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Old 04-09-2012, 04:04 PM   #1401
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Way to scare children - tell them they have to do *fill in the blank* or they'll go to hell, and reinforce and reward that behavior constantly.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:03 AM   #1402
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Yeah, I have never been into scaring people into doing right out of a sense of great reward on the other side. To me, that makes you a little more shady than the rest because you are only doing <fill in the blank> out of fear or anticipation of what will happen after you die. I would rather do what is right now...on THIS earth.

Stampin Wrose...I do love your George Clooney quote!
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:18 AM   #1403
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Yeah, I have never been into scaring people into doing right out of a sense of great reward on the other side.
I agree. I once accused a woman of using Jesus like Santa Claus to try to scare her (and my) kids into behaving. She was not amused by my comparison. I thought it was completely accurate in her case.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:36 PM   #1404
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So, my question of the hour is this: When holiday or sympathy cards go out, what sort of cards do you make? My dilema has always been whether or not to use a religious sentiment because of the person I am sending the card to. I feel kind of silly stamping a bible verse or something of the like on a card; but then the other side of me says that if the recipient believes, why not just stamp it right on there What do you do?
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:59 PM   #1405
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I never use religious sentiments on any sort of card because first and foremost I need to be be true to myself. For sympathy cards I put a sentiment I would like to hear. It may be just 'Thinking of you' or 'I'm so sorry for your loss'. Even a devoutly religious person would not be offended by that.
I gave up doing Christmas cards several years ago and now I send New Year cards to people I want to stay in contact with. New Year cards are easy: Happy New Year' is all you need!
Stephanie
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:19 PM   #1406
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Thanks, Parkes! I always go back and forth on what to say in cards because I have many friends who are deeply religious and don't realize that I am not In reading past posts and the original thread burried on page 3, I guess I could take a minute to formally introduce myself Here goes...

I have never "come out" so to speak. My closest friends and family are well aware of where I stand but casual friends are not. People who don't really know me probably think I am a nut because I am probably the only Athiest who listens to the Catholic chanel on sattelite radio! I like to refer to myself as a "Fallen Catholic". I was brought up by a Catholic dad and a Methodist mother and baptised as Catholic when I was about 11. Mother died when I was 12 and I went to live with my devout Catholic aunt and uncle. Left home, married a Muslim. Had a baby, divorced him, got engaged to a nice Jewish boy. Broke it off with him and found another fallen Catholic who has held my hand as we have both jumped off the cliff and into what we now call being Anti Theists. I have not been a fan of organized religion since I was about 15 I suppose and flip-flopped back and forth over whether or not I actually believed in God until about 6-7 years ago. I don't, for the record, believe in God. I have a picture of Jesus at my desk at work because my boss gave it to me when I was having hard times and since I know it meant so much to her, I have kept it there right where I found it one morning when I came to work. It does not bother me that it sits there...it sits right next to a fabulous quote from Archbishop Dolan so I feel like it's in good company. I have a daughter who wants to be baptized as a Mormon when she turns 18 and hopes that one day I will be saved and feel the love in my heart that she feels in hers. It pains me that she wants to become part of ANY religion, much less that one, because I do believe that religion is all about mind control and I always considered her far too independent for that.

That's my story. Hope I did not bore you all to death!!
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:39 PM   #1407
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Hi Mel. Your story is fascinating. So many religions in your life. I really liked the bit where you said you had found someone who held your hand as you both jumped into the unknown. That was so sweet. Here in New Zealand things are quite different. We do have a mix of religions but we are a secular country so religious issues are kept out of schools and other public institutions. No prayers at sports games, no religious verses on public buildings etc.
All my family are atheists (parents and siblings) so I haven't had any family pressure to go the religious route. My dad was bought up a Methodist but it lost all credibility for him when he was 13 and was learning science in school. My mum's parents were both atheist so on her side non-belief goes back a few generations.
It was great to hear your story - thank you for sharing.
Stephanie
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:14 PM   #1408
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It's been an interesting journey, that's for sure! From the "Moonies" to the Scientologists, I have hung out with them all I think Heart breaking as some of it was, I would not take any of it back for anything...it's made me who I am! I can honestly say that this was not a choice made in haste but rather an educated choice and one that was quite liberating in the end. I have enjoyed reading lots of stories in these threads and hope to see more in time
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:18 PM   #1409
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I had to giggle about the comment above on coupons...it reminded me of a poster that said "Jesus Saves" and underneath, it said "But he saves more on double coupon day" Cracked me up.
.
I laughed at that too, but couldn't think of anything else to post, but you reminded me .... back in 1981 (I remember distinctly!), at the corner of Granville and Broadway in Vancouver, I saw graffiti that said in huge letters:
"Jesus saves ...... but Mohammed invests" I thought it was hilarious then, and still do.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:25 PM   #1410
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I never use religious sentiments on any sort of card because first and foremost I need to be be true to myself. For sympathy cards I put a sentiment I would like to hear. It may be just 'Thinking of you' or 'I'm so sorry for your loss'. Even a devoutly religious person would not be offended by that.
I gave up doing Christmas cards several years ago and now I send New Year cards to people I want to stay in contact with. New Year cards are easy: Happy New Year' is all you need!
Stephanie
I completely agree. You have to be true to what's inside you. There are so many nice things you can say. I do still send Christmas cards because I think it's every bit as much a secular holiday as a religious one--I will gladly send "peace on Earth", but no manger scenes. And I might say "Season's Greetings" or I might not. I have a Jewish friend who faithfully sends beautiful holiday "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings" cards, so her just-being-niceness has influenced me.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:15 PM   #1411
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Okay, I have a question for the Catholic crowd . . .

As I've said previously (I think), I was raised Anabaptist, but married a Christmas-Easter Catholic (kinda opposite scales, on the Christian line). Because of other reasons, our kids have ended up in Catholic school (other than the religion, so far a good thing). Anyway, Sunday was Easter, so we were at mass. There was extra-incense, I'm sure. I despise the smell (my husband likes, so I guess others do too). It permeated my whole self. First I got headache (it did wear off). Then it started irritating my eyes. I was trying to subtly cover my nose and breathe, but by the end of mass, my mouth was bone dry, and my throat was burning. Apparently I was looking "pained." I really was--but trying not to (don't get me started on the music, which also caused pain!!). Anyway, I met my family at the van and told them I was walking home. It was a glorious spring day, and my reward for suffering through it was breathing deeply the warm spring sunshine!

So does incense in church make anyone else sick? I see the Catholic church has put out a warning for alter-kids, but anyone else? I can't believe I'm the only person who feels sick. Is this entirely psycho-psychosomatic?
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:12 AM   #1412
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So does incense in church make anyone else sick? I see the Catholic church has put out a warning for alter-kids, but anyone else? I can't believe I'm the only person who feels sick. Is this entirely psycho-psychosomatic?
I don't have experience with incense in church (I was raised Methodist), but I had one yoga teacher who insisted on burning incense in class. It just about killed me. So many people complained that she finally did quit burning it. I can't stand going into the soap and detergent aisle at the grocery store either. I'd love it if stores would pull all of the unscented products out to the end of the aisle so that people sensitive to scented stuff could get their things without traveling the entire length of the aisle.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:16 AM   #1413
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It never really bothered me, maybe when you are around it often enough you become immune to it I am one of those who kind of liked it. It sticks with you, that's for sure...I could smell it while I was reading your post! haha! You can't be the only one who does not like it and it could have been a combination of feeling uncomfortable and the more you notice something, the more it tends to irritate...does that make sense? Probably could not wait to get out of there as it was and then add to it the incense...then the headache...yep, I can see it You are surely not alone!
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:07 AM   #1414
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So, my question of the hour is this: When holiday or sympathy cards go out, what sort of cards do you make? My dilema has always been whether or not to use a religious sentiment because of the person I am sending the card to. I feel kind of silly stamping a bible verse or something of the like on a card; but then the other side of me says that if the recipient believes, why not just stamp it right on there What do you do?
I always make non-religious cards for these occasions. I would feel like a hypocrite otherwise. An exception is one specific manger scene, which I ONLY send to my niece and nephews. (It was sooooooo cute I wanted to buy it soooooooo badly). It's fake enough so that I DON'T feel like a hypocrite. Also, my (very religious!) sister comforted me by telling me that any major "religious" Christmas scene is highly inaccurate (in her opinion), and so if I wanted to buy it and use it on Christmas cards for her kids, they would love that and not all of a sudden think that I was now a Christian.

Also one year I also made another exception for my favourite (now-retired) co-worker. She was my favourite person to debate religion with. I drew a manger scene - one of those made of wood, so it was "fake" enough for me and symbolic enough for her. She loved it and already knew that I am an atheist, so there was no chance of her misunderstanding (and thinking that I was actually a Christian).
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:18 PM   #1415
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So, my question of the hour is this: When holiday or sympathy cards go out, what sort of cards do you make? My dilema has always been whether or not to use a religious sentiment because of the person I am sending the card to. I feel kind of silly stamping a bible verse or something of the like on a card; but then the other side of me says that if the recipient believes, why not just stamp it right on there What do you do?
Welcome Mel! I would never use a religious sentiment. I would use the "thinking of you" or "sharing in your sorrow" type of sentiment.

I recall reading or hearing someone gleefully announcing that they always send Christmas cards to Jewish friends. Makes me wonder how close they are to these friends.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:24 PM   #1416
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Okay, I have a question for the Catholic crowd . .

So does incense in church make anyone else sick? I see the Catholic church has put out a warning for alter-kids, but anyone else? I can't believe I'm the only person who feels sick. Is this entirely psycho-psychosomatic?
I recall sort of liking it. Never affected me adversely. I don't recall it bothering anyone I knew. How close were you to it? I am definitely leaning toward the psychosomatic theory in your case, Lol
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:52 PM   #1417
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Stampin Wrose...I do love your George Clooney quote!
Thanks!

Been a busy couple days with my friends over to stamp today. So I'm just catching up.
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:57 PM   #1418
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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So, my question of the hour is this: When holiday or sympathy cards go out, what sort of cards do you make? My dilema has always been whether or not to use a religious sentiment because of the person I am sending the card to. I feel kind of silly stamping a bible verse or something of the like on a card; but then the other side of me says that if the recipient believes, why not just stamp it right on there What do you do?
I also don't use religious sentiments, especially bible verses! I will put Merry Christmas on some of my cards, but not most. But my cards aren't religious either. Christmas is a very secular holiday - or can be.

I also celebrate St. Pat's Day but only because I'm Irish.

I have a few Jewish friends and they get Christmas cards (and send some!) but will get the "Season's Greetings" or "Peace on Earth."

I have been told that the Stampin' Up set, Thoughts and Prayers, has a different name and NONE of the "praying" stamps in the set in the UK version.

My closest Jewish friend always sends me St. Pat's cards, too. And another Jewish friend, when we lived in Florida, would wear his Kelly green yarmulke to my St. Pat's parties. He was not orthodox and rarely went to temple, but he found that thing and loved it.

So I guess my friends and I simply aren't the seriously religious types - or not at all. (Me=not at all)
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Old 04-11-2012, 06:58 PM   #1419
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Okay, I have a question for the Catholic crowd . . .

As I've said previously (I think), I was raised Anabaptist, but married a Christmas-Easter Catholic (kinda opposite scales, on the Christian line). Because of other reasons, our kids have ended up in Catholic school (other than the religion, so far a good thing). Anyway, Sunday was Easter, so we were at mass. There was extra-incense, I'm sure. I despise the smell (my husband likes, so I guess others do too). It permeated my whole self. First I got headache (it did wear off). Then it started irritating my eyes. I was trying to subtly cover my nose and breathe, but by the end of mass, my mouth was bone dry, and my throat was burning. Apparently I was looking "pained." I really was--but trying not to (don't get me started on the music, which also caused pain!!). Anyway, I met my family at the van and told them I was walking home. It was a glorious spring day, and my reward for suffering through it was breathing deeply the warm spring sunshine!

So does incense in church make anyone else sick? I see the Catholic church has put out a warning for alter-kids, but anyone else? I can't believe I'm the only person who feels sick. Is this entirely psycho-psychosomatic?
I hated it when I was a kid, and just thinking of it, not great, but not quite so bad. I have not minded some incense at home on occasion, but DH hates it so I pretty much only burn it if he's not around.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:30 PM   #1420
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So funny! I don't have any perfume/scent sensitivities and ADORE the smell of incense. There is something about it that takes me back to the pagentry of mass as a kid...before I found out that I wouldn't be allowed to be an alter server! Also, I've been fortunate to participate in Day of the Dead celebrations (IMO wonderful pagan rituals thinly veiled as a Catholic celebration) and the use of copal is pretty extensive. Love that smell!
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:04 PM   #1421
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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I have more problems with idiots that dunk themselves in perfume before going to a movie or, better yet, a show where you can't change your seat!
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:18 PM   #1422
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I also celebrate St. Pat's Day but only because I'm Irish.
Since I was a kid I've always loved St. Patrick's Day, and I don't have a drop of Irish in me. I think it's just the time of year--in Vancouver we'd have these sunny, blowy, spring days, and daffodils were blooming and everything was GREEN. I loved it. It made me want to run and do cartwheels and rub my nose into a pony's neck. I didn't know that I was supposed to be in my cups before I did all that!
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Old 04-11-2012, 08:34 PM   #1423
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I hated it when I was a kid, and just thinking of it, not great, but not quite so bad. I have not minded some incense at home on occasion, but DH hates it so I pretty much only burn it if he's not around.
I normally don't have much of a problem with incense in the home, if subtle, and I generally love aromatherapy products and quality scented candles (but never dollar store vanilla or lily!). With the Catholic mass incense, it's different. Part of it is psycho-psychosomatic, I'm sure, but not all. And some of it is that I think it's a foul smell . . . but the burning eyes and throat have got to be from the smoke itself. I can't imagine it's good for people with asthma. I have noticed that they lay it on especially thick at Easter (not so much when we go at Christmas).

The Irish government is looking into this, since they have workplace secondhand smoke laws, they think this falls under the same thing. From what I found on the internet, it does lead to respiratory cancers, but one has to have a lot of exposure. Apparently Buddhist monks are hit the hardest.

There was a moment in mass when the priest flicked "holy" water at the crowd, and I whispered to my daughter that if it hit me I'd start screaming "I'm melting, I'm melting . . . " Before I was an agnostic, I was taught that all these Catholic rituals were little different from witchcraft (and by that they weren't referring to actual Wicca, but something more amorphous and nefarious), so it all fits together.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:49 AM   #1424
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@StampinWrose-- a kelly green yarmulke! That's fantastic! I can see how your friend loved that little find.

Actually, speaking of that, I do have a grumble that I think (...hope!) fits in this forum.
Although we're not religious, we're curious about other cultures and traditions. The campus Hillel club (Jewish) hosted an open-to-the-public Passover seder last Thursday. Never having been to one, we attended. We got there early and found seats after helping out with some of the setup. It became very obvious very quickly that there were cliques within this club; not only did none of them sit anywhere near us, but freely threw stink-eyes the entire time. All the while, may I add, performing this ancient ritual about rising above persecution! I mean, wow... talk about chutzpah, literally!
We ended up leaving early... no doubt to sotto voce mutters about being disrespectful of the Jewish culture.

No, I don't think now that all Jews are this way. But to holler about religious intolerance... then make it clear outsiders are unwelcome, especially while doing that hollering... okay, I can't finish this sentence. I can only shake my head and get back to homework.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:29 PM   #1425
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There was a moment in mass when the priest flicked "holy" water at the crowd, and I whispered to my daughter that if it hit me I'd start screaming "I'm melting, I'm melting . . . " Before I was an agnostic, I was taught that all these Catholic rituals were little different from witchcraft (and by that they weren't referring to actual Wicca, but something more amorphous and nefarious), so it all fits together.
Now THAT is funny!!!!




Have you ever seen "Wicked"? Awesome show.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:32 PM   #1426
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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@StampinWrose-- a kelly green yarmulke! That's fantastic! I can see how your friend loved that little find.

Actually, speaking of that, I do have a grumble that I think (...hope!) fits in this forum.
Although we're not religious, we're curious about other cultures and traditions. The campus Hillel club (Jewish) hosted an open-to-the-public Passover seder last Thursday. Never having been to one, we attended. We got there early and found seats after helping out with some of the setup. It became very obvious very quickly that there were cliques within this club; not only did none of them sit anywhere near us, but freely threw stink-eyes the entire time. All the while, may I add, performing this ancient ritual about rising above persecution! I mean, wow... talk about chutzpah, literally!
We ended up leaving early... no doubt to sotto voce mutters about being disrespectful of the Jewish culture.

No, I don't think now that all Jews are this way. But to holler about religious intolerance... then make it clear outsiders are unwelcome, especially while doing that hollering... okay, I can't finish this sentence. I can only shake my head and get back to homework.
Yeah that is pretty ballsy.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:18 PM   #1427
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That is the problem I have found among every religion I have experienced. They all preach about loving thy neighbor but once they leave their place of worship, they go back to their own ways of living and thinking. The vast majority of them miss the point completely.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:10 PM   #1428
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I think the problem with religion is that humans practice it. The book teachings (like my grammar? LOL) are wonderful. The reality is faulty humans get put in the mix and it all goes south from there I think.

Oh and hi to the new faces here. I think I'm one of the few here who have never believed in god or subscribed to any religion.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:23 PM   #1429
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Yes, religion is practiced by humans with faults. I can appreciate that.

But what I don't appreciate is when people want to make me live by their beliefs. Legislating religious beliefs really moves me to action. A lot of religious people are not like that, and I appreciate that.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:19 AM   #1430
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I have a quote on my desk at work...and I am paraphrasing here because I can't off the top of my head remember exactly... Let us focus on helping others in their time of need rather than imposing on them what we think they should believe.
I agree 100% with sewsplendidstamper, it's the people for the most part that wreck the whole thing. The self rightous ones who think that they have it all down are the ones who are the furthest from the truth. I don't have a problem with people who subscribe to religion; it's the arrogance of thinking they are the only ones have it right that bothers me the most.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:00 PM   #1431
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I haven't visited here in a while-thought it might make for some good Sun. afternoon reading, ha. Living, as I do, here in the heart of Rick Perry land, I usually keep my thoughts and opinions to myself. I believe that my religious beliefs, or lack of, are no one else's business. The first time I saw A's and A's here I was amazed and pleased. I'll tell you some more about myself next time.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:08 PM   #1432
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I haven't visited here in a while-thought it might make for some good Sun. afternoon reading, ha. Living, as I do, here in the heart of Rick Perry land, I usually keep my thoughts and opinions to myself. I believe that my religious beliefs, or lack of, are no one else's business. The first time I saw A's and A's here I was amazed and pleased. I'll tell you some more about myself next time.
Welcome! You're not alone down here in (gag) Rick Perry land!
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:28 PM   #1433
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I haven't visited here in a while-thought it might make for some good Sun. afternoon reading, ha. Living, as I do, here in the heart of Rick Perry land, I usually keep my thoughts and opinions to myself. I believe that my religious beliefs, or lack of, are no one else's business. The first time I saw A's and A's here I was amazed and pleased. I'll tell you some more about myself next time.
Hi and welcome too! I am an atheist with atheist parents so my experiences of religion have been somewhat on the fringe. At least apart from a neighbour who was concerned about the poor heathens next door and took my sister and I to Sunday School occasionally. Needless to say it didn't stick!
Stephanie
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:53 PM   #1434
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"gag" is right. The way I refer to him in public probably wouldn't make it past the censors. I was raised in church and spent most of my life being very active . It was the right wing Christians and churches that drove me away. Not just evangelical and fundy churches, either. I experienced things that I don't hesitate to call evil in 2 different Episcopal churches. After leaving the church I began to see what was taught and believed in much the same way I came to see Santa Claus at 7 years old... not much reality to it.
So much hatred from people who profess to be all about love. I simply refuse to "Hate a gay for Jesus."
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:58 PM   #1435
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Just reread my first sentence and don't know how to edit. Of course, that should be what I call him in private.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:57 PM   #1436
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You are welcome Sammie, and thank you Alyson. It's near and dear to my heart unfortunately.

I was being a little snotty when I asked that Sammie I'm always surprised at the "Well WHAT do you believe in?" view I hear about when people find out someone is an atheist. Um I believe in respecting people and things, being kind, educated, funny, honest, open and happy. I believe that the Earth rotates around the sun and bacon goes with everything. I believe that if you put out positive intentions you get back positive. I believe that tattoos, piercings, hairstyles, clothes and cars do NOT make the man. I believe that if I am a good human I get what I deserve whether that is good or bad depends on the day. I've had crap and sheer joy in my life and it never once made me question my belief. I believe witnessing is akin to trying to sell me something I don't want to buy. I believe my boys are sometimes the funniest creatures on the planet. I just don't believe in one "true god".
Finally! I've found you, my peers! A place where I might actually FIT IN! THANk you to the members of this thread for it's existance!

Amatore, the Moslems at my former workplace, before I retired, used to hold a meal after sunset during Ramadan, at which we were all welcome. Unlike your situation at the Seder, I remember being warmly welcomed and freely included. It's one of the few things about work that I miss.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:38 PM   #1437
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Hi Linda and welcome! That is nice you were welcomed at the Ramadam meal. Do stop by for a chat any time you want!
Stephanie
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:57 PM   #1438
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Welcome suber and Linda! I was very relieved to find this thread, too! The believers usually leave us alone although once in awhile one sees the thread and is incredulous that we have a space here.

Come back any time.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:27 PM   #1439
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Finally! I've found you, my peers! A place where I might actually FIT IN! THANk you to the members of this thread for it's existance!

Amatore, the Moslems at my former workplace, before I retired, used to hold a meal after sunset during Ramadan, at which we were all welcome. Unlike your situation at the Seder, I remember being warmly welcomed and freely included. It's one of the few things about work that I miss.
Uh oh! You think you found a fit with me? Heaven help you lol

I admit I was reading this on my phone at first and thought, wow that quote sounds like something I'd say It's been a long weekend here. Sick kids make for fried brains.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:40 AM   #1440
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I just saw this and thought some of you might want to participate:

If Atheists Talked Like Christians… (A Contest)

Some of the current entries:
I'm not an atheist. I'm just a follower of Reason.
I love the believer, hate the belief.
I will think for you.
I just found a parking spot up front! Thank random chance!
Google Maps is my co-pilot!
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