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Old 10-10-2011, 10:45 AM   #1201
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Good one Kim!
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:08 PM   #1202
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Just in case anyone was wondering, the reason we haven't been attacked since 9/11 is because MLB started singing "God Bless America" along with "Take Me Out To The Ball Game" during the 7th inning stretch.

Quote:
Bryan Fischer of the conservative Christian group the American Family Association floated an interesting theory about why there hasn't been a "Muslim attack" since Sept. 11 during his speech before the Values Voter Summit on Saturday.

"By God's blessing, we have not been hit by a Muslim attack since 9/11," Fischer said. "I suggest that in part, we have Major League Baseball to thank. You remember that the week after 9/11 Major League Baseball converted the seventh inning stretch from the singing of 'Take Me Out To The Ballgame' to the singing of 'God Bless America.'"
Major League Baseball Prevented Another 9/11, Says Value Voters Speaker (VIDEO) | TPMMuckraker

Please note the use of the phrase "Muslim attack" with no modifier like "extremists" or anything to distinguish from peaceful Muslims.

But you can bet your sweet bippie that if anyone calls himself a Christian and does anything like that, the AFA and other Christians will say, "That person wasn't a Christian."
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:10 AM   #1203
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Oh, Fischer's been driving me nuts, particularly that he has a national platform despite his very controversial opinions, which include:
- the religious liberty of non-Christians is not protected by the First Amendment
- separation of church and state "mythical"
- none of "our unalienable rights" will be safe if a President who believes in evolution is elected
- secular government and the theory of evolution led to genocide in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and Maoist China
- direct quote: "I believe we need a president who understands that just as Islam represents the greatest long term threat to our liberty so the homosexual agenda represents the greatest immediate threat to every freedom and right that is enshrined in the First Amendment, it's a particularly threat to religious liberty"

And the Values Voters Summit still chose him to speak? They didn't advertise him on their website, but he spoke after Mitt Romney, which is ironic since Fischer doesn't think Mormons have direct rights under the First Amendment.

Romney, to his credit, gave a mild and unnamed (but pointed reference) to Fischer's poisonous language, stating correctly that "It has never softened a single heart nor changed a single mind." And now Fischer's acting the victim, wondering aloud to anyone who will listen about why Romney "attacked" him. The guy deserves a dozen eyerolls and a place in obscurity.
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:38 AM   #1204
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I don't think Fischer has been on my radar. Oh goody! Another fundie who wants to tell everyone why they should behave the way God(He) thinks.

Someone should tell him the war against homosexuals is over. He lost but he refuses to surrender.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:06 PM   #1205
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I don't think Fischer has been on my radar. Oh goody! Another fundie who wants to tell everyone why they should behave the way God(He) thinks.

Someone should tell him the war against homosexuals is over. He lost but he refuses to surrender.
Yeah, today he's on about how we wouldn't have had slavery in this country if the Muslims hadn't started it - yup, sharia law in 1619 was responsible for slavery in this country, and of course it was "evangelical Tea-Party types" who ended it... Still appalled he has a national platform. Worse than David Barton. Bryan Fischer: Our first concession to Sharia law: slavery - RIGHTLYCONCERNED.COM
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:46 PM   #1206
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Yeah, today he's on about how we wouldn't have had slavery in this country if the Muslims hadn't started it - yup, sharia law in 1619 was responsible for slavery in this country, and of course it was "evangelical Tea-Party types" who ended it... Still appalled he has a national platform. Worse than David Barton. Bryan Fischer: Our first concession to Sharia law: slavery - RIGHTLYCONCERNED.COM
Maybe I'm off base here but...

I often wonder if these politicians who worry about Sharia law are concerned about the sway of Judaic law as it affects women and families in certain areas of NY and possibly elsewhere. Conservative Hebrew women aren't allowed to be considered divorced unless the "council" or whatever says they are.

Catholics have certainly had serious clout regarding civil investigations into child abuse cases. In many cases the civil authority wouldn't believe what they were being told and dismissed people's reports. Not to mention their opposition to birth control and abortion. No one complains about civil authorities deference to the Church.

What about the polygamous sects out West? They seem to be under no threat of arrest from the powers that be regarding their currently illegal actions of multiple wives and child marriages and keeping women and children captive.
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:57 PM   #1207
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Actually Warren Jeffs (?) has been/was on trial for his involvement in FLDS activities, right? So it's not entirely ignored in cases like that.

The bad thing of course is that this guy lumps all Muslims together. I don't know how some people can think like that.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:16 PM   #1208
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Wow. Just wow. So he wants to put a Christian theocracy in place so there can be no Islamic theocracy?
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:20 PM   #1209
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- none of "our unalienable rights" will be safe if a President who believes in evolution is elected

.
Anyone have a clue how he "reasons" this one out? I can't even imagine what it could be. Does he realize that Islam is against evolution too? Doesn't that put him on the same side?
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:03 PM   #1210
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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No critical thinking skills, no logic. I'd bet he never watched Star Trek.
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:41 PM   #1211
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Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose View Post
No critical thinking skills, no logic. I'd bet he never watched Star Trek.
ROFL
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:55 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by Stampin Wrose View Post
Actually Warren Jeffs (?) has been/was on trial for his involvement in FLDS activities, right? So it's not entirely ignored in cases like that.

The bad thing of course is that this guy lumps all Muslims together. I don't know how some people can think like that.
Yes Jeffs was convicted and is currently in prison. One of his wives left the group yesterday and was actually helped by police.

Things I have read and seen seem to suggest these groups aren't all that uncommon. Whether they all involve child marriage I don't know. I must admit to having watched Sister Wives a few times. It is painful to watch those women twist themselves into pretzels trying to pretend that it's just great trying to have a relationship with a guy who's also busy with 3 other women.

Will the Wife Who Fled Warren Jeffs' Fiefdom Become a Pawn in the FLDS Power Struggle?


from Double X by Torie Bosch



When I first read the headlines about a 25-year-old wife of imprisoned FLDS leader Warren Jeffs escaping—barefoot!—from her life in the abusive polygamist sect, I cheered. None of Jeffs' dozens of wives has ever before been reported to have abandoned her prophet; perhaps, I hoped, this was a sign that the deeply insular community is beginning to open up to the world. But unfortunately, I no longer think that’s quite the case. Rather, this woman’s escape may be part of the internecine battle for control of the FLDS, which has been in crisis—with some members leaving voluntarily and a new self-proclaimed prophet competing with an ailing Jeffs for followers—in the wake of Jeffs’ conviction for sexually abusing two underage wives.
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:41 PM   #1213
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This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever happened on! I definitely consider myself agnostic. I believe in a higher power that got the ball rolling but in no way is controlling the events that unfold everyday and who has no power to hand down punishments for sins invented by mankind. I remember the turning point in 5th grade when I met with my priest for some clarification of some glaring inconsistancies in the bible that we were learning about in ccd classes. If Adam and Eve only had Cain and Abel (and Cain offed his brother) then how did the rest of us get here....eeewwww. There is NO WAY that Noah got two of every animal in the world on any kind of boat. It wasn't very responsible of the disciples to abandon their families and jobs to follow Jesus around the country. And when Father asked for youngsters who were interested in being alter servers, he wasn't talking to me.

Our current puritanistic leaning in this country is driving me crazy. I don't want to know about anyone's faith...it's none of my business and I would love it if they would keep it that way. Everytime our representative Mrs. Bachman opens her mouth to evangelize, I cringe and can only find comfort in the fact that I don't live in her district. The

Thanks again for such an interesting and unique forum to express view points.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:35 PM   #1214
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Hi Rachel! Welcome!
Yes, according to (my interpretation of) the Bible, we are all children of in cest. One Christian friend of mine says the Bible didn't say that God DIDN'T make OTHER people completely unrelated to Adam and Eve... so it was conceivable that we are NOT the result of in cest. I said his theory would mean it was also conceivable then, that maybe God DID make an "Adam and Steve" then (usually the anti-gay Christians say well, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve).

Also, the good news is, in the last political-poll-related article I read (I don't read much so this is probably out-dated by now), Sarah Palin had come in second to last, garnering 3% support and Bachmann came in LAST, with only 2% support (Romney had come in first), so hooray. Also, of course since that article, Palin's announced she's not running, so, more hooray for that.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:37 PM   #1215
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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hi Rachel!

Thanks for saying hi!

I love your certainty about getting the animals on the boat, it made me laugh. We have a much more realistic understanding of exactly how many animals are on the earth. In the Catholic schools I attended, they made no pretense that it was science, it was a way of convening a message, a story with meaning. Something they could understand and empathize with. I think the backlash against our understanding of how things work does a disservice to a lot of people who feel the way you did. Maybe some force got it all started but anything that vast isn't going to give a crap over exactly how and when I genuflect.

Well, that's my gut feeling, anyway. lol
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:59 PM   #1216
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No critical thinking skills, no logic. I'd bet he never watched Star Trek.
LOL
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:11 AM   #1217
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I must admit to having watched Sister Wives a few times. It is painful to watch those women twist themselves into pretzels trying to pretend that it's just great trying to have a relationship with a guy who's also busy with 3 other women.
I actually don't have a problem with the Sister Wives family. They were all legal adults, consenting to a relationship they understood and agreed with (sorry for the purists, ending a sentence with a preposition).

Totally different situation from the FLDS people, including Warren Jeffs.

I hope social services has evolved enough to realise that "ignore me while I abuse your children", from various religious entities, is completely unacceptable.

And also totally different from "I want meat slaughtered the way my religion requires - can you do that?" from the kosher/halal folk. Or even "I want processed food I know my family can eat based on my religious requirements".

My atheist/agnostic family found value in the kosher markings for groceries while we coped with an extreme dairy allergy in our newborn son, so I may be biased. But I can't see a problem with private companies choosing to meet certain requirements in order to appeal to a larger (religious) market.

I don't care about people's religious rules as long as they don't inflict them upon me.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:51 AM   #1218
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I actually don't have a problem with the Sister Wives family. They were all legal adults, consenting to a relationship they understood and agreed with (sorry for the purists, ending a sentence with a preposition).
.
True, it's not the same as the FLDS. In the process of watching it and thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that's it's consenting adults. It is still a window into how these groups operate. I guess it all shows how if you're not raised to be a critical thinker, the things you knew as a child is what you fall back on as an adult.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:28 AM   #1219
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[QUOTE=AlysonRR;


I don't care about people's religious rules as long as they don't inflict them upon me.[/QUOTE]
I second that!
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:49 AM   #1220
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True, it's not the same as the FLDS. In the process of watching it and thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that's it's consenting adults. It is still a window into how these groups operate. I guess it all shows how if you're not raised to be a critical thinker, the things you knew as a child is what you fall back on as an adult.
Yes - I'm not sure about how to align my love for homeschooling with my disdain for families who, IMO, keep their children unaware of the wider world in order to (they hope) ensure their children believe as they do.

On the one hand, I would not want anyone telling me what I should or should not teach my children - as a parent, I consider that to be my job, even though I'm not currently homeschooling (we did for quite awhile, and one child would prefer it when we can manage, financially).

On the other hand, children who are raised to believe a particular way will typically believe what they've been taught, no matter how irrational and illogical their lessons.

This is something I've talked about with my kids - that if they were born in India they might "be Hindu", if they were born in Iraq they might "be Muslim", if they were born in Japan they might "be Buddhist", but since they were born in the US most people will assume they *are* Christian, even though we as parents have allowed them to have the choice to decide what they believe as independent persons. [Right now my daughter believes in an afterlife (she and her dad love "Ghosthunters) but not God, and my son believes in God, but (according to him) only because he thinks he has to in order to be in Boy Scouts.]

Anyway, I'm still not sure what I think about whether or not the public has a right to regulate how parents raise their children (in the absence of abuse). The Sister Wives family still doesn't bother me on that issue - their teenagers have varied opinions on the subject so they're obviously not being restricted to one lifestyle. The FLDS - totally different issue!
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:52 PM   #1221
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It is a genetic impossibility that the entire population arose from only two humans so I have often heard religous types say what your friend says about the bible not saying there weren't others as well. I am just so tired of all the rationalizing people do to respond to intelligent arguments against the fairy tales in the bible.

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Hi Rachel! Welcome!
Yes, according to (my interpretation of) the Bible, we are all children of in cest. One Christian friend of mine says the Bible didn't say that God DIDN'T make OTHER people completely unrelated to Adam and Eve... so it was conceivable that we are NOT the result of in cest. I said his theory would mean it was also conceivable then, that maybe God DID make an "Adam and Steve" then (usually the anti-gay Christians say well, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve).

Also, the good news is, in the last political-poll-related article I read (I don't read much so this is probably out-dated by now), Sarah Palin had come in second to last, garnering 3% support and Bachmann came in LAST, with only 2% support (Romney had come in first), so hooray. Also, of course since that article, Palin's announced she's not running, so, more hooray for that.
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:39 PM   #1222
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Honestly, I'm always surprised when anyone talks about taking the bible literally.

I'm sorry, it's a great religious book, full of good stories to teach your kids good values.

But a history book? No.
A science book? No.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:29 PM   #1223
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Thought this was funny:

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls...vd6ro1_500.jpg
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Old 10-22-2011, 12:38 PM   #1224
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Very cute. I love the term militant atheist. Like we're not supposed to air our views while Xtians are everywhere on TV etc. giving us theirs.
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:31 PM   #1225
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I get a kick out of people who start off telling you what atheists "believe."

Um, no, it's a lack of belief. There is no unifying atheist "belief."

It'll probably take awhile for people to realize how many good people they know that are atheists.
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Old 11-02-2011, 07:18 PM   #1226
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I had to share this story with somebody, so here goes.

I took my youngest child to the grocery store a few days ago. He recently turned 2 and is quite the handsome little man (and knows this). I had just buckled him into the cart when a very pleasant-looking older woman walked by us. She stopped and exclaimed over him for a minute before turning to me and saying, "Don't you wonder how anyone can look at such a child and not believe in God?"

Seriously, I thought I was being punked. I knew she meant well (grumble grumble) and struggled to answer with something that wouldn't offend her or me. She said a few more things in the same vein before I managed to thank her. We both went in our separate directions and had no more interaction in the store.

It was all just really weird.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:15 PM   #1227
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I had to share this story with somebody, so here goes.

I took my youngest child to the grocery store a few days ago. He recently turned 2 and is quite the handsome little man (and knows this). I had just buckled him into the cart when a very pleasant-looking older woman walked by us. She stopped and exclaimed over him for a minute before turning to me and saying, "Don't you wonder how anyone can look at such a child and not believe in God?"

Seriously, I thought I was being punked. I knew she meant well (grumble grumble) and struggled to answer with something that wouldn't offend her or me. She said a few more things in the same vein before I managed to thank her. We both went in our separate directions and had no more interaction in the store.

It was all just really weird.
I actually laughed out loud, sorry. I know people like that. They see God in everything. My sister is one of them. She works at a Catholic school that has nuns still running it, so she talks like a nun. God in the sunset, the leaves, the bunnies, the birds.

I hope she understands (not sure, but I hope) that I also get warm fuzzies when I see these beauties, but without any thought of a God.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:36 PM   #1228
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I had to share this story with somebody, so here goes.

I took my youngest child to the grocery store a few days ago. He recently turned 2 and is quite the handsome little man (and knows this). I had just buckled him into the cart when a very pleasant-looking older woman walked by us. She stopped and exclaimed over him for a minute before turning to me and saying, "Don't you wonder how anyone can look at such a child and not believe in God?"

Seriously, I thought I was being punked. I knew she meant well (grumble grumble) and struggled to answer with something that wouldn't offend her or me. She said a few more things in the same vein before I managed to thank her. We both went in our separate directions and had no more interaction in the store.

It was all just really weird.
Weird yes. And creepy. But there's a compliment in there.
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Old 11-03-2011, 12:27 AM   #1229
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I had to share this story with somebody, so here goes.

I took my youngest child to the grocery store a few days ago. He recently turned 2 and is quite the handsome little man (and knows this). I had just buckled him into the cart when a very pleasant-looking older woman walked by us. She stopped and exclaimed over him for a minute before turning to me and saying, "Don't you wonder how anyone can look at such a child and not believe in God?"

Seriously, I thought I was being punked. I knew she meant well (grumble grumble) and struggled to answer with something that wouldn't offend her or me. She said a few more things in the same vein before I managed to thank her. We both went in our separate directions and had no more interaction in the store.

It was all just really weird.
I find that really scary. When I hear about people saying things like that, my heart just sinks. No one in New Zealand would be so presumptious.
Stephanie
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Old 11-03-2011, 12:15 PM   #1230
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I had to share this story with somebody, so here goes.

I took my youngest child to the grocery store a few days ago. He recently turned 2 and is quite the handsome little man (and knows this). I had just buckled him into the cart when a very pleasant-looking older woman walked by us. She stopped and exclaimed over him for a minute before turning to me and saying, "Don't you wonder how anyone can look at such a child and not believe in God?"

It was all just really weird.
I think it could also be a form of evanglizing or witnessing. Isn't goat wonderful for creating this beautiful child?

I'm sure your child is very beautiful in the way we conventionally attribute beauty. I wonder what this woman says if a child has Downes Syndrome or CP. Does she share the wonder of goat then?

What do you say? Thanks but I thank my husbands and my genes for giving us a beautiful child? Or We were just lucky, god really didn't have anything to do with it? I can think of a few more confrontational responses but I decided not to go there

Come on people! Let's give her some viable alternatives!
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:17 PM   #1231
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"Give me a mirror and I'll give you an example of one"

"I look in the mirror every day and I don't ". Then again, you can only use that if you're as cute as a toddler. :P
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:31 PM   #1232
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I think if that happened to me, I would cringe a little (a slight ducking of the head into the slightly hunched shoulders) while grinning in a most embarrassed and apologetic manner, and then in the most apologetic, friendly, and non-confrontational voice I would say "ohhhhh, actually....I ....uh, ....I DON'T believe in God - sorryyyyyyyyy" - my TONE of voice would convey my most sincere desire NOT to offend her - and then quickly afterwards I would add "but THANK YOU for the lovely compliment!" This IS actually how I react in situations where someone assumes I am a Christian, and I do not want to offend them yet want to let them know that their assumption is not accurate. I guess it is a mixture of embarrassment (for the situation) and apology. (not that I'm sorry for my beliefs, just sorry for the misunderstanding)
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:38 AM   #1233
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Tigerlily expressed my sentiments.

It is easy to see god or goodness in beautiful children. It is a common theme. In many stories, the "fair" people are good and the "ugly" people are bad.

I guess the devil (sin) makes us ugly. Isn't it the fault of "the fall" that we age?
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:42 AM   #1234
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See I'm a horrible horrible HORRIBLE person and while I'd say nothing and sort of cringe in my head I'd be thinking really loudly "Well there was a lot of 'Oh god oh god oh god' in the bedroom but I don't think he was there"
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:54 PM   #1235
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See I'm a horrible horrible HORRIBLE person and while I'd say nothing and sort of cringe in my head I'd be thinking really loudly "Well there was a lot of 'Oh god oh god oh god' in the bedroom but I don't think he was there"
Bahahahaha!!!!
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:09 PM   #1236
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Come on people! Let's give her some viable alternatives!
Yes! Sigh. I wish I could, but I just don't know any! It's a difficult situation. It's easier if the person is being nasty, aggressive and offensive, rather than nice and complimentary and philosophically offensive.

I was recently in a situation that brought out similar feelings for me. Through an unexpected circumstance, I ended up taking a very pleasant drive with a woman who I don't know very well, but I know her because our now-teenage daughters were in the same class at Catholic elementary school (long story why my daughters went to that school). I don't like to come out to these people that I'm agnostic, although if it comes up in conversation I do say that I AM NOT Catholic (I was raised Anabaptist, so Catholic is like the people in the Exorcist, right?). After about 15 minutes of a lovely conversation, she says to me, "all we can do is pray to Marion, and thank her every moment for our great kids."

Okay, even when I was a Protestant, I would have been freakin' out at the "praying to Marion" bit. But my overriding thought was--I'm having a really nice time, I don't want to spoil the moment, so all I said was "uh, .....uhmmmmm. (Change the subject)" while my mind was racing through "***??!!!!"

Really, my logical side would have said "That's utter nonsense on so many levels, but you're a very nice and intelligent person, so I'm not going to get into this, because in 10 minutes I'll get out of this car and may or may not ever see you again." But what good would that have done?

I don't know. What do you do in such a situation?
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:10 PM   #1237
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See I'm a horrible horrible HORRIBLE person and while I'd say nothing and sort of cringe in my head I'd be thinking really loudly "Well there was a lot of 'Oh god oh god oh god' in the bedroom but I don't think he was there"
What's the symbol for the snorty laugh? It's not , or lol . . .
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Old 11-04-2011, 06:17 PM   #1238
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(Change the subject)" while my mind was racing through "***??!!!!"
Oh my. This site edits our self-edits. "***" isn't what I typed. I typed an acronym, one that would be the same as Why The Freckles. That acronym is so ubiquitous, I don't see the original meaning anymore. I feel like when I was in grade 3: I came home from school saying "gosh!" and got into huge trouble because my mom said it was a code word for "god," and therefore I was using the lord's name in vain. I get using the lord's name in vain thing, but that was a stretch in my 8 year old brain. And my 48 year old brain.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:44 PM   #1239
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Tigerlily expressed my sentiments.

It is easy to see god or goodness in beautiful children. It is a common theme. In many stories, the "fair" people are good and the "ugly" people are bad.

I guess the devil (sin) makes us ugly. Isn't it the fault of "the fall" that we age?
Along those lines, isn't it interesting how American Christians usually have Jesus with very white skin and blue eyes?
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:46 PM   #1240
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Oh my. This site edits our self-edits. "***" isn't what I typed. I typed an acronym, one that would be the same as Why The Freckles. That acronym is so ubiquitous, I don't see the original meaning anymore. I feel like when I was in grade 3: I came home from school saying "gosh!" and got into huge trouble because my mom said it was a code word for "god," and therefore I was using the lord's name in vain. I get using the lord's name in vain thing, but that was a stretch in my 8 year old brain. And my 48 year old brain.
Yes it does. You can type "Double U Tee Eff" though.

How about UUTF?
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