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Old 03-16-2012, 01:47 PM   #1361
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Hi Greg! Welcome!
First off, I know I'm odd, even among atheists and agnostics. I have never felt spiritual at all, by any stretch of the imagination. This goes beyond Christianity. I have never understood anything like yoga or meditation either. I never successfully grasped the concept of the word "spirit" - I don't know how someone's "spirit" is different from just their "mind" and "emotions".
So, I don't feel spiritual at all when I'm making cards or colouring. I DO feel a very deep sense of satisfaction and contentment, especially when the colour comes out exactly as I envisioned. I also feel this deep sense of satisfaction and contentment when I'm eating something extraordinarily delicious, so...I'm pretty sure it isn't anything spiritual.

Every so often, there IS the feeling while watercolouring, that it is what my fingers and eyes have been searching for all their lives - not watercolour pencils, not chalks, not water-based markers, not crayons, not pens, not pencils, but WATERCOLOURS (over the last year I've come to feel this way about Copic markers as well). That's the closest I guess, that I've ever come to um... spirituality? (or maybe I am more clearly demonstrating my lack of understanding of the concept of spirituality).

Thank you soooo much for your compliments on our cards!!!
I DO send 90% of the cards I make to my niece and nephews, who save them in big boxes and look through them periodically. My sister says they also get very excited when they get them in the mail. So, yeah, they do treat the cards as precious items - notes of love I guess.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:19 PM   #1362
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Greg, what a wonderful post.

I am an atheist but I believe strongly in compassion and justice and helping one's fellow man. What bothers me so much is that if you say you are not Christian, it is assumed you have no moral guidepost.

Regarding stamping. I got into stamping after my divorce. It was a painful time and stamping kept my hands and mind busy and off of all my troubles.

But I stayed with stamping because of the creativity. Yes, I do go down to my basement craft room (which I really should call an art studio, we tend to denigrate what we do as just "crafty") and indeed 3 hours later I look at the clock. Usually that means the rice on the stove has scorched and ruined the bottom of my pot.

I also very much love the warm friendships and social nature of stamping. Getting a few of my stamping buddies around my craft table for an afternoon gives me so much joy.

Finally, I love the final product (usually). Sometimes I can't bear to mail them off, but I do. I'll confess that I save the very best and send them to my fellow stampers, knowing they will appreciate them.

In terms of waterfast inks - I usually use StazOn black when watercoloring an image. Either that or heat emboss the outline. That has the added benefit of restricting runs outside the border of the image.
Hey Marge, that's funny about the burned rice. I've done that too. I've got to remember to set an alarm. I also like what you say about saving the best for your fellow stampers. I'm also on a poetry website, and I share all my best poems there, as it's much more rewarding then sending something out and even if it gets published having no idea how people responded to the poetry.

I think the unnoticed passing of time is a key indicator of a spiritual experience. I hesitate to use that word. But I'm not sure how else to characterize it. That sense of looking at the clock with amazement, and wondering if it could be right, three hours gone. Thanks for your thoughts. I much appreciated them
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:29 PM   #1363
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Sorry to cut your quote down, Greg, but I was very interested in your comments on spiritiality. I paint (watercolours) as well as make cards and when I am painting I sometimes experience that same feeling of being 'in the flow' where time passes unheeded, and when the painting is finished I am filled with a sense of wonder at what I have done. Unfortunately spiritiality and religion have become so entwined that I am now reluctant to call myself 'spiritial' for the religious connotations it has.
Humans are creative creatures by nature which has nothing to do with religion or what we purport to believe or not believe. Children are atheists until they are taught to believe in a particular religion, but we are all born creative. I guess I see 'creativity' as the ultimate religion, as a way of experiencing the world and sharing that experience.
Stephanie
Hey Stephanie, I agree that people are creative. I've never run into anyone who didn't have some creative project going, whether it be children or snowblowers. Everybody makes something out of something. If there's any one definition to being human, I think that's it. I guess that's what's troubling to me about some people's response to organized religion. They take someone else's word about how they should feel about something, instead of checking their own imagination. It's a missed opportunity to explore one's self. I like your thought about creativity as the ultimate religion. As for children being atheists, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I taught a paper making class for K4 through 6th grade, and the kindergarten kids were a strange and wonderful lot. They didn't seem to be quite human, having otherworld concerns I found almost familiar but also baffling. I wouldn't begin to want to tell them what to believe. It's much more interesting to let them try and explain things to me. LOL. I went to your gallery and checked some of your cards. They were stunning. I have a similar interest in botanicals. I've got hundreds of clover I took from my backyard that I'm entranced by. I pulled them out with their roots intact. I pressed them dry, and all winter I'd go down in the basement and just look at them. I don't know why it gave me so much pleasure to stare at them. I almost didn't want to put them in paper, as I was afraid I might ruin them. Hmmmm.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:36 PM   #1364
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Hi Greg! Welcome!
First off, I know I'm odd, even among atheists and agnostics. I have never felt spiritual at all, by any stretch of the imagination. This goes beyond Christianity. I have never understood anything like yoga or meditation either. I never successfully grasped the concept of the word "spirit" - I don't know how someone's "spirit" is different from just their "mind" and "emotions".
So, I don't feel spiritual at all when I'm making cards or colouring. I DO feel a very deep sense of satisfaction and contentment, especially when the colour comes out exactly as I envisioned. I also feel this deep sense of satisfaction and contentment when I'm eating something extraordinarily delicious, so...I'm pretty sure it isn't anything spiritual.

Every so often, there IS the feeling while watercolouring, that it is what my fingers and eyes have been searching for all their lives - not watercolour pencils, not chalks, not water-based markers, not crayons, not pens, not pencils, but WATERCOLOURS (over the last year I've come to feel this way about Copic markers as well). That's the closest I guess, that I've ever come to um... spirituality? (or maybe I am more clearly demonstrating my lack of understanding of the concept of spirituality).

Thank you soooo much for your compliments on our cards!!!
I DO send 90% of the cards I make to my niece and nephews, who save them in big boxes and look through them periodically. My sister says they also get very excited when they get them in the mail. So, yeah, they do treat the cards as precious items - notes of love I guess.
Ah, Sophie, I'm going to resist the urge to insist that your feelings of satisfaction and deep contentment are spiritual. I don't think that you're having those notions towards various food items disqualifies them as spiritual markers, but hey, I'm content to work my own program and let you work yours.

I wouldn't want to say that spirit is different than mind or emotions. It's all rolled up into one thing in there, and I couldn't begin to sort it out.

I had to laugh about your relationship to watercolors. I have the same relationship with my pressed botanicals. The delicate, translucent ones get me right where I live. I have some pressed clover in my basement I've been looking at all winter. I'll go down there for an hour or so after supper. My wife asks me what I'm doing in the basement and I'm not sure what to tell her. Oh well.

What a nice thing that your family appreciates your art! It must be gratifying to hear their responses to your cards. That's worth more than money.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:13 PM   #1365
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Apparently excommunication isn't really what she wants, as that's apparently considered a state of separation from which the church hopes you will repent and get out of.

--snip--

Alyson, interesting site, I'd never heard of this before. I never even thought of doing anything formal. I guess I just walked away and don't care what anybody thinks.
Thanks, Wrose & Alyson -- it'll give my daughter and me something to think about. Personally, I think the walking away works quite well, but she's a bit intense.

In her Catholic high school, she has to take religion every year. At the beginning of the year when she found out she got Mr. Chapman, she freaked out because she'd heard how "hardcore Catholic" he is . . . . by the end of September, and many, many conversations about her religion class, I said to her "you don't hate Mr. Chapman as much as you think you would, do you?" Turns out he's a philosophy major, so he's thrown some pretty challenging stuff at them. I went to meet him during parent-teacher conferences, and the guy is like 26 years old (I imagined some stern old man). He says he doesn't want people to consider his class "an easy A" so he makes them work. Some of the stuff she's does is stuff I did in university (this is a grade 10 class).

Anyway, for the first 5 months of the year she was getting 98%. Now she's dropped to 94% after her father and I said that it wasn't really the area to focus on considering universities don't consider religion grades for admission. So she brought her math up to a B+. But Mr. Chapman LOVES her--because she's engaged, and comes to class with a mitt-full of papers she's printed out from the internet that she says "what about this?" I think she has a future as a litigation lawyer.

It's been an interesting year.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:19 PM   #1366
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First off, I know I'm odd, even among atheists and agnostics. I have never felt spiritual at all, by any stretch of the imagination. This goes beyond Christianity. I have never understood anything like yoga or meditation either. I never successfully grasped the concept of the word "spirit" - I don't know how someone's "spirit" is different from just their "mind" and "emotions".
.
Oh, come on Sophie.....have you never seen those really cool sun rays that shoot out of clouds, usually at sunset, when the conditions are right, have you never seen those and thought "Oh my god, you're real after all!"?

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Old 03-16-2012, 09:24 PM   #1367
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I have never understood anything like yoga or meditation either. .
I LOVE both yoga and meditation (meditation is a bit difficult, and so I don't often do it), but I don't consider either to be spiritual. (Although I know they are for lots of other people). Psychologically and physically healthy, yes. But spiritual? No. Not for me. I guess I'm not a very spiritual person either (unless I see those really cool sun rays ....see my previous post)
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:44 PM   #1368
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I agree, I don't consider yoga or meditation to be spiritual. They are ways of calming and relaxing your body and mind. "Being able to appreciate beauty" is the definition of spiritual that I am most comfortable with. Anything else smacks of religion or airy fairyness.
Stephanie
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:07 AM   #1369
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I'm sorry to be provocative, but I don't believe that most of you stamping folks, (sorry if I use "us" "them" language, but I'm more a paper maker who's interested in stamping, as opposed to a legitimate stamper) are unbelievers in matters of the spirit. I look in your galleries and see that you are about the business of beauty, and that's a pretty powerful spiritual pursuit. I don't believe you can be involved in it and not touch on some kind of "inner" spirituality.

Unfortunately, people who claim to be about the business of spirit often tend to not act in a very spiritual manner, and so now the language of spirit is all confused with the language of power and control, which seems to be a feature of many organized religions, and so it's difficult to talk about spirit, or see it for what it is.

Kathy, thanks for that comment from Stephen Colbert. It's exactly on point. In what sense are politicians like Rick Santorum trying to advance the agenda that Christ laid out in the Sermon on the Mount? I get very confused by folks who purport to be Christian but don't seem to love people. How do they understand their Christianity? Shouldn't it have something to do with healing people for free, with giving away wine at weddings, with feeding people who are hungry? According to the bible, when the soldiers came for Jesus, Peter leapt to Jesus's defense and cut off a soldier's ear. Jesus wasn't happy about that and told Peter to stop, and replaced the ear of the soldier. So, if you are a Christian, and you are following the teachings of Christ, when you are attacked, what should you do?

Stephanie, thanks for your thoughts on our strange culture here, and for giving us some insight into yours. When I was in high school we had a foreign exchange student from New Zealand. He was a brilliant golfer and seemed to appreciate beer as much as we did. Those being two of my interests at the time, I found him to be quite excellent company.

Nickelini, hopefully the US can keep its problems from travelling beyond the borders, but I'm doubtful. Our manias have a tendency to travel.

But let me ask you folks this. When you're stamping, do you feel some sort of inner movement, growth, some sort of warmth, or like you're about something that doesn't involve just yourself? I know when I make paper I'm in a different place. Time passes without my being aware of it. I feel like I want to share what I've done, but I'm unsure how to do that. My imagination is filled with my paper making experience, and I feel "drawn" to do more. It all has the feel of a communion of sorts with something organic, that is both inside and outside myself. It's a hard experience to talk about. When I see what you folks have done, I get the sense that there's a lot more going on than card making. Some of your cards are so beautiful that to actually use them as cards seems beside the point. They should be set up and displayed in your homes as art, and understood that way.

Well, sorry to digress. I wake up early thinking about these sorts of things and can't get back to sleep. Guess I should get to another thread and find out what anyone knows about waterfast inks.

Greg
One of my sisters has worked for years at a Catholic University that used to be all women and has a lot of nuns there. She tends to sound like a nun. It would probably annoy me more if I lived closer. (We're 2800 miles apart.) But she sees God in everything. I simply don't. I can still feel all warm and fuzzy about a beautiful landscape, and in fact, this week spent two days driving up from the Bay Area of California via 101 to the northern coast, just into Oregon, and back. Absolutely breathtaking. The redwoods - some take as proof of God. But the science is there. I can't argue, but I appreciate the beauty without believing. Some people don't understand that.

Sometimes I think Christianity is so popular because it's always a win-win situation. If you pray for something and you don't get it, it's a lesson for you. If you do get it, then God has answered your prayers. Everything is so easily explained. Sometimes I guess that's comforting to people.

I can't imagine it was comforting when, a few years ago, there was that awful mine cave in that one (?) miner survived. Remember at first when they thought they'd found a handful alive. One grandmother was heard to tell her 8 year old grandson that he had prayed hard enough and his father was alive. Then they discovered these men were not alive after all. So what does that kid think now? He didn't pray hard enough??? How awful. That has always haunted me.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:09 AM   #1370
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Finally, I love the final product (usually). Sometimes I can't bear to mail them off, but I do. I'll confess that I save the very best and send them to my fellow stampers, knowing they will appreciate them.
It's been interesting to see that we all do that. Well not always a fellow stamper, but someone we know appreciates them.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:12 AM   #1371
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Thanks, Wrose & Alyson -- it'll give my daughter and me something to think about. Personally, I think the walking away works quite well, but she's a bit intense.

In her Catholic high school, she has to take religion every year. At the beginning of the year when she found out she got Mr. Chapman, she freaked out because she'd heard how "hardcore Catholic" he is . . . . by the end of September, and many, many conversations about her religion class, I said to her "you don't hate Mr. Chapman as much as you think you would, do you?" Turns out he's a philosophy major, so he's thrown some pretty challenging stuff at them. I went to meet him during parent-teacher conferences, and the guy is like 26 years old (I imagined some stern old man). He says he doesn't want people to consider his class "an easy A" so he makes them work. Some of the stuff she's does is stuff I did in university (this is a grade 10 class).

Anyway, for the first 5 months of the year she was getting 98%. Now she's dropped to 94% after her father and I said that it wasn't really the area to focus on considering universities don't consider religion grades for admission. So she brought her math up to a B+. But Mr. Chapman LOVES her--because she's engaged, and comes to class with a mitt-full of papers she's printed out from the internet that she says "what about this?" I think she has a future as a litigation lawyer.

It's been an interesting year.
That's excellent. I went to a Jesuit University (after 12 years of Catholic school) and the Jesuits also challenge you to think.

Interestingly, I was never taught that the bible was literal. I was taught that it was a religious book, not a history book or a science book. I was taught in the early grades that those "7 days" in Genesis weren't days as we think of them, 24 hours, but a way to describe things so that we could grasp it. I was never taught that creation and evolution were mutually exclusive. I suppose it was more of what we call today Intelligent Design - that God certainly guided creation. Of course that's to be expected in a Catholic School.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:13 AM   #1372
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Oh, come on Sophie.....have you never seen those really cool sun rays that shoot out of clouds, usually at sunset, when the conditions are right, have you never seen those and thought "Oh my god, you're real after all!"?

I used to think it looked like God's hands were showering out the light. Or something like that.

Of course I can still *feel* that beauty, but I just no longer attribute it to some supernatural being.
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:31 AM   #1373
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Oh, come on Sophie.....have you never seen those really cool sun rays that shoot out of clouds, usually at sunset, when the conditions are right, have you never seen those and thought "Oh my god, you're real after all!"?

Well, uh, cool sun rays (and nature in general) don't really awe me; I don't even like being outdoors.
I did private-message you about what DOES make me think "oh my God, you're real after all".
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:47 AM   #1374
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Ah, Sophie, I'm going to resist the urge to insist that your feelings of satisfaction and deep contentment are spiritual.
Greg, you do not have to resist this urge. If you tell me that these feelings ARE spiritual, I would take you at your word, because as I said before, I have NO IDEA what spirituality IS. I had the impression though, that spirituality MUST be um... "deeper"? Satisfaction and contentment are concepts I can easily grasp, because I have felt them. I can easily see that spirituality would INCLUDE these feelings, but... it MUST be something MORE...? Or not?

This is why I don't think I've ever had a spiritual feeling - otherwise at the first mention of the word, I would've been able to summon up a memory of feeling spiritual.

I remember times when I've felt overwhelmed by breathtaking wonder and awe (seeing Paris for the first time). Probably that is the closest thing ever that I've felt to having a spiritual experience. Walking amongst French-speaking crowds, hearing the beautiful language just tripping and falling over me - that beautiful, wondrous, ethereal language which MUST have been invented by angels whose business is pure beauty for the sake of beauty... the phrase "a balm for my soul" came to mind (even though I also don't know what a "soul" is). Hearing the beautiful words and phrases spoken by strangers to each other expressing perfectly common things - having those words and phrases slide in through my ears and flow through my veins... I've often wondered if the resulting magic of that is what Christians mean when they say they have "Jesus living in their hearts" - if it feels like magic coursing through their body. So for me it would be the French language (spoken by NATIVE French speakers from France) instead of Jesus.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:51 AM   #1375
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Greg, you do not have to resist this urge. If you tell me that these feelings ARE spiritual, I would take you at your word, because as I said before, I have NO IDEA what spirituality IS. I had the impression though, that spirituality MUST be um... "deeper"? Satisfaction and contentment are concepts I can easily grasp, because I have felt them. I can easily see that spirituality would INCLUDE these feelings, but... it MUST be something MORE...? Or not?

This is why I don't think I've ever had a spiritual feeling - otherwise at the first mention of the word, I would've been able to summon up a memory of feeling spiritual.

I remember times when I've felt overwhelmed by breathtaking wonder and awe (seeing Paris for the first time). Probably that is the closest thing ever that I've felt to having a spiritual experience. Walking amongst French-speaking crowds, hearing the beautiful language just tripping and falling over me - that beautiful, wondrous, ethereal language which MUST have been invented by angels whose business is pure beauty for the sake of beauty... the phrase "a balm for my soul" came to mind (even though I also don't know what a "soul" is). Hearing the beautiful words and phrases spoken by strangers to each other expressing perfectly common things - having those words and phrases slide in through my ears and flow through my veins... I've often wondered if the resulting magic of that is what Christians mean when they say they have "Jesus living in their hearts" - if it feels like magic coursing through their body. So for me it would be the French language (spoken by NATIVE French speakers from France) instead of Jesus.
Hey Sophie, I don't know what others mean by spirituality, but the things you describe above are what I mean. I've never felt anything more spiritual than deep contentment. It can happen out of the blue. Then it goes away.

I think the French might share your understanding of their language in conjunction with the spirit, and probably many of them would agree. A philosopher or religious thinker might go on about logos, or some other thing. Others have thought that perhaps language is a virus. As might the spirit be. I don't know. You've put my conception of spirit better than I could have. If you've never had a spiritual thought, then I probably haven't, either.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:02 PM   #1376
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Hi everyone,

I've been reading this forum for quite a while, but this is my first post here.

I saw this interview recently in Time magazine with Sting, whom I've always admired, both as a musician and as a person. I tore out the page and saved it because I liked what he said.

The following question and and Sting's answer seem to fit in this discussion about spirituality. It spoke to me, and his words express very well how I've come to feel about religion in general:

"When asked your religion, you write "devout musician." Does that mean that you pray to Angus Young?

"It's not a frivolous answer. I'm essentially agnostic. I don't have a problem with God. I have a problem with religion. I've chosen to live my life without the certainties of religious faith. I think they're dangerous. Music is something that gives my life value and spiritual solace."
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:43 PM   #1377
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Hi everyone,

I've been reading this forum for quite a while, but this is my first post here.

I saw this interview recently in Time magazine with Sting, whom I've always admired, both as a musician and as a person. I tore out the page and saved it because I liked what he said.

The following question and and Sting's answer seem to fit in this discussion about spirituality. It spoke to me, and his words express very well how I've come to feel about religion in general:

"When asked your religion, you write "devout musician." Does that mean that you pray to Angus Young?

"It's not a frivolous answer. I'm essentially agnostic. I don't have a problem with God. I have a problem with religion. I've chosen to live my life without the certainties of religious faith. I think they're dangerous. Music is something that gives my life value and spiritual solace."
That is interesting!!
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:49 PM   #1378
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Hi buggainok and welcome! I liked Sting's answer very much - thanks for sharing that.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:39 PM   #1379
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I remember times when I've felt overwhelmed by breathtaking wonder and awe (seeing Paris for the first time). Probably that is the closest thing ever that I've felt to having a spiritual experience. Walking amongst French-speaking crowds, hearing the beautiful language just tripping and falling over me - that beautiful, wondrous, ethereal language which MUST have been invented by angels whose business is pure beauty for the sake of beauty... the phrase "a balm for my soul" came to mind (even though I also don't know what a "soul" is). Hearing the beautiful words and phrases spoken by strangers to each other expressing perfectly common things - having those words and phrases slide in through my ears and flow through my veins... I've often wondered if the resulting magic of that is what Christians mean when they say they have "Jesus living in their hearts" - if it feels like magic coursing through their body. So for me it would be the French language (spoken by NATIVE French speakers from France) instead of Jesus.
\\

Well, that reminds me of feelings I've felt in my travels. The most outstanding example is all my life I wanted to live in the English countryside, and when I finally got there on my 2nd trip to England when I was 46, I stood and cried. My kids and husband (who grew up with summers in Tuscany) thought I was joking. But I was just overwhelmed by finally making it there and it was so beautifully like everything I'd ever dreamed.

I'd call it spiritual.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:57 PM   #1380
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\\

Well, that reminds me of feelings I've felt in my travels. The most outstanding example is all my life I wanted to live in the English countryside, and when I finally got there on my 2nd trip to England when I was 46, I stood and cried. My kids and husband (who grew up with summers in Tuscany) thought I was joking. But I was just overwhelmed by finally making it there and it was so beautifully like everything I'd ever dreamed.

I'd call it spiritual.
Yeah!! Like that!! I remember another thing about Paris. I felt that it was literally heaven on earth. Even with the dog crap in the streets, and the smell of cigarette smoke and car exhaust every now and then and a few men peeing in the streets - still, it was soooooooooo charming that I just could NOT believe that SUCH a place existed in REAL LIFE. Paris was not the first place I had traveled to, my parents took me to many places when I was young, including Hawaii, which many people consider close to paradise! I never had this type of reaction to a place though. The moment I stepped out from the underground subway passageway, I was just overwhelmed with awe and wonder. At night, I looked out the hotel room's window and was SHOCKED to see a MOON. I could not believe Paris was on the SAME PLANET as my own home town (which I DO like a lot; it's just not PARADISE is all) and that Parisians saw the same moon as I did back home. I just could not work it into my physical being that Paris was actually REAL and I was actually there, in real life. It boggled my mind that not only was it real, there were people who LIVED there, who were there EVERY DAY!!!! I tried not to think about that, because whenever I did, I would be overwhelmed by heartsick envy and jealousy. I struck up a conversation with a Parisian who mentioned that he liked to travel. I stared at him in amazement and replied that he LIVED in Paris, WHY would he EVER EVER EVER leave it???

Even the most mundane things were beautiful and charming, because there was French printed all over it. I took photos of cereal boxes and stacks of phonebooks. I went into post offices and took their free pamplets and brochures (the ones meant for the residents, not the tourists).

Possibly I could feel this way about ANY city or town in France. It's just that Paris is the only French city I've been to.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:08 PM   #1381
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Hi everyone,

I've been reading this forum for quite a while, but this is my first post here.

I saw this interview recently in Time magazine with Sting, whom I've always admired, both as a musician and as a person. I tore out the page and saved it because I liked what he said.

The following question and and Sting's answer seem to fit in this discussion about spirituality. It spoke to me, and his words express very well how I've come to feel about religion in general:

"When asked your religion, you write "devout musician." Does that mean that you pray to Angus Young?

"It's not a frivolous answer. I'm essentially agnostic. I don't have a problem with God. I have a problem with religion. I've chosen to live my life without the certainties of religious faith. I think they're dangerous. Music is something that gives my life value and spiritual solace."
I like this part of his answer... "gives my life value and spiritual solace".
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:14 PM   #1382
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Music can give me that feeling. I remember when I was growing up, hearing various symphonies come to town, mom would take us, and I had this thing in my head about violins, and wondered if they could ever sound like what was in my head. I don't know where that came from because we didn't even have a Hi-Fi (yeah, 50s and 60s), so it's not like I had heard it anywhere. And then I went to hear - I think it was a Boston Symphony - travelling around and conducted then by Michael Tilson Thomas. And the violins - they were PERFECT. They were all together, they were wonderful, magical and what I had dreamed about and thought was impossible for humans. Yes, goosebumps. I guess that was a spiritual experience.

An add on here - DH got tickets for us to see the San Francisco Symphony, with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting, in May. Beethoven's 6th, the Pastoral. I have been playing the symphony CD that I have periodically just to be even more familiar with it. That was my birthday present, I told him that was what I wanted. We live in the Bay Area so will just take Bart up to the city for that. I was in Davies Symphony Hall only once, to see Craig Ferguson in Sept. 2010, and it was beautiful too.
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:44 AM   #1383
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I came here to post something else, but I saw your reference to Michael Tilson Thomas, Kathy, and it reminded me of the NPR interview with him that I heard yesterday.

Apparently he's from a Jewish family (his father changed the last name from Thomashefsky) in which all the men for generations were either Jewish cantors or Yiddish performers. It was a fascinating conversation, promoting a PBS special on Great Performances which was produced by him about his grandparents: The Thomashefskys: Music and Memories of a Life in the Yiddish Theater - About the Program | Great Performances | PBS

Might be something to look into
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:48 AM   #1384
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Default The Reason Rally

I don't know how many of you knew about The Reason Rally, or maybe attended it (I would have, if I was still outside DC), but I wanted to post my favorite costume:

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...778710-120.jpg (did you know there's a plaster version at Ken Hamm's Creation Museum?????)

And my two favorite signs:

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...783896-133.jpg

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...32778483-7.jpg
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #1385
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I don't know how many of you knew about The Reason Rally, or maybe attended it (I would have, if I was still outside DC), but I wanted to post my favorite costume:

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...778710-120.jpg (did you know there's a plaster version at Ken Hamm's Creation Museum?????)

And my two favorite signs:

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...783896-133.jpg

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...32778483-7.jpg
I saw some of the speeches on the internet. Too bad it was so rainy. Those are both creative signs. Love them!

On Sunday "Up with Chris Hayes" (MSNBC) spent the entire 2 hours on atheism. It was pretty good except that Hayes talks too much.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:04 PM   #1386
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Alyson, that's very interesting, I didn't know that much about him at all!

And thanks for the signs! Yes, it would have been nice to go to that.
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:04 PM   #1387
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Martha, wow, two hours on shhhhh, atheism? Le Gasp!!!
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:37 AM   #1388
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I have a cousin who continually send me message that assume I'm a beiever. Don't want to offend her, so I use the DELETE Key a lot.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:38 AM   #1389
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I have a cousin who continually sends me messages that assume I'm a beilever. Don't want to offend her, so I use the DELETE Key a lot.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:56 AM   #1390
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I saw some of the speeches on the internet. Too bad it was so rainy. Those are both creative signs. Love them!

On Sunday "Up with Chris Hayes" (MSNBC) spent the entire 2 hours on atheism. It was pretty good except that Hayes talks too much.
How refreshing this conversation is. I love the photo "Because Thinking is Hard".
Right On!
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:00 PM   #1391
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I have a cousin who continually sends me messages that assume I'm a beilever. Don't want to offend her, so I use the DELETE Key a lot.
You're not alone. I get less and less all the time, though.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:36 PM   #1392
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On a recent visit to my parents' house, I saw them looking at coupons. I asked if they got them from the Sunday paper. My dad said no. My mom said that they don't need a paper; all they need is the Bible, and that _I_ should read the Bible, and God would tell me where to go. I know she meant that "God would show me the path I should follow" but English is her second language. I was SO delighted by her choice of words that I didn't even get irritated. < laughing > "God would tell [me] where to go". I immediately (and delightedly) thought "yup, God would tell me to 'Go to hell!'" I just said nothing and successfully refrained from even chuckling.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:36 PM   #1393
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On a recent visit to my parents' house, I saw them looking at coupons. I asked if they got them from the Sunday paper. My dad said no. My mom said that they don't need a paper; all they need is the Bible, and that _I_ should read the Bible, and God would tell me where to go. I know she meant that "God would show me the path I should follow" but English is her second language. I was SO delighted by her choice of words that I didn't even get irritated. < laughing > "God would tell [me] where to go". I immediately (and delightedly) thought "yup, God would tell me to 'Go to hell!'" I just said nothing and successfully refrained from even chuckling.
So they get their coupons from God?????
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:07 PM   #1394
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So they get their coupons from God?????
LOL No, they got them in the mail.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:28 PM   #1395
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LOL No, they got them in the mail.
Ha ha ha ha ha! Well you had me wondering!
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:33 PM   #1396
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Just came across this section out of boredom Glad I did! I did not know there were "others" out there! I had to giggle about the comment above on coupons...it reminded me of a poster that said "Jesus Saves" and underneath, it said "But he saves more on double coupon day" Cracked me up.
Anyway, what brought me to join in on this thread was a comment that I came across while reading about how people think that if you are not religious that you have no moral compass. I feel that way all the time!! I live in a community where religion is what gets people out of bed in the morning and they truly believe in their hearts that if you are NOT part of that group, that you cannot be trusted and are not worthy of their friendship. Sometimes it is more than I can handle. I don't want to convert anyone to my way of thinking but I do think that it is (at the risk of sounding like a 4th grader) well, it's just mean. I don't lie, cheat or steal. I don't sacrifice goats. I don't sit in my living room smoking pot, drinking whiskey and watching porn. I respect my husband and I love my children. I love to craft and cook and find new decorating ideas on Pinterest. Just because I don't go to church does not make me a bad person.

Believe it or not, just typing that out to a bunch of strangers has made me feel a little better Thanks for having a forum for me to say this in.
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:49 PM   #1397
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Hi Crafty Mel and welcome to our thread. I am so glad you found us and that you are feeling a bit better already. I also find the thought that without religion I have no moral compass abhorrent. In fact it can be argued that we don't need one and it is Christians that don't trust themselves to behave well on their own account. They can't tell right from wrong so have to have things listed for them like in the 10 commandments.
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:52 PM   #1398
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Welcome, Mel!

Oooh, you must be surrounded by religious folk where you live!

It IS easier when you live in, say, northern California, not too far from San Francisco. People don't ask automatically. Sure there are lots of very religious people around but there are also a lot who are not - so nobody assumes.
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:53 PM   #1399
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Hi Crafty Mel and welcome to our thread. I am so glad you found us and that you are feeling a bit better already. I also find the thought that without religion I have no moral compass abhorrent. In fact it can be argued that we don't need one and it is Christians that don't trust themselves to behave well on their own account. They can't tell right from wrong so have to have things listed for them like in the 10 commandments.
Stephanie
LOL!! Excellent point. Sometimes I like to ask, "you mean you don't know right and wrong without being told?"

Sheesh.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:01 PM   #1400
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Just because I don't go to church does not make me a bad person.
Hi Crafty Mel!
Actually, the religious people who surround me are pretty good about this. When I was a child, my dad (very religious) explained to me that a LOT of GOOD people are going to hell (I was worried about my cousins), because whether someone goes to hell or not has nothing to do with how good or bad they are - just whether or not they are "born again".
Being born one time is good enough for me.
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