Atheists and Agnostics Gather Here... (Part 2)

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose

Chick-Fil-A is another weird issue. The owner does have a right to give his money to whatever cause he wants. And people who disagree have the right to not go there.


But I have to admit, a lot of the people they interviewed showed me that there are still a lot of Americans who still don't get that marriage equality is a matter of civil rights and has nothing to do with religion. The moment someone says "God" or "The Bible" says what marriage is, I think, yes, that's for one group of religious people.


We have state rights that are being denied to people who lose them simply by their sexual orientation. Separate the civil rights from the religious rites. Let's take away ALL the civil benefits for marriages for EVERYONE. Everyone has to have paperwork to get into the hospital to see their mate. No tax breaks, nothing. Then see how fast things change. A religious rite should not determine one's civil rights.

I agree Wrose but another issue is, are we supposed to believe he is not discriminating in hiring?

According to the suit that's been filed even a single mother isn't the right kind of chik.

[suber]

It's a hot issue for me, too. I wish we could all
get together in person, it would be nice to say what you think without fear of censure.

[parkes]

I hope it is of some comfort that New Zealand is on the brink of legalising marriage for gays (presently they can have a civil union which prevents them from adopting amongst other things), with a bill before parliament at the moment. Our Prime Minister initially was against gay marriage but he has had a change of heart due in large part to Barack Obama's pro gay marriage comments.
Stephanie

[Stampin Wrose]

Originally Posted by tigerlily55

I agree Wrose but another issue is, are we supposed to believe he is not discriminating in hiring?

According to the suit that's been filed even a single mother isn't the right kind of chik.

Ahh, I don't know about that, but if he is discriminating, that's a whole nuther thing.


I am glad to see that a kiss-in is being staged. I think boycotts don't work, in general, and we saw how many people turned out to support discrimination.

[crrimal]

Ok, I have to ask - what is a kiss-in?

Christi

[Stampin Wrose]

Gay couples are showing up to kiss at the restaurant. Seems like they kiss outside then go somewhere else to eat. lol

[crrimal]

That's what I thought it was, just wasn't sure. I don't go to Chic-fil-a anymore since it makes me sick, but after the crap they pulled with the marriage stuff, I'll never go back again. I can't help thinking that this is just the tip of the iceberg and they're doing more things to discriminate. Seems to me they've done more to hurt their business in the long run than to help it out. After all the hoopla dies down, we'll see. Just another reason I run from businesses and people that tout themselves as being christian.

Christi

[suber]

I was kind of tempted to see if I could get a female friend to go with me and have a kiss just to show support. They won't miss the money I never spend there, cause I never eat there anyway, but now there's no way I would.

[Stampin Wrose]

Christi, it is interesting that I learned that when you give or help, you don't let one hand know what the other is doing. I appreciate a kind word at a business, and fair treatment, whether I'm of the same religion or not.

That whole thing of advertising that the business is Christian is weird to me, but then, I didn't grow up in places where that happened.

[crrimal]

Kathy - that's why I continue to do business with those who go out of their way to keep my business. A kind word or a follow-up email does wonders.

I grew up in wisconsin where most places didn't advertise their religion, but here in the south (where I've lived for 15 years), it seems to be quite common. I think they use it as a marketing strategy to get people in the door. To lots of people, christian=honest, fair, trustworthy. How many of these christian business owners really adhere to their faith and aren't in the back room messing with some hotty behind their partner's back? I'd rather do business with someone who was up front and real, not someone who hides behind their religion. Just my two cents worth.

Christi

[crrimal]

Thought I'd share this. Happy friday ya'll!

Christi

[suber]

Why do I keep agreeing with everything y'all post???
Have you noticed how often "good" and "Christian" are used as one word? "She's such a goodChristian woman.". I don't think I've ever heard that someone was a badChristian, or even a mediocreChristian.

[Stampin Wrose]

Suber, I have noticed that when some self-proclaimed Christian does something notably heinous, the Christian community says he's not a real Christian. That way they can say (I guess) that "real" Christians never do anything wrong. On the other hand, you hear that sins will be forgiven, so I don't know why the bad people aren't included and forgiven. Then there's "hate the sin, love the sinner." I've seen Christians say they have gay friends who know they think they are sinners but they are still friends; I can't help but think they are fooling themselves. Their gay friends might just not be rude, but how can you be friends with someone like that? I don't get it.

[lilactime]

A lot of gay Americans come to Canada to be married. Canada made gay marriage legal in recent years. Our current Prime Minister would love to go back to the old ways.
I do believe that at least the topic is "out of the closet" in the states, and that is how change starts. I have noticed many gay positive movies and TV shows also - they help to educate in their own way.

As far as the preacher is concerned, it has been my observation that all places where people are vulnerable (nursing homes, private schools, churches, boy scouts etc.) attract those that prey on the innocent. A cleric tried to molest me in a Catholic church when I was 5. When my grandmother reported the incident to the parish priest, the first question he asked was "What was she wearing?"
I believe strongly in the separation of church and state and in civil rights. Continue to speak your truth, it does make a difference.

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by crrimal

Kathy - that's why I continue to do business with those who go out of their way to keep my business. A kind word or a follow-up email does wonders.

I grew up in wisconsin where most places didn't advertise their religion, but here in the south (where I've lived for 15 years), it seems to be quite common. I think they use it as a marketing strategy to get people in the door. To lots of people, christian=honest, fair, trustworthy. How many of these christian business owners really adhere to their faith and aren't in the back room messing with some hotty behind their partner's back? I'd rather do business with someone who was up front and real, not someone who hides behind their religion. Just my two cents worth.

Christi

Hi from someone who moved back to WI a few years ago. Well, I thought I was moving back to the Wisconsin that I knew and loved but then Scott Walker reared his ugly head

I worked for a Xtian gift company for a few years. Don't know about the fornication part but I know I saw mangers shoving work off on subordinates and large retailers acting like Wally Mart and squeezing every penny they could from my small vendor. Then individuals would talk about not being comfortable hanging around with "unbelievers."

Martha

[tigerlily55]

Thought you all would enjoy this. A reader wrote to the Freedom From Religion Foundation and shared what he had learned about this penny and it's motto. He noted that the silver-copper 1792 penny recently sold for $1.15 million. Instead of "In God We Trust" the motto is "Liberty:Parent of Science and Industry."

I think I like it!

[MadgeRPh]

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose

Suber, I have noticed that when some self-proclaimed Christian does something notably heinous, the Christian community says he's not a real Christian. That way they can say (I guess) that "real" Christians never do anything wrong. On the other hand, you hear that sins will be forgiven, so I don't know why the bad people aren't included and forgiven. Then there's "hate the sin, love the sinner." I've seen Christians say they have gay friends who know they think they are sinners but they are still friends; I can't help but think they are fooling themselves. Their gay friends might just not be rude, but how can you be friends with someone like that? I don't get it.

This cracks me up. Does this mean that person is a "fake" Christian?
So all "real" Christians are good? I thought Jim Baker claimed he was a good Christian? I guess Jessica Hahn thought he was pretty good since she spent alot of time banging him in the office.

I too think that the purpose is to equate good with Christian. Does this mean there are no good Jews, Mulims, Budhhists, Atheists? How about Simply "she's a good woman".

There are many. many good people who happen tp be Christian. There are many skanks who also happen to be Christian. Same with _____________(fill in the blank religion).
People are fallible and not perfect and there are good and bad in every group.

[Stampin Wrose]

Exactly. Christians are a group of imperfect people and I have to say, the ones I know are reasonable people.

But when there have been tragedies, shootings, and the killer turns out to be Christian, you will see people say, he wasn't a Christian. They refuse to include him.

I guess my other problem with that is, what happened to forgiveness, and not judging? I thought that was supposed to be left up to their god.

We seem to have people who think morality is objective! Um, no.

Or that atheist = amoral. No. *sigh* There's a lot of ignorance out there.

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose

Exactly. Christians are a group of imperfect people and I have to say, the ones I know are reasonable people.

But when there have been tragedies, shootings, and the killer turns out to be Christian, you will see people say, he wasn't a Christian. They refuse to include him.

I guess my other problem with that is, what happened to forgiveness, and not judging? I thought that was supposed to be left up to their god.

We seem to have people who think morality is objective! Um, no.

Or that atheist = amoral. No. *sigh* There's a lot of ignorance out there.

Along the same vein, everyone made much of the Amish community who forgave the guy who murdered 5 girls. They can forgive that and not one of their own children who leaves the community because they want a different life? Shunned for life? Great.

[SophieLaFontaine]

Originally Posted by tigerlily55

Along the same vein, everyone made much of the Amish community who forgave the guy who murdered 5 girls. They can forgive that and not one of their own children who leaves the community because they want a different life? Shunned for life? Great.

I tried googling "amish forgiving children leaving" and found this:
Escaping the Amish – Part 2
Fascinating!
I am SO GRATEFUL I wasn't born into an Old Amish culture!!
I still don't know if the Amish forgive the children who leave though. (I have the impression that one can shun someone that they've already forgiven? Kind of like if one forgives a toxic ex-friend, but still wants nothing more to do with her?)

[MadgeRPh]

Originally Posted by tigerlily55

Along the same vein, everyone made much of the Amish community who forgave the guy who murdered 5 girls. They can forgive that and not one of their own children who leaves the community because they want a different life? Shunned for life? Great.

You know...I never thought of this. Very interesting point. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by SophieLaFontaine

I tried googling "amish forgiving children leaving" and found this:
Escaping the Amish – Part 2
Fascinating!
I am SO GRATEFUL I wasn't born into an Old Amish culture!!
I still d
on't know if the Amish forgive the children who leave though. (I have the impression that one can shun someone that they've already forgiven? Kind of like if one forgives a toxic ex-friend, but still wants nothing more to do with her?)

I googled Amish shunning and forgiveness and found this. It's someone who is Mennonite commenting on how the Amish see this. Still seems as though the forgiveness doesn't come until you go home.

More on shunning. It's tough love don't ya know.. Religion can justify anything to keep control over the flock.

[CraftyMel2]

There is a show called Amish: Out of Order and it is amazing how these kids that leave the Amish live. This show takes place in a community filled with ex-Amish. They are so confused, it's really sad to watch. There are some that go from the frying pan into the fire and get baptised as Pentecostal! They just want something to believe in, something to grab onto. Its so sad. We have boys here that are raised in Polygamist towns and get kicked out when there are too many boys for the girls...left to fend for themselves in an unfamiliar atmosphere. These are the things that really break my heart. These people just don't get it.

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by CraftyMel2

There is a show called Amish: Out of Order and it is amazing how these kids that leave the Amish live. This show takes place in a community filled with ex-Amish. They are so confused, it's really sad to watch. There are some that go from the frying pan into the fire and get baptised as Pentecostal! They just want something to believe in, something to grab onto. Its so sad. We have boys here that are raised in Polygamist towns and get kicked out when there are too many boys for the girls...left to fend for themselves in an unfamiliar atmosphere. These are the things that really break my heart. These people just don't get it.

Yes, I've watched that show a few times.It takes a lot of guts to leave that type of situation. I've heard about the boys that are kicked out of FLDS places.

I suppose most of these kids are too old to be placed in foster homes.
Aren't there other social services that could help them find a job and a place to live?

[suber]

I think religion has a lot to answer for.

[CraftyMel2]

Originally Posted by tigerlily55

Aren't there other social services that could help them find a job and a place to live?

I have seen billboards that advertise help for the FLDS kids. From what I understand, there are homes that they can go to and the people that run them will help them find jobs and stuff like that. I think it's great that they do that. There are also homes for the women and girls who manage to escape. Little tidbit that I wanted to add is that when you meet someone who has left that "church", many become Athiests rather than join another church. Once they get to the point where they have to run away, they are pretty much done with the whole thing.

[LindaBabe]

Originally Posted by crrimal

Just another reason I run from businesses and people that tout themselves as being christian.

Christi

That would be me. I like a lot of the Hobby Lobby merchandise but I can't STAND the all pervasiveness of god in every department, to say nothing of constant religious music playing.

We decided against planning a move south because we couldn't stomach the over the top christianity. (Like - if you don't belong to a church, you don't have any opportunities for a social life)

Now, if the "republicans' win, it looks like we could be considering a move to Canada. I wish it were warmer there.

[parkes]

Originally Posted by LindaBabe

That would be me. I like a lot of the Hobby Lobby merchandise but I can't STAND the all pervasiveness of god in every department, to say nothing of constant religious music playing.

We decided against planning a move south because we couldn't stomach the over the top christianity. (Like - if you don't belong to a church, you don't have any opportunities for a social life)

Now, if the "republicans' win, it looks like we could be considering a move to Canada. I wish it were warmer there.

Come to New Zealand instead! It is warmer here and apart from the odd Christian bookshop, there is no religious influence in any other shop.
Stephanie

[Stampin Wrose]

I sure wish New Zealand had more open immigration policies! Can we declare non-religious persecution?

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by MadgeRPh

You know...I never thought of this. Very interesting point. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Yes, I think it must be because preserving the community, just as it is, is the highest priority. If fallen away kids are allowed to come back and visit, they could take more people with them.

I suppose it's no different than any other sects or cultures. Hindu parents want their kids to marry Hindus to keep the culture in tact. Catholic or Jewish parents want their kids to do the same even though these days it's less likely to happen.

[Stampin Wrose]

Originally Posted by tigerlily55

Yes, I think it must be because preserving the community, just as it is, is the highest priority. If fallen away kids are allowed to come back and visit, they could take more people with them.

I suppose it's no different than any other sects or cultures. Hindu parents want their kids to marry Hindus to keep the culture in tact. Catholic or Jewish parents want their kids to do the same even though these days it's less likely to happen.

Yes when I was a kid, I heard about marrying other Catholics and how you couldn't get married in the church otherwise or whatever; then it turned out you could have an ecumenical service, if this and that was covered. But it was probably my generation that moved off that to the great extent that it was pretty much blown out of the water.


This went along with television, feminism, the sexual revolution, hippies and communes, and everything being on TV. The good thing was, young people who didn't fit that fifties mold, used to be relegated to second class status. They began to realize they weren't alone and didn't have to feel that way.


I do find it interesting that when I was in HS in the sixties, the city had enough Catholic schools to have sports leagues. No football, but basketball - we had that many high schools that were supported by parishes. Most parishes had a grade school and each section of the city had a high school that these grade schools fed into.


Now the city is down to two Catholic high schools, one an expensive prep school that's hard to get into. There was less and less need through the years. One building after another was sold.

[raquelita_uno]

Here's one to make your head spin.

Santorum says government is forcing Catholics to sin

Nevermind the whole "free will" thing. I just can't take it anyone more!

[SophieLaFontaine]

Originally Posted by raquelita_uno

Here's one to make your head spin.

Santorum says government is forcing Catholics to sin

Nevermind the whole "free will" thing. I just can't take it anyone more!

I'm sooooooooo grateful Santorum dropped out. If I was a believer, I'd be thanking God FERVENTLY, over and over and over, for that.

[Stampin Wrose]

Yeah well Ryan is cut from the same cloth, he's just not quite as vocal about it at the moment.

I want to shout from the rooftops that Ryan believes in Fetal Personhood, because I think a lot of people wouldn't even consider the ticket if they knew that.

Talk about going back 50 years.

[SophieLaFontaine]

Well... McCain picked Palin, who was ultra-conservative also... and he lost, so maybe Romney will lose because Ryan is also ultra-conservative? Don't most Republicans believe in Fetal Personhood?? Isn't that why most Republicans want to do away with abortion?? Because they want less government in all things except for the uterus.

Edited to add: I think that if most people knew that Ryan believes in Fetal Personhood, the Republican half would still vote for them, and the Democrat half still wouldn't.

[Stampin Wrose]

Originally Posted by SophieLaFontaine

Well... McCain picked Palin, who was ultra-conservative also... and he lost, so maybe Romney will lose because Ryan is also ultra-conservative? Don't most Republicans believe in Fetal Personhood?? Isn't that why most Republicans want to do away with abortion?? Because they want less government in all things except for the uterus.

Edited to add: I think that if most people knew that Ryan believes in Fetal Personhood, the Republican half would still vote for them, and the Democrat half still wouldn't.

I have a feeling that a lot of people who identify as Republicans are NOT for fetal personhood. Kind of like an awful lot of Catholics use birth control.


But yes the same thing has occurred to me. Palin was also ultra-conservative but she was also very vocal about it and she was loud and alienated a lot of people. Ryan could probably do better if he keeps quiet. lol


For all we talk about it here, an awful lot of people are not into politics at all. There's a thread in CE about some guy who got jealous of his girlfriend for looking at a facebook page of Romney because he didn't know who it was.
http://www.splitcoaststampers.com/fo...o-t558561.html


LOL!!!!!!

[SophieLaFontaine]

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose

For all we talk about it here, an awful lot of people are not into politics at all. There's a thread in CE about some guy who got jealous of his girlfriend for looking at a facebook page of Romney because he didn't know who it was.
http://www.splitcoaststampers.com/fo...o-t558561.html


LOL!!!!!!

Oh dear! Although I know what Romney looks like, I would be hard-pressed to say what anyone else looks like. I know their names, but not their faces. I would probably not even recognize Romney if he was shown "out of context" - with no campaign signs or crowds around him or anything etc. I've got my early ballot here and I do not know what a single one of the local candidates look like!

[raquelita_uno]

Originally Posted by SophieLaFontaine

Oh dear! Although I know what Romney looks like, I would be hard-pressed to say what anyone else looks like. I know their names, but not their faces. I would probably not even recognize Romney if he was shown "out of context" - with no campaign signs or crowds around him or anything etc. I've got my early ballot here and I do not know what a single one of the local candidates look like!

I had the opportunity to meet a local candidate this past week who was going door to door to introduce himself. Seems like a nice guy and he was in favor of an issue important to me (paying back the schools that the legislature "borrowed" from to balance the budget) but unfortunately I'm turning into a single issue voter and I really hate it! This particular canditate planned to vote against gay marriage in our state this year and is against reproductive choice. (I won't use the term pro-life or anti-abortion because everyone I know is pro-life and would rather there be fewer abortions). I absolutely can not support anyone who puts their religious beliefs ahead of everyone else's rights. Perhaps someone would say I am putting my beliefs ahead of everyone else also, but at least my beliefs don't force anyone to do something or forbid them either.

[tigerlily55]

Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose

I have a feeling that a lot of people who identify as Republicans are NOT for fetal personhood. Kind of like an awful lot of Catholics use birth control.


But yes the same thing has occurred to me. Palin was also ultra-conservative but she was also very vocal about it and she was loud and alienated a lot of people. Ryan could probably do better if he keeps quiet. lol

I don't think I posted this here. I checked a few things about Ryan after the announcement was made. Ryan, a Catholic, has been married for nearly 12 years. He has 3 kids. Can't seem to find their exact ages. Either Mrs. Ryan is very good at basal body temperature recording or they don't have a lot of sex or they are using some of that nasty birth control. I do acknowledge there could have been a hysterectomy or something.

If a person is running on banning abortion and contraception I think it out to be fair game to ask questions on this stuff, don't you?

[Stampin Wrose]

Originally Posted by raquelita_uno

I had the opportunity to meet a local candidate this past week who was going door to door to introduce himself. Seems like a nice guy and he was in favor of an issue important to me (paying back the schools that the legislature "borrowed" from to balance the budget) but unfortunately I'm turning into a single issue voter and I really hate it! This particular canditate planned to vote against gay marriage in our state this year and is against reproductive choice. (I won't use the term pro-life or anti-abortion because everyone I know is pro-life and would rather there be fewer abortions). I absolutely can not support anyone who puts their religious beliefs ahead of everyone else's rights. Perhaps someone would say I am putting my beliefs ahead of everyone else also, but at least my beliefs don't force anyone to do something or forbid them either.

I would say that's two issues that are important to you! But - I agree.

I guess I don't agree with the direction Romney wants the money to flow, and I do agree with the general Democrat platform of helping those less fortunate. I DO feel that sense of obligation that those who've done well should be concerned about those who have not had opportunity. (I also think if the trend against that continues, we should prepare for revolution. And perhaps with the advancement of the police state, they are!)

But besides that, I am DEFINITELY voting on social issues this election. Some years it hasn't been of primary importance, because neither candidate was looking to regress 50 years into the past.

But this year? I don't care how nice you are, if you are anti-reproductive rights and anti-gay anything, you don't have my vote.