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I love how Barker discusses the "probability" theory - when theists say "but what are the odds that this earth would have developed this way" etc. He pointed out that it's like a lottery winner saying (and I quote from his book), "It was highly unlikely that out of the millions of entrants I could have picked the right ticket, therefore someone must have caused me to win."
Indeed while it is highly unlikely for any one person to win, it is not at all unlikely that nobody will win.
I'm really enjoying the book. It's making me exercise my brain.
Reading about skepticism and atheism has brought back Philosphy 101, rhetoric and logical fallacies. Note: some folks do not like being told that their argument is for example an "argument from authority, "It's always been that way", so it's not a valid argument. They don't like hearing, "that's a straw man argument" and not logical when they make a "fact" about science and then pretend to refute (or refudiate?) the argument.
The think that's worrisome is people are getting their science education from their ministers and their history lessons from Glenn Beck!
__________________
Martha
“The world is my country, all mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”- Thomas Paine
Location: Aboard the Enterprise, watching NCIS reruns!
Posts: 95,618
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerlily55
Reading about skepticism and atheism has brought back Philosphy 101, rhetoric and logical fallacies. Note: some folks do not like being told that their argument is for example an "argument from authority, "It's always been that way", so it's not a valid argument. They don't like hearing, "that's a straw man argument" and not logical when they make a "fact" about science and then pretend to refute (or refudiate?) the argument.
The think that's worrisome is people are getting their science education from their ministers and their history lessons from Glenn Beck!
There are a lot of people who are not learning critical thinking skills.
And most never get any education in logic or debate. I still have a bunch of my books from my college philosophy classes - required at a Jesuit University.
But they can tell you who won American Idol every year.
__________________ Kathy Wrose
I am frequently a victim of resistentialism (seemingly spiteful behavior manifested by inanimate objects).
There are a lot of people who are not learning critical thinking skills.
And most never get any education in logic or debate. I still have a bunch of my books from my college philosophy classes - required at a Jesuit University.
But they can tell you who won American Idol every year.
I went to Marquette, another Jesuit institution.
__________________
Martha
“The world is my country, all mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”- Thomas Paine
Oh, I'm *glad* I found this thread. I was beginning to think everyone at SCS was "Bible-believing Xtian"!! Whew!!!
Welcome Rubber Trucker! I felt the same way when I joined SCS. Yes, we have our own little godless corner of the world. Sometimes a stray Xtian wanders in and delivers a blistering comment about how shocked they are that this thread even exists but we just tell them to go away and they usually do.
Hope to see you here often!
__________________
Martha
“The world is my country, all mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”- Thomas Paine
I've got two very emotional kids here adjusting to kindergarten and being "alone" at preschool. I just walked by a mirror and my hair is crazy! I'm exhausted. The kids are pushing all the boundaries today. Sorry, you aren't gonna get sane from me this week LOL
Location: Aboard the Enterprise, watching NCIS reruns!
Posts: 95,618
Quote:
Originally Posted by sewsplendidstamper
I've got two very emotional kids here adjusting to kindergarten and being "alone" at preschool. I just walked by a mirror and my hair is crazy! I'm exhausted. The kids are pushing all the boundaries today. Sorry, you aren't gonna get sane from me this week LOL
Not to mention, it's 106°F in my back yard right now.
__________________ Kathy Wrose
I am frequently a victim of resistentialism (seemingly spiteful behavior manifested by inanimate objects).
Reading about skepticism and atheism has brought back Philosphy 101, rhetoric and logical fallacies. Note: some folks do not like being told that their argument is for example an "argument from authority, "It's always been that way", so it's not a valid argument. They don't like hearing, "that's a straw man argument" and not logical when they make a "fact" about science and then pretend to refute (or refudiate?) the argument.
The think that's worrisome is people are getting their science education from their ministers and their history lessons from Glenn Beck!
Sigh ....your post is like a long, cool drink of water. Thank you. There are way too many people around here (well, not this particular thread, but SST in general) who think a good argument is the one that says what they think using the best words. Ah, no, that can still get you a D in philosophy 101. I see the straw man argument used so often over on CE that I think some people are married to him. This is a nice little corner of the internet . . .
__________________
~ Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food and tyrannize their teachers ~
(attributed to Socrates 470-399 BC)
Sigh ....your post is like a long, cool drink of water. Thank you. There are way too many people around here (well, not this particular thread, but SST in general) who think a good argument is the one that says what they think using the best words. Ah, no, that can still get you a D in philosophy 101. I see the straw man argument used so often over on CE that I think some people are married to him. This is a nice little corner of the internet . . .
Ack! I just realized I should have said "it's always been that way" is an argument from tradition, not from authority. But you knew what I
meant.
__________________
Martha
“The world is my country, all mankind is my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”- Thomas Paine
Ack! I just realized I should have said "it's always been that way" is an argument from tradition, not from authority. But you knew what I
meant.
Tradition, authority -- we see them all misused!
__________________
~ Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food and tyrannize their teachers ~
(attributed to Socrates 470-399 BC)
I never took a philosophy class and I completely regret it. I have, however, learned a tremendous amount by self study and joining in debate type forums (fora?). Anyone can learn to think rationally and critically if they are willing to spend some time at it. It isn't as hard as I thought it would be and is much more fun than most TV reality shows. What gets hard is coming to a social forum and biting my tongue (fingers?) to not point out all the fallacies!
Welcome Rubber Trucker. Jump in! The water's lovely here.
Hello ladies, just poking my head in to say "hi". I've been following this discussion for quite some time now and think it's great! So I finally decided to check in just in case I ever get brave enough to post here, then I won't be a total stranger!
Hi Mrs. Q, pleased to make your acquaintance! Do chip in any time you feel moved to. I am from New Zealand so have a few more daylight hours after the US has gone to sleep!
Stephanie
__________________ To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong. Joseph Chilton Pearce my gallery
Location: Aboard the Enterprise, watching NCIS reruns!
Posts: 95,618
Quote:
Originally Posted by parkes
Hi Mrs. Q, pleased to make your acquaintance! Do chip in any time you feel moved to. I am from New Zealand so have a few more daylight hours after the US has gone to sleep!
Stephanie
Yeah I have to stay up really late to keep up with you!!!
__________________ Kathy Wrose
I am frequently a victim of resistentialism (seemingly spiteful behavior manifested by inanimate objects).
There are a lot of people who are not learning critical thinking skills.
And most never get any education in logic or debate. I still have a bunch of my books from my college philosophy classes - required at a Jesuit University.
But they can tell you who won American Idol every year.
I SO love and appreciate this thread but this is why I don’t post here very often – I don’t make use of ‘critical thinking skills’. I went to private christian school – logic and debate were certainly not encouraged much less taught! I lead w/ my heart on my sleeve and an anger for all the cruelty and suffering in the world. And total frustration w/ anyone who believes in a smug, happy god lounging on a cloud randomly handing out said cruelty and suffering.
But I have no idea who has ever won American Idol!
I will not budge on the fat man in the red suit though. Hey, a girls got to believe in something!
__________________ It's all fun & games until someone gets a paper cut.
Location: Aboard the Enterprise, watching NCIS reruns!
Posts: 95,618
Quote:
Originally Posted by virtualyvonne
I SO love and appreciate this thread but this is why I don’t post here very often – I don’t make use of ‘critical thinking skills’. I went to private christian school – logic and debate were certainly not encouraged much less taught! I lead w/ my heart on my sleeve and an anger for all the cruelty and suffering in the world. And total frustration w/ anyone who believes in a smug, happy god lounging on a cloud randomly handing out said cruelty and suffering.
But I have no idea who has ever won American Idol!
I will not budge on the fat man in the red suit though. Hey, a girls got to believe in something!
Awwww!! Well logic and debate shouldn't be necessary at all times, especially here, but it does come in handy in CE. I never had any debate training. Not my thing.
Let's see, I had a Jesuit University education and while they didn't focus on logic or debate, they did make us think. And sometimes, that's all you need. We all know really shallow people, right? I have some wonderful friends who are just not deep thinkers. And that's okay too.
I think I got my of my logic thinking from watching Star Trek. Never got into the original series, but the ones after it....
So whatever provokes your mind, whatever tickles your brain, is good.
Oh and I have an atheist friend who's extremely well-educated, well traveled, and very smart. She doesn't know much at all about atheist authors or their thoughts or anything. She said she never bothered, she's ALWAYS been an atheist and has no need or urge to read about it or anything. I found that fascinating.
And if you want to believe in that fat guy, ha ha ha, he's all yours. LOL!!! You are so funny.
__________________ Kathy Wrose
I am frequently a victim of resistentialism (seemingly spiteful behavior manifested by inanimate objects).
I dunno anything about philosophy or atheist authors either. I DID read "Sophie's World" (??) just because it had "Sophie" in the title. But I don't remember much of it. My atheist brother has tried to get me interested in his atheist authors and atheist videos on Youtube and such. But really, the Bible is the only thing I needed to read to decide NEVER to worship God even if he's real (I'm technically not an atheist; just an agnostic who doesn't care whether there really is a god or not). That book there got me all bent out of shape and convinced me NEVER again to have anything whatsoever to do with Christianity if I could help it.
I used to debate Christians a lot (and used a bit of logic there) but that was just to work through the self-loathing that had built up during years and years of being a hypocrite (pretending to be a Christian). I used to spend HOURS composing novel-length "response" emails to brave family members who USED to try to convert me. I remember once, a co-worker invited me to her church and I went, BUT I took notes at the sermon, went home, refuted each point the pastor made, and printed out maybe five pages (single-spaced!) worth of arguments against what her pastor said. I tell ya, I wasted SO. MUCH. TIME. <sigh>
Mostly, I'm through with debate. The therapeutic power of debate is no longer necessary for me.
__________________
Faites l'amour, pas la guerre, ...ou alors, faites les deux : mariez vous !
Cards for troops and kids
I used to debate Christians a lot (and used a bit of logic there) but that was just to work through the self-loathing that had built up during years and years of being a hypocrite (pretending to be a Christian). I used to spend HOURS composing novel-length "response" emails to brave family members who USED to try to convert me. I remember once, a co-worker invited me to her church and I went, BUT I took notes at the sermon, went home, refuted each point the pastor made, and printed out maybe five pages (single-spaced!) worth of arguments against what her pastor said. I tell ya, I wasted SO. MUCH. TIME. <sigh>
Mostly, I'm through with debate. The therapeutic power of debate is no longer necessary for me.
Sophie - I hope you're not being too hard on yourself over the so-called wasted time. This was probably a healthy and helpful process that was needed for your development. I think those inner debates can be quite important for figuring out what exactly we believe or don't believe, and why. It sounds like you recognized when you reached the "enough!" point and no longer need visit those thoughts. But I suspect that it was an important activity for your growth. Because you've come through it, you might look back on it as a waste of time, but I'm sure it was important at the time.
Or not--hey, I don't know you, after all. But I recognize that behaviour in myself, and for a while I scolded myself for being "angry." But after more reflection, I realized it wasn't anger so much as passion. And I like passion!
At least we're thinking and not just brain-dead sheep-following-types.
__________________
~ Children nowadays are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food and tyrannize their teachers ~
(attributed to Socrates 470-399 BC)
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