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Old 11-10-2010, 06:30 AM   #721
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The story of Noah and the Ark was the one that started me on this path AWAY from Christianity. I was a Sunday School teacher and as I actually read this story in the bible (as opposed to the normal picture book) I was appalled.

Rejecting this story that had been taught to me ALL my life led to relatively quick rejection of the others.

Looking back I am appalled at how long it took me to THINK.

Better late than never.
Now that you mention it -- me too! Maybe if I hadn't been taught that it was literal truth and just some sort of myth used as a metaphor I'd feel differently. The story of the Tower of Babel was another one. Doesn't mesh with how languages developed at all.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:29 PM   #722
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The story of Noah and the Ark was the one that started me on this path AWAY from Christianity. I was a Sunday School teacher and as I actually read this story in the bible (as opposed to the normal picture book) I was appalled.

Rejecting this story that had been taught to me ALL my life led to relatively quick rejection of the others.

Looking back I am appalled at how long it took me to THINK.

Better late than never.
Me three.

I guess when you are completely surrounded with people who believe the same things, you assimilate what the assumptions are.

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Old 11-11-2010, 07:00 AM   #723
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Hi ladies,
Y'all are awesome! Martha came back to the hotel yesterday to find several cards waiting for her. What a wonderful end to the day, and the day where her DS took his first steps since the accident no less.

At this point it's uncertain how long he'll remain in the hosp and where exactly he will go for rehab ... lots of questions, answers seem to trickle in at a maddening slow pace.
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:38 AM   #724
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Hi Jean - thanks for the update on Martha and her son's progress.
Stephanie
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:38 PM   #725
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Hi ladies,
Y'all are awesome! Martha came back to the hotel yesterday to find several cards waiting for her. What a wonderful end to the day, and the day where her DS took his first steps since the accident no less.

At this point it's uncertain how long he'll remain in the hosp and where exactly he will go for rehab ... lots of questions, answers seem to trickle in at a maddening slow pace.
Thanks, Jean!

I'm so glad he's improving.
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:24 AM   #726
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Martha's DS update: Oy! In working so hard to keep this pretty-banged-up-kiddo alive, they only just noticed that his left arm was broken. (thanks to one pretty alert nurse!) Yesterday they took him back into surgery. His BP dropped so he needed to go back to ICU with a ventilator again. Martha just reported that the ventilator's been removed. Poor kid! Poor Martha!
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:26 AM   #727
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Thanks for the update. Wow poor indeed

ANd thanks for the reminder, I need a resend of her address because my in box was full when you sent it the first time
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Old 11-13-2010, 02:41 PM   #728
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Thanks for the update. Glad they finally found the broken arm but not good that he had to be back on a ventilator, but at least it's been removed now.
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Old 11-16-2010, 04:19 AM   #729
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Martha's DS is headed back in the right direction, moving out of ICU, anxious to be on his own two feet (slow it down there cowboy, those feet aren't quite ready to work the way you're used to!). Your cards keep coming in and she really appreciates the love.
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:18 AM   #730
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Martha's DS is headed back in the right direction, moving out of ICU, anxious to be on his own two feet (slow it down there cowboy, those feet aren't quite ready to work the way you're used to!). Your cards keep coming in and she really appreciates the love.
That bolded part ... well...

it reminds me of a Star Trek episode.

Actually, two of them.

Thanks for the update, good news!!!
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Old 11-16-2010, 04:53 PM   #731
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I was home this weekend for my sister's wedding and I was talking to my mom about religion. I had her read God is not Great a month or so ago, and she is telling everyone who will listen about it.

When my dad died in 98, I was still in college and had no money so my sister and her mom paid for my dad's headstone, and did not talk to me about what was going on it. They left the "Sr." off of his name (of which he was extremely proud), and added praying hands, and it really bothered me. I don't go to the cemetary, and no longer see any reason to, but I was saying to my mom that he would not like the praying hands. I said that he and I never talked about religion, and I did not think he was atheist, but I didn't think he liked religion. She said, "Well, religion really let him down." That was a really powerful statement for me, and I just thought I would share.
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Old 11-16-2010, 05:57 PM   #732
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Jeanie, thanks for the update. Glad to hear he is doing better now.
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:34 PM   #733
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I can't recall how I found this thread but I'm glad I did and want to "listen in" on the thought provoking and intellectual posts going forward. I am thankful for my Unitarian church and always enjoy knowing like minded THINKERS!
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:43 PM   #734
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I can't recall how I found this thread but I'm glad I did and want to "listen in" on the thought provoking and intellectual posts going forward. I am thankful for my Unitarian church and always enjoy knowing like minded THINKERS!
Welcome to the thread!!!
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:28 PM   #735
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I was home this weekend for my sister's wedding and I was talking to my mom about religion. I had her read God is not Great a month or so ago, and she is telling everyone who will listen about it.

When my dad died in 98, I was still in college and had no money so my sister and her mom paid for my dad's headstone, and did not talk to me about what was going on it. They left the "Sr." off of his name (of which he was extremely proud), and added praying hands, and it really bothered me. I don't go to the cemetary, and no longer see any reason to, but I was saying to my mom that he would not like the praying hands. I said that he and I never talked about religion, and I did not think he was atheist, but I didn't think he liked religion. She said, "Well, religion really let him down." That was a really powerful statement for me, and I just thought I would share.
Thank you for sharing. We had a really difficult time finding a suitable design for Natalie's grave stone. Way too many "our little angel" options. I haven't been back in years. My five year old is asking lately to go see it.

I'm glad your mom was as honest as she was with you. SO much of the funeral and to do of burial etc is for the surviving family members. I honestly don't get it. I just hope I live long enough that my kids get old enough that I can ask them if they wish to have a place to visit me or not. I want to be scatters into the ocean in Monterey. I'm not sure that's not entirely selfish.

I am sure tho that I'm tired and rambling so I'm headed to bed to watch Amazing Race with my wonderful hubby who today against all his desires went with all of us to get a tree and put it up I'm all decked out for Christmas!
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:50 AM   #736
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My brain is finally clear enough to check in and say hi. Thanks for the cards and well wishes. It is much appreciated Thanks to Jeaniebean for posting for me. She has been an amazing support through all this.

Alex is extremely lucky that the accident was witnessed by a cop, EMT's reached him within minutes and he was taken to this trauma hospital and had the right people to take care of him.

It has been a bumpy road but Alex is doing extremely well in rehab and will probably be released in the next 4-7 days, probably going back in for some outpatient therapy.

It has been a little weird that he's in this Catholic hospital (which plays a few bars of the Brahm's lullabye every time a baby is born, lol - Dads get to push the sound button) people saying they're praying for him and me and "god has a plan for him" type of stuff. The staff were informed that he and I are atheist and the "chaplains" or whatever would come and be supportive without mentioning religion.

Any ways, I still don't get on the computer every day cuz I have to use the one in the hotel which isn't always free. I won't be heading back to WI until the end of next week.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:51 AM   #737
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That bolded part ... well...

it reminds me of a Star Trek episode.

Actually, two of them.

Thanks for the update, good news!!!
Really? Which one's? It will make me smile...
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:53 AM   #738
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I can't recall how I found this thread but I'm glad I did and want to "listen in" on the thought provoking and intellectual posts going forward. I am thankful for my Unitarian church and always enjoy knowing like minded THINKERS!
Welcome! Great group of people here.
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Old 11-22-2010, 09:21 AM   #739
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Really? Which one's? It will make me smile...
Okay, first, the TNG one where Worf gets hurt and chooses to commit ritual suicide but another doctor (not Crusher) tries her "experimental" surgery, and it works and Worf is saved. But when he's trying to learn to walk again.... he stumbles.

Star Trek Ethics

Other one is also TNG where the alien is found, no memory, but has special powers - gives Geordi confidence, heals Miles' shoulder injury, and finally remembers and at the end turns into a being of light. But when they find him, he's near death and Crusher nurses him back to life, and - same deal - he tries to walk and can't quite do it yet.

Star Trek Transfigurations

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Old 11-22-2010, 11:35 AM   #740
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Am I the only one here old enough for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Buy For Me the Rain"?

"Gravestones cheer the living, dear, they're no use to the dead."
No, you're not.

When my DH died unexpectedly six years ago, I thought about how much he 1) hated cemeteries and 2) hated being cold. I had him cremated after we donated whatever organs and tissues could be used. I have a tiny pewter urn with a pinch of his ashes in it that I wear on occasion. (I know -- I thought it was ooky, too, when a friend of mine wore one with her brother's ashes in it. It seems a lot less ooky to me now than it did then.)

Since I don't expect any of us to be resurrected at any time in the future, and I don't think he really had any need for his body any more, I didn't see any need for it to take up a lot of space. I expect my DS will eventually do the same with me.
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:10 PM   #741
This reminds me of a Star Trek episode....
 
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Am I the only one here old enough for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Buy For Me the Rain"?

"Gravestones cheer the living, dear, they're no use to the dead."
I'm old enough, but don't know them well enough.

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Old 11-25-2010, 08:07 AM   #742
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Okay, first, the TNG one where Worf gets hurt and chooses to commit ritual suicide but another doctor (not Crusher) tries her "experimental" surgery, and it works and Worf is saved. But when he's trying to learn to walk again.... he stumbles.

Star Trek Ethics

Other one is also TNG where the alien is found, no memory, but has special powers - gives Geordi confidence, heals Miles' shoulder injury, and finally remembers and at the end turns into a being of light. But when they find him, he's near death and Crusher nurses him back to life, and - same deal - he tries to walk and can't quite do it yet.

Star Trek Transfigurations

Ok. I remember the first one quite well. The 2nd one - is that the one with the "Traveler?"

Alex continues to show improvement. He seems to be feeling better so he is acting more and more like his normal self. He gets out of the hospital on Sunday.
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:15 AM   #743
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Have you found the book readable Wrose? I don't have much of a science background. I found Dawkins latest book rather difficult so I'm not sure I want to tackle Hawkings.

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I started Hawkings book today (The Grand Design). I already wrote down something I like, on page 17.

He's talking about how early man had many gods to explain everything. "But with Thales of Miletus about 2,600 years ago, that began to change. The idea arose that nature follows consistent principles that could be deciphered. And so began the long process of replacing the notion of the reign of gods with the concept of a universe that is governed by laws of nature, and created according to a blueprint we could someday learn to read."
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:43 PM   #744
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Ok. I remember the first one quite well. The 2nd one - is that the one with the "Traveler?"

Alex continues to show improvement. He seems to be feeling better so he is acting more and more like his normal self. He gets out of the hospital on Sunday.
Great news about Alex. Saw Jeanie yesterday and we talked all afternoon!!!!!

No that was not the "Traveler" - just some one-episode being who had amnesia when the Enterprise found him, and Crusher helped me get well....

The "Traveler" was really for Wesley, remember how he came back in Wesley's last episode?
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:45 PM   #745
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Have you found the book readable Wrose? I don't have much of a science background. I found Dawkins latest book rather difficult so I'm not sure I want to tackle Hawkings.
Very readable.

He explains things well enough for me - and I nearly failed physics.

He mentioned philosophers in history, and while I've had philosophy classes, I don't remember studying them in relationship to our knowledge of science at the time. Hawkins does this.

It was amazing for me.

I had to return it, then DD and I decided to buy it, so I need to pick it back up, I was on page 93.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:59 PM   #746
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Alex continues to show improvement. He seems to be feeling better so he is acting more and more like his normal self. He gets out of the hospital on Sunday.
I am so pleased Alex is coming right.
Stephanie
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:04 PM   #747
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Alex continues to show improvement. He seems to be feeling better so he is acting more and more like his normal self. He gets out of the hospital on Sunday.
That's great news, Martha! I'm so happy for you
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:06 PM   #748
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Very readable.

He explains things well enough for me - and I nearly failed physics.

He mentioned philosophers in history, and while I've had philosophy classes, I don't remember studying them in relationship to our knowledge of science at the time. Hawkins does this.
Sounds good - I'll have to get it from the library when I get back. I love authors who bring things into historical perspective, since my education in history was very limited.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:16 PM   #749
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When my DH died unexpectedly six years ago, I thought about how much he 1) hated cemeteries and 2) hated being cold. I had him cremated after we donated whatever organs and tissues could be used. I have a tiny pewter urn with a pinch of his ashes in it that I wear on occasion. (I know -- I thought it was ooky, too, when a friend of mine wore one with her brother's ashes in it. It seems a lot less ooky to me now than it did then.)
I don't think it's ooky, Carol. I had an acquaintance whose 10-yo daughter died a couple weeks after being unexpectedly diagnosed with cancer. The mom was fairly spiritual and felt sad that her daughter hadn't been able to go everywhere and do everything she had wanted. She packaged up the daughter's ashes into little 1" squares of paper and gave them to friends, family, and acquaintances who were willing to sprinkle them in interesting, fun, beautiful, and unusual places. People wrote back to her, telling her all the places her daughter's ashes had been. It was comforting to her to think that her daughter was truly everywhere, that she had become part of the planet. I don't believe there is an afterlife, but it seemed sweet to me, in the same way that keeping a little of your husband's ashes near you seems sweet.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:17 PM   #750
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Sounds good - I'll have to get it from the library when I get back. I love authors who bring things into historical perspective, since my education in history was very limited.
When I rereserved it, after having to return it, I was 102 on the list. But they did have a lot of copies......

That's why I bought it. And everyone else wants to read it.
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Old 11-25-2010, 01:17 PM   #751
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I can't recall how I found this thread but I'm glad I did and want to "listen in" on the thought provoking and intellectual posts going forward. I am thankful for my Unitarian church and always enjoy knowing like minded THINKERS!
Welcome
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:33 PM   #752
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Very readable.

He explains things well enough for me - and I nearly failed physics.

He mentioned philosophers in history, and while I've had philosophy classes, I don't remember studying them in relationship to our knowledge of science at the time. Hawkins does this.

It was amazing for me.

I had to return it, then DD and I decided to buy it, so I need to pick it back up, I was on page 93.
Ok. I'll have to give it a whirl. When I'm back in my right mind.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:36 PM   #753
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Great news about Alex. Saw Jeanie yesterday and we talked all afternoon!!!!!

No that was not the "Traveler" - just some one-episode being who had amnesia when the Enterprise found him, and Crusher helped me get well....

The "Traveler" was really for Wesley, remember how he came back in Wesley's last episode?
I forgot Jeaniebean would be seeing you. That's cool.

Yeah, I remember traveler was the way they got rid of Wesley. I'll have to check out the other thing.
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:43 PM   #754
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No, you're not.

When my DH died unexpectedly six years ago, I thought about how much he 1) hated cemeteries and 2) hated being cold. I had him cremated after we donated whatever organs and tissues could be used. I have a tiny pewter urn with a pinch of his ashes in it that I wear on occasion. (I know -- I thought it was ooky, too, when a friend of mine wore one with her brother's ashes in it. It seems a lot less ooky to me now than it did then.)

Since I don't expect any of us to be resurrected at any time in the future, and I don't think he really had any need for his body any more, I didn't see any need for it to take up a lot of space. I expect my DS will eventually do the same with me.
Remember a hundred + years ago, people made lockets and necklaces with the loved ones hair woven in. Whatever brings you comfort is a good thing. Having said that, I was appalled when my ex-mil kept her husband's ashes on a shelf in the garage for about a year and a half before she could stir herself to go and sprinkle them somewhere. My ex and I both thought it was a little disrespectful But I guess the old man never knew the difference so what the heck?!
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Old 11-25-2010, 06:07 PM   #755
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I forgot Jeaniebean would be seeing you. That's cool.

Yeah, I remember traveler was the way they got rid of Wesley. I'll have to check out the other thing.
Ha ha ha, I love how you say, "got rid of Wesley." We always groaned when the show would get going and it was obviously going to be a Wesley episode.

Interestingly, he's apparently grown up into a fine young man, and has quite a sense of humor. My DD was following his tweets for awhile. Very funny! So I don't dislike him as much as I used to!!
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:46 PM   #756
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Am I the only one here old enough for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Buy For Me the Rain"?

"Gravestones cheer the living, dear, they're no use to the dead."
We won't comment on whether I am old enough--I know Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, but I am not familiar with this song. Anyway, this gave me chills. Of course I am very sappy and get chills a lot .
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:55 PM   #757
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Thank you for sharing. We had a really difficult time finding a suitable design for Natalie's grave stone. Way too many "our little angel" options. I haven't been back in years. My five year old is asking lately to go see it.

I'm glad your mom was as honest as she was with you. SO much of the funeral and to do of burial etc is for the surviving family members. I honestly don't get it. I just hope I live long enough that my kids get old enough that I can ask them if they wish to have a place to visit me or not. I want to be scatters into the ocean in Monterey. I'm not sure that's not entirely selfish.
Without rambling on for pages (as I tend to do) I was in my second year of college when my dad died, and the situation with the headstone, coupled with my moving away from religion, pretty much totally turned me off of cemetaries as places to honor loved ones. Cuturally and historically I find old cemetaries fascinating, but I have no intention to be tied to them as a way to honor dead loved ones.

Instead, to honor my dad I hyphenated my last name when I got married, I look at (and scrapbook ) pictures, and I tell and recall stories. For me, that is a much healthier way to remember and honor, than standing over his decomposing corpse. I found it creepy the day he died, and I still find it creepy.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:58 PM   #758
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Welcome ckhirrill, and so glad to hear the progress, Martha! Keep us posted!
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:09 AM   #759
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Mornin, my AA friends (lol ... sorry, couldn't resist!),
Came across this article. Anyone hear of biocentrism? News to me; an interesting concept to chew on. Thoughts?


Robert Lanza, M.D.: Why Are You Here? A New Theory May Hold the Missing Piece

>snip<

Biocentrism, a new theory of everything, provides the missing piece. Although classical evolution does an excellent job of helping us understand the past, it fails to capture the driving force. Evolution needs to add the observer to the equation. Indeed, Niels Bohr, the great Nobel physicist, said, "When we measure something we are forcing an undetermined, undefined world to assume an experimental value. We are not 'measuring' the world, we are creating it."

>snip<

How did inert, random bits of carbon ever morph into that Japanese guy who always wins the hot-dog-eating contest?

>snip<
The story of evolution reads just like "The Story of the Three Bears," In the nursery tale, a little girl named Goldilocks enters a home occupied by three bears and tries different bowls of porridge; some are too hot, some are too cold. She also tries different chairs and beds, and every time, the third is "just right." For 13.7 billion years we, too, have had chronic good luck. Virtually everything has been "just right."

It's a fascinating story to tell children, but claiming that it's all a "dumb" accident is no more helpful than saying "God did it." Loren Eiseley, the great naturalist, once said that scientists "have not always been able to see that an old theory, given a hairsbreadth twist, might open an entirely new vista to the human reason." The theory of evolution turns out to be the perfect case in hand. Amazingly, it all makes sense if you assume that the Big Bang is the end of the chain of physical causality, not the beginning.

Indeed, according to biocentrism, it's us, the observer, who create space and time (which is the reason you're here now). >snip<
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:44 AM   #760
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Indeed, according to biocentrism, it's us, the observer, who create space and time (which is the reason you're here now). >snip<
Hmm..., I get the feeling that Robert Lanza is trying to find a reason for his own personal existence by making himself (and the rest of us) the center of the universe. And that makes him no more profound or innovative than our Christian friends who use the concept of 'god' for the same reason.

Stephanie
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