinking styles, analytical bents, left brain vs. right brain reasoning.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:52 AM   #1824
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I have known some very intelligent people who are believers. So, I'd have to say no I don't think it is a matter of intelligence alone.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #1825
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I do think I have trouble thinking someone is a brainiac if they believe the bible literally, if they don't believe in evolution, if they believe that fossils were planted by the devil and the earth is literally - what, 8,000 years old? That stuff does boggle my mind.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:05 PM   #1826
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Y'all are so gabby. When do you find time to slaughter your goats and perform your rituals?

I got nuthin to add to your current conversation. I simply do not believe in God. Boring. I know I make a bad atheist.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:21 PM   #1827
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I do think I have trouble thinking someone is a brainiac if they believe the bible literally, if they don't believe in evolution, if they believe that fossils were planted by the devil and the earth is literally - what, 8,000 years old? That stuff does boggle my mind.
Exactly! Beleiving something though lack of evidence is one thing, sticking to your beliefs despite evidence to the contrary is something else again, and in my mind, not very intelligent.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #1828
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I have known some very intelligent people who are believers. So, I'd have to say no I don't think it is a matter of intelligence alone.
I agree with this.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #1829
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I do think I have trouble thinking someone is a brainiac if they believe the bible literally, if they don't believe in evolution, if they believe that fossils were planted by the devil and the earth is literally - what, 8,000 years old? That stuff does boggle my mind.
And I agree with this, too.
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:21 PM   #1830
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Y'all are so gabby. When do you find time to slaughter your goats and perform your rituals? .
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:49 PM   #1831
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Y'all are so gabby. When do you find time to slaughter your goats and perform your rituals?

I got nuthin to add to your current conversation. I simply do not believe in God. Boring. I know I make a bad atheist.
Uh, well, I have no kids, plants, or pets. So that leaves me with lots of time to make cards, surf the internet, and do the rituals and goat slaughter.


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I do think I have trouble thinking someone is a brainiac if they believe the bible literally, if they don't believe in evolution, if they believe that fossils were planted by the devil and the earth is literally - what, 8,000 years old? That stuff does boggle my mind.
Well... I guess I would have trouble too, except that I do know my sister, whom I THINK believes in all that stuff. But...she is quite intelligent. I don't think that she believes that fossils were planted by the devil. She DOES believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time. It doesn't make sense to me that she is so intelligent otherwise, but manages to um... reconcile such ...cognitive dissonance? But I am used to things not making sense to me.

Another co-worker explained the earth's age and fossils bit from his point of view. He said that God created Adam and Eve as adults (aged humans) and not as infants. So God could've created an aged earth complete with fossils and age...

Also, I have heard other Christians saying that carbon dating is not reliable. I am not interested enough to pursue this branch of science enough so that I can refute this. And there are other accusations of scientists manipulating data to fit their image of geological history.

But none of this bothers me, since I don't think these beliefs harm anyone. What REALLY bothers me is their attitude towards gay marriage and abortion.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:35 PM   #1832
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Uh, well, I have no kids, plants, or pets. So that leaves me with lots of time to make cards, surf the internet, and do the rituals and goat slaughter.




Well... I guess I would have trouble too, except that I do know my sister, whom I THINK believes in all that stuff. But...she is quite intelligent. I don't think that she believes that fossils were planted by the devil. She DOES believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time. It doesn't make sense to me that she is so intelligent otherwise, but manages to um... reconcile such ...cognitive dissonance? But I am used to things not making sense to me.

Another co-worker explained the earth's age and fossils bit from his point of view. He said that God created Adam and Eve as adults (aged humans) and not as infants. So God could've created an aged earth complete with fossils and age...

Also, I have heard other Christians saying that carbon dating is not reliable. I am not interested enough to pursue this branch of science enough so that I can refute this. And there are other accusations of scientists manipulating data to fit their image of geological history.

But none of this bothers me, since I don't think these beliefs harm anyone. What REALLY bothers me is their attitude towards gay marriage and abortion.
I'm obviously NOT bright enough to remember what was said at the top of the page, but I know there was a lot up there that I thought - yup that was me, yup, that would be me. I'm totally with the daughter who felt like the bible was another one of her story books - that would have been me in Junior high school. I read all the mythology and then segued right over into the religion section and read all that. A pattern emerged. Oddly enough, they All were trying to explain natural phenomena through super natural means. They ALL were trying to get people to behave better. So, it foolowed for me that they must all be related.

I really don't care what religon people choose to follow. WHAT I CARE about is when they try to impose their religious beliefs on ME, or other people who don't believe as they do.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:28 PM   #1833
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Uh, well, I have no kids, plants, or pets. So that leaves me with lots of time to make cards, surf the internet, and do the rituals and goat slaughter.




Well... I guess I would have trouble too, except that I do know my sister, whom I THINK believes in all that stuff. But...she is quite intelligent. I don't think that she believes that fossils were planted by the devil. She DOES believe that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time. It doesn't make sense to me that she is so intelligent otherwise, but manages to um... reconcile such ...cognitive dissonance? But I am used to things not making sense to me.

Another co-worker explained the earth's age and fossils bit from his point of view. He said that God created Adam and Eve as adults (aged humans) and not as infants. So God could've created an aged earth complete with fossils and age...

Also, I have heard other Christians saying that carbon dating is not reliable. I am not interested enough to pursue this branch of science enough so that I can refute this. And there are other accusations of scientists manipulating data to fit their image of geological history.

But none of this bothers me, since I don't think these beliefs harm anyone. What REALLY bothers me is their attitude towards gay marriage and abortion.
To me, that says our educational systems are failing. If you can't teach people to think about those things, then what's going on?


I love when they say, well, evolution is "just" a theory. Yes, it's a theory like gravity is a theory. We don't understand the whole thing. It's not a theory the way the word is loosely used in conversation. People are not learning the scientific language. And so they are trying to deal with the dissonance by dismissing facts. And all sorts of "scientists" take advantage like snake oil salesmen.


So it does bother me. There's not much hope for the future if people don't learn to think.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #1834
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But none of this bothers me, since I don't think these beliefs harm anyone. What REALLY bothers me is their attitude towards gay marriage and abortion.
Agreed with Wrose re: education. The problem gets to be when you're one of those kids going to a private school and taught about creationism, but not at all about fossils, carbon dating, dinosaurs (other than they existed when animals were created?), or evolution. I remember singing a song that went something like this, only longer:

"I am not descended from monkeys, though you may be fooled at first glance.
I'm the work of God, my creator! I am not the product of chance.
I did not evolve from a tadpole who got lost and wandered ashore......
But by God's hand, His will and plan, I am, and nothing more."

but I don't remember when or how I learned about evolution, if it happened at all before high school with any accurate, trustworthy detail.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:53 AM   #1835
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Y'all are so gabby. When do you find time to slaughter your goats and perform your rituals?

I got nuthin to add to your current conversation. I simply do not believe in God. Boring. I know I make a bad atheist.
We do it at night. We have found that midnight sacrifice is better than at other times. AND when we did it during the day, the neighbors complained. They also don't like it when we dance nude around a bonfire. *shrug*
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:10 AM   #1836
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To me, that says our educational systems are failing. If you can't teach people to think about those things, then what's going on?


I love when they say, well, evolution is "just" a theory. Yes, it's a theory like gravity is a theory. We don't understand the whole thing. It's not a theory the way the word is loosely used in conversation. People are not learning the scientific language. And so they are trying to deal with the dissonance by dismissing facts. And all sorts of "scientists" take advantage like snake oil salesmen.


So it does bother me. There's not much hope for the future if people don't learn to think.
Oh... they're thinking all right.

I dunno about the educational system; my nephews and niece are being home-schooled. I hated science so I don't remember any of it from my (secular) public school days.

I know I picked up a kid's science book (one of those by DK??) and read through it and my sister had edited it. The original text went something like "no one has ever heard a dinosaur so we don't know what they sounded like." She changed it to something like "no one currently alive has ever..." Stuff like that. <cringing>

I don't know anything about science; certainly not enough to put forth convincing evidence that would even start to change her mind. Just as we were taught in public schools that science is science, and is mostly correct until completely proven otherwise, my sister is teaching her kids that the Bible is the book of truth, even where science is concerned.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:15 AM   #1837
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I really agree with this. Some people are thinkers and some are not.

And intelligence is independent of how much a person thinks. I could do a lot of thinking but just have flaws in my thinking for reasons of lack of raw intelligence, heavy emotions, data available, etc.

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To me it is not about raw intelligence at all.

But more about thinking styles, analytical bents, left brain vs. right brain reasoning.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:20 AM   #1838
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We do it at night. We have found that midnight sacrifice is better than at other times. AND when we did it during the day, the neighbors complained. They also don't like it when we dance nude around a bonfire. *shrug*
Ha ha ha ha ha
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:25 AM   #1839
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Science was rough for me too. I've learned more physics from my husband and son than I ever did in school.

I think sometimes people think scientists are just poking around and guessing. They maybe don't grasp the years of research and reading involved, before a statement is made with any confidence. And I think the less you think about it, the easier it is to dismiss it as just another opinion.

That's what worries me with so many fundamental Christians home schooling. Whole lotta kids knowing nothing about real science. Sad.

I feel like I know just enough to appreciate how much I don't know. Richard Dawkins is not just an atheist, he's an extremely knowledgeable biologist. I tried to read some of THOSE books of his and simply could not slog through them.

I was able to get through most of Hawking's Grand Design, because he wrote it for "regular" people, he put graphs in, etc. Sometimes I could only read two pages and need a nap! Or have to read a couple pages a couple times. Still, I appreciated it. Again, I have a feel for how much I DON'T know.
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:35 PM   #1840
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I was able to get through most of Hawking's Grand Design, because he wrote it for "regular" people
I am finding that there is more and more out there geared for "regular" people. There is this one show that DH watches (is it Nova?) and I love it because these scientists and researchers get so excited when they are explaining things! I call them the hippies because the first time I watched with him, they had a physicist with long gray hair in a ponytail...not what I was expecting to see Then there is Brian Cox who is just so darned happy all the time! They manage to bring things down to an elementary level which is great for me!! DH understands all of it and I struggle with most of it. But when Brian Cox says in his fabulous accent "Imagine billions of pieces of broken glass floating in front of you" by golly, I can see it plain as day and it all comes together.
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