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Old 12-16-2011, 07:01 AM   #1281
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Just wanted to mention that Christopher Hitchens died. I read his book, "God is not Great, how religion poisons everything." He'd been battling cancer.
I'm going to miss him. He was always interesting. Christopher Hitchens Dead: Legendary Writer Dies At 62

Just want to add that his short book on Mother Teresa is a must read. There's also a documentary on Mother Teresa that he did that I watched on YouTube a few years ago. Not sure if it's still available, but also worth tracking down.
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:15 AM   #1282
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Just wanted to mention that Christopher Hitchens died. I read his book, "God is not Great, how religion poisons everything." He'd been battling cancer.
What a shame he had to leave so soon. What a great writer and passionate advocate for atheism. I read God is Not Great too, Wrose. I read the book on Mother Theresa, Nickellini. It was a real eye-opener! I'll have to look for the video.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:02 PM   #1283
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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I'd read some about Hitchens and Mother Teresa, but will have to read the whole story. Our library has it, so I'll get it after the holidays.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:04 PM   #1284
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Did anyone else see this last August?

If you can get to Madrid for World Youth Day, you get freebie forgiveness for your abortion.

Quote:
Oh boy, the Vatican, no doubt patting itself on the back for being so generous to the filthy sluts of the world, has set up a six-day event in Madrid where ladies who've had abortions can come and confess in order to escape the automatic excommunication they otherwise would get.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:18 PM   #1285
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Good article on the tax exempt status of churches and how maybe we should consider revoking that.....

How We All Pay For the Huge Tax Privileges Granted to Religion -- It's Time to Tax the Church | | AlterNet

It starts off:

Quote:
Would the world be better off without religion? That was the topic of a recent debate in the NYU Intelligence Squared series. One of the audience questions concerned the enormous wealth hoarded by churches, which Christian apologist Dinesh D'Souza defended as follows:
Quote:
I think in the case of the Vatican, the wealth of the Vatican is in priceless treasures, tapestries, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, art. Now, let's remember... it was popes, the Medici popes and so on, who commissioned those paintings. If it wasn't for Catholicism, we wouldn't have the Sistine Chapel.
This was the only line of the night that got boos from the audience. It's easy to see why, since D'Souza was clearly trying hard to overlook the obvious reply: The reason it was the church that commissioned those artworks, and not some other buyer, is because the church had all the money! The great composers, painters and sculptors of the Renaissance worked for whomever could afford to pay them, which is why they often ended up working for the church even when they were notorious freethinkers, as in the case of Giuseppe Verdi. If it wasn't for Catholicism, we might not have the Sistine Chapel, but it's a near-certainty that we'd have different artworks, equally majestic and famous, by the same artists. As Richard Dawkins has suggested, wouldn't you love to hear Beethoven's "Evolution Symphony"?
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:03 AM   #1286
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Post Found the youtube video

It's called Hell's Angel:Mother Theresa -a documentary Hitchens did,presumably to promote his book. Not sure if it is the entire documentary or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78f3xGVR0Ks
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:49 PM   #1287
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Thought you folks might appreciate this:



Have a happy holiday, whatever the form
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:21 PM   #1288
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Very nice, Alyson!!

Happy Holiday to you, too!
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:00 PM   #1289
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Thanks Alyson! And a merry Axial Tilt to you!
Stephanie
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:54 PM   #1290
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I wish everyone a Happy Solstice or Saturnalia or Yule Tide. Enjoy.
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Old 12-23-2011, 06:01 AM   #1291
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Axial tilt - LOL
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:18 AM   #1292
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@AlysonRR-- thanks for that image. I sorta snitched it, after enjoying a good laugh!

It's good to see this thread. Happy Merry Axial Tilt Etc., one and all...
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:19 AM   #1293
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Originally Posted by AlysonRR View Post
Thought you folks might appreciate this:



Have a happy holiday, whatever the form
That's one I haven't heard before. I think I like it!
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Old 12-24-2011, 09:53 AM   #1294
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This is my new holiday anthem
A Christmas Carol For The Rest Of Us - YouTube
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:42 AM   #1295
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Happy Festivus everyone! And a merry axial tilt to all.....
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Old 12-25-2011, 08:16 AM   #1296
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Has anyone seen that house shown on Yahoo decorated as the Angry Birds game? Go take a look. It has the music, and if you show up in person, you can actually play the game!!! Now THAT is holiday spirit!
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:11 AM   #1297
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The annual re-play of Tim Minchin's other-side-of-the-axial-tilt (Australia) carol - "White Wine in the Sun" : White Wine In The Sun by Tim Minchin - YouTube
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:13 AM   #1298
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And another cartoon - the author will give $$$ to Doctors without Borders for every person who links to it:

Calamities of Nature - What Christmas Is All About

Happy Axial Tilt! (or Happy Christmas, to those who celebrate)
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Old 12-25-2011, 01:01 PM   #1299
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Ahh, a quiet, secular Christmas, enjoying gifts, smiles, hugs, and good food. I did tell DH and DD that, back in the day, we would have been gleefully saying, "Yay, Christmas is on a Sunday, we only have to go to Mass once!" LOL
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:11 AM   #1300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose View Post
Ahh, a quiet, secular Christmas, enjoying gifts, smiles, hugs, and good food. I did tell DH and DD that, back in the day, we would have been gleefully saying, "Yay, Christmas is on a Sunday, we only have to go to Mass once!" LOL

YIKES. Does that bring back memories. How many of us have those memories of dread and anxiety tied to our recollections of being sucked into organized religion. Religion would probably be a lot more popular if it weren't so freaking Organized.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:16 AM   #1301
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Originally Posted by AlysonRR View Post
Thought you folks might appreciate this:



Have a happy holiday, whatever the form
Love it, haha!
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:05 PM   #1302
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YIKES. Does that bring back memories. How many of us have those memories of dread and anxiety tied to our recollections of being sucked into organized religion. Religion would probably be a lot more popular if it weren't so freaking Organized.
LOL Well said!
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:56 PM   #1303
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We're having a lovely secular holiday visit with DH's brother's family. And the biggest grumpy party-pooper in the entire world, their mother, decided to be "sick" and not come. So we're having an extra great time this year!
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:06 PM   #1304
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Hahaha, Chris. That's funny. "Every party needs a pooper, that's why we invited you!" Got that running through my head now.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:10 PM   #1305
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Ahhhh.... Everyone is gone and my house is my own once again.... And by "everyone" I mean the MIL. My 22 year old has gone home and my 19 year old is with friends, but both of them together can't talk as much as she can.
We did have a very nice moment last night with the extended family, when my cousin surprised his girlfriend of ten years with an engagement ring. Don't think I've ever seen her speechless before!
Hope everyone made it through the weekend unscathed.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:25 AM   #1306
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I could use some helpful opinions here.

I am not religious (I classify myself, when forced, as an atheist with pagan tendencies). My husband is Catholic. He tries hard to go to church weekly, our kids are doing Catechism on Wednesdays.

He has known the whole time that I'm not religious. The priest who married us knew and didn't seem bothered. I promised to raise (allow him to raise) the kids Catholic - they've all been baptized in the church.

Our oldest (who is 9) is a handful. He hates Catechism and tells them so. His new thing is to tell them that his mom "doesn't have religion" and doesn't go to church so why should he? We got a letter in the mail today telling us this little nugget. I told my husband that I won't lie to my son and I don't want to go to church, but if he has any ideas to let me know.

Any thoughts? Any similar situations? I hate to disappoint my husband, but I won't compromise what I believe, either. Hellllllp.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:27 AM   #1307
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Hi Nicole and thank you for sharing your predicament. It is not one I am personally familiar with as all my family, and my partner and myself, are athiest but I sympathise with you fully. I am interested that the church seems to think it is your fault your son isn't interested in what they are teaching him. Surely the responsibility is theirs to make their teachings accessable to a child if they want that child to believe in what they teach? And surely he isn't the only nine-year old in the history of the Catholic church to rebel this way?! I think that the best you can do is explain to your son that you believe in the scientific method of finding out about the world, and your husband believes in the bible. That you will answer any questions he has about what you believe in and why, and he can ask his dad the same things. Then he can decide for himself. Easier said than done I know, but you are doing the right thing by getting support for yourself here.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:27 PM   #1308
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I have not faced this myself. Well actually I have but from the other perspective. When I was still a believer, I finally let my daughter stop going to church at 16 or 17. My son who is 5 years younger continued to go with me for several more years.

The only thing I can suggest is that this comes under the "I'm the parent you are the kid" so for now your father and I will decide whether you go or not. We will revisit this when you are 12 or 13. DS should be spoken to about his attitude and disrupting class. If you don't get good reports on his behavior he will lose privileges. Is he a handful in his regular classes? That's the strict parent plan.

I guess the other approach is for DH to talk regularly to DS about what is being taught in his class and why he thinks it's important to learn this so he knows his father's faith and later he can decide for himself.

I guess I was one of those people who couldn't figure out how else you would teach a kid morals without religion.
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:27 PM   #1309
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My mom let my brother stop going to church when he was about 9. My dad didn't go (he's agnostic) and my brother used the same line: 'why do I have to go when dad doesn't'. He occasionally attended youth group activities at a bigger church later in his teens, mostly to be with girls, LOL, and he was heavily recruited by my then-boyfriend (who headed up a Young Life chapter in a nearby town).

My kids have asked to go to church once or twice apiece, but when it comes time to actually head out they each decide against it. They understand that their dad and I don't believe in god, and a bit about the major religions.

We go at morals from a secular humanist perspective of kindness, fairness, tolerance, and respect, with a heavy emphasis on the universal 'treat others the way you want to be treated'.
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:50 PM   #1310
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I liked what Stephanie said, it reminded me of my FIL when we were first married - not at all related to religion but he apparently wanted DH to get further schooling (DH has a BSEE and MSEE; FIL was pushing for him to get his PE certification and/or MBA). He'd come to visit and take me aside and tell me that DH should be taking classes. I just looked at him and said, "He can go for more schooling if he'd like, I haven't heard him express any interest." Like he thought I was holding him back!

I started taking my kids to CCD classes too. DH is not religious but believes in God. I wanted them to have some kind of exposure and had grown up Catholic so was comfortable with it, if not exactly active. I told DH if he had another preference, he was welcome to take them! The kids were not enthusiastic but we went, I think because CCD was after mass, and they got to have donuts first in the auditorium!! But DS was in third grade when he'd had enough, and I didn't push.

When I finally admitted a few years ago that I no longer believed in god, DS said he hasn't ever believed that he can remember!

I think everyone has had good advice. You can make him go, but you can't make him drink the Kool-Aid.

It's like the old saying, "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:08 PM   #1311
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You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think.



Hahahaha, love that quote!!

So it looks like my husband's solution is to not do anything about it right now. This kid doesn't usually go for the 'because I said so' attempts, and he is famously stubborn (gets it from his dad). He goes to church and can behave himself well enough, so I don't think he is anti-religion.

I think he is trying to get kicked out permanently, but I refuse to mention it to him in case he thinks that is a confirmation of what might happen. Maybe my husband should just teach the catechism classes (heh).

Thanks for chiming in everyone - I appreciated your viewpoints.
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:15 PM   #1312
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Nicole, I'm glad your husband isn't arguing with you either. I've rarely met a child who couldn't wait to go to Catechism. Seems like it's always "I have to go."
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:58 AM   #1313
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I'm still figuring out where I fit in, if anywhere.

One thing's for certain, though. If you feel driven to: 1) go door-to-door hard-selling your beliefs, 2) LITTER (e.g. those tiny "comic books" left everywhere that aren't fear-mongering or biased at all ), and 3.) condemn anyone who doesn't agree with you, well...

...maybe your version of "love" is kinda sorta bent all to hell. Just sayin'.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:41 PM   #1314
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AMEN. (Is it OK to say that?) I totally agree.
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:12 PM   #1315
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Quote:
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AMEN. (Is it OK to say that?) I totally agree.
It is ok to say that but you need an exclaimation mark as in 'Amen!' !
Stephanie!
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Old 01-18-2012, 07:34 PM   #1316
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Found two articles I wanted to share for discussion with other atheists / agnostics... the first on "outward displays of faith" such as Tebow. Also, that term makes me think of a religious PDA (public display of affection).


Commentary: Some Thoughts On Outward Displays Of Faith
Columnist Ponders Tim Tebow's Rise In Popularity

By Derrell Connor
Special To Channel 3000

I believe in God and Jesus Christ.

I believe in creation. When I look around the earth and all of the things in it -- trees, mountains, animals, oceans -- I feel it has to come from somewhere, some power that's beyond our understanding.

The human body is so awesome, so complex, that I feel that it's by design. When I look up at the sky during the day, the moon and stars at night, I often wonder what else is out there besides the planets that we've discovered. I believe that there is a heaven and hell. Not the devil, pitchfork and raging fire that are sometimes illustrated in pictures, but in an eternal damnation sense. I'm not affiliated with any religion, but I consider myself a spiritual person.

I know that there are many who feel the way I do, just as I know and understand that for some, they may believe that there is no God, no Jesus, no higher power or Supreme Being. No matter your feelings, I respect you and your right to believe whatever you want. After all, I don't know if what I believe in is right or wrong. I don't know the answers and I won't pretend to. But I will say that for most believers, religions and spiritual relationships with God and Jesus Christ are important, deep and very personal. It is the foundation for which many live by. Some keep it to themselves, while others wear it on their sleeves.

Which brings me to Tim Tebow.

This season Tebow has been one of the feel-good stories in the NFL. A 2007 Heisman trophy winner from the University of Florida, he was drafted in the first-round by the Denver Broncos in 2010 and became the starting quarterback beginning the sixth game of this season, where he has lead the Broncos to a division title and an upset playoff win against the Pittsburgh Steelers. On the surface, it's the classic underdog story. Ever since high school, Tebow had been told he didn't have the tools to play quarterback for a big-time college program, let alone the NFL big leagues. He has defied the odds, and made believers out of some who wrote him off. As a result, he has developed quite a following, especially in the city of Denver. But that's not the only reason.

Tebow is very religious, and he is very open about his beliefs. He is often seen praying on the sidelines and in the end zone after a Broncos touchdown. He wears his favorite Bible verse, John 3:16 on his eye-black tape. In interviews, he often talks about his beliefs, and he thanks Jesus Christ after each Broncos win. For his outward displays of devotion he has garnered both praise and criticism. Some see him as a breath of fresh air, while others feel it's over the top, forced for the television cameras, even phony.

It's certainly not my place to question someone's religion. I think that Tebow is probably sincere in his faith. But it does bother me when folks in sports and entertainment thank God after they win something, as if God has a personal stake in a team, actor/actress or singer. Whatever happened to giving thanks for being blessed with the talent and ability to do the extraordinary things that you do? Or that no one was hurt? Or praying for someone's recovery? When did people start believing that God was only on their side, and not anyone else's? And what about the other players who are religious but aren't outward like Tebow? Does God care about them any less?

Tim Tebow and others certainly have the right to openly display their devotion if they wish. But I think that there is a responsibility to not leave the impression that God cares about wins and losses, or who wins a Grammy award. If open displays of prayer on a football field is fine with folks, great.

Now let's imagine if he were Muslim.

Derrell Connor works in the insurance industry in Madison and hosts a weekly radio show on WIBA AM.



Commentary: Some Thoughts On Outward Displays Of Faith - Madison News Story - WISC Madison
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:39 PM   #1317
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I've been desensitized. I no longer care if someone thanks God for anything and everything. I've heard my mom thank God for the water she uses to clean the floor. I figure it's just their way of showing their gratitude for whatever they are grateful for. I know when some people thank God for their health (or whatever) it may seem that God is withholding His blessings (or whatever) from someone else with worse health and so on. But then since the people with worse health are also likely to be Christians (since I have the impression that 95% of America is Christian) - I figure I'll leave it up to them to sort it out - usually they thank God for something else.

I'm probably being naive, but I don't think anyone would care (any more than they currently do) if Tebow was Muslim. I mean, instead of the Christian community praising him, it would be the Muslim community praising him and then maybe holding him up as an example of a moderate Muslim; one who's not bent on terrorism. The same people who are criticising him now for openly displaying his beliefs would probably also still criticize him if he were Muslim (wouldn't they? Maybe not as hard, since Islam is not the main religion here). I'm sure in France the critism would be about the same, since over there I have the impression that it's 50% Christians and 50% Muslims. But over here, it's still a very large Christian majority.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:42 AM   #1318
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Coincidentally, there was a post on Friendly Atheist relating to this.

After Surviving a Car Accident, God Doesn’t Need a Thank-You | Friendly Atheist

I agree with Hemant - it's a little shocking to read an account of an accident in which there is no mention of god because it's so commmon...
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:46 AM   #1319
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There were funny comments on the Golden Globes about the phenomenon, too: Ricky Gervais & Actress Meryl Streep Crack ‘God’ Jokes During Awards Show | Video | TheBlaze.com

Awards shows, sports, illness and accidents. I'd rather see direct intervention in war and poverty.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:49 AM   #1320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlysonRR View Post
Coincidentally, there was a post on Friendly Atheist relating to this.

After Surviving a Car Accident, God Doesn’t Need a Thank-You | Friendly Atheist

I agree with Hemant - it's a little shocking to read an account of an accident in which there is no mention of god because it's so commmon...
Alyson - where's the "like" button! Thanks for sharing.
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