Ethical Question: Casing vs. Copying

[berwyn]

I am a stamper who makes cards to sell on Etsy and at local craft shows. I love to get ideas from the other artists on splitcoast and pinterest. Lately I have seen a lot of people talking about using other artist's work for inspiration (i.e. caseing), but not copying.

I really don't want to be doing anything unethical, but I see so many great ideas that I want to use. How much do I have to change a card to not be "copying" it. For example, is changing the paper and sentiment enough? Can I replicate a layout I like?

Again, I'm trying to make sure I'm not doing something unethical.

Thanks,
Ann

[JBgreendawn]

well, in the featured stamper challenge ( which is pretty much pick something in their gallery to CASE you are asked to change at least 2 things...)
So, since inspiration is everywhere you look I would assume if you are changing the stamps and the paper that makes it more like you are looking at someone's design like it's a sketch... and that would work just fine for the requirements of FS.

[CraftyMel2]

I will throw my 2 cents in, although I suspect there are those will not agree with me on this...I think that if you made it and you want to sell it, knock yourself out. I posted a card in a forum here about 6 months ago and a month later saw (pretty much) the exact same card on Ebay for sale. At first I thought "AGH, they stole my card!" and then I figured, you know what? I could have sold mine on Ebay but chose not to...this person took it and ran with it. The only reason I was upset was because I thought to myself "Gosh, if someone I know sees this for sale on Ebay, they might think that I bought it off of here and stamped my name on the back!" But then I thought some more and figured, eh, oh well...my friends know that I make my own cards so, oh well. I mean, seriously, what would I expect them to do? Write on the back "this card idea was taken from CraftyMel2"? Heck no! I am sure there are others out there who have made similar cards and, who knows, maybe they saw mine and said "Hmph, that was MY card FIRST!". Please.

[Cinnistew]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraftyMel2

I will throw my 2 cents in, although I suspect there are those will not agree with me on this...I think that if you made it and you want to sell it, knock yourself out. I posted a card in a forum here about 6 months ago and a month later saw (pretty much) the exact same card on Ebay for sale. At first I thought "AGH, they stole my card!" and then I figured, you know what? I could have sold mine on Ebay but chose not to...this person took it and ran with it. The only reason I was upset was because I thought to myself "Gosh, if someone I know sees this for sale on Ebay, they might think that I bought it off of here and stamped my name on the back!" But then I thought some more and figured, eh, oh well...my friends know that I make my own cards so, oh well. I mean, seriously, what would I expect them to do? Write on the back "this card idea was taken from CraftyMel2"? Heck no! I am sure there are others out there who have made similar cards and, who knows, maybe they saw mine and said "Hmph, that was MY card FIRST!". Please.

Well said... and I agree!

[berwyn]

Thank you so much for your responses!!

[binkiemonstermom]

I agree!!!! It is paper and ink, not worth getting upset about. There are some that will disagree, and that's fine, I certainly don't want to speak for everyone but for me, I agree, I could sell my cards on ebay or etsy if I wanted to. I look at it this way, if you never want someone to copy your design, don't put it on the internet, don't teach a class, and heck don't give it to anyone else, because they might do either of those!!!!

[sempermom]

heres a source for worry free inspiration, ;)

fix a cup of hot chocolate and save the site in your favs, cause theres alot to see!

Page|Maps

the sketches are an endless supply of ideas!

[cerridwen3301]

this topic always cracks me up - like PP said - it's paper and ink. you paid for your supplies, took the time to make it and took the time to put it on ebay - knock yourself out. i think the few folks who get all up in arms about seeing a similar card as theirs kinda need to get over themselves - it's an ego thing really...

[shazsilverwolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by binkiemonstermom

I agree!!!! It is paper and ink, not worth getting upset about. There are some that will disagree, and that's fine, I certainly don't want to speak for everyone but for me, I agree, I could sell my cards on ebay or etsy if I wanted to. I look at it this way, if you never want someone to copy your design, don't put it on the internet, don't teach a class, and heck don't give it to anyone else, because they might do either of those!!!!

Absolutely agree! If someone copies a design you made, its a compliment, I feel. Even if they use exactly the same products, your work was the inspiration behind it. And really, if you take, for instance, the one layer card, or CAS- there is a certainty that quite a number will look very similar.
I think the only time people would get really upset was if someone copied their design, then entered it for a competition as entirely their own, without credit to the original, or the inspiration behind it. As for copying a layout? There are surely only a finite number of permutations that can develop, and anyway you can't hold copyright on having say, one image stamped on the left, and a sentiment along the bottom, so I don't see why you could not use a layout exactly as you saw it.
Thats my take on it, anyway.

[Rachelrose]

I think there is a difference between "similar" and "the same". Although "similar" is a slippery slope... how much has to be the changed before the card ceases to be similar?

It might bother me if someone exactly copied my card and then sold it. Yes, it would be flattering, but also annoying. Still, what could I do about it?

I don't count using a layout as copying. Like Shaz said, there are only so many possibilities out there. And I agree with you, Shaz, about entering a copied card in a competition. That would really bother me.

[GirlsWannaStamp]

I had a couple of ladies enter their cards they made in my class for the County Fair, and they won. Awesome! I could have entered, but I didn't, so I'm glad they did.

If you really think about it, I kind of won too, because they got the idea from me.

[craftdoc]

My personal rule of thumb is to make at least 3 changes (small or large) to every card that I CASE (layout, color, position of an element, stamp set used, embellishment used etc). I often don't remember where I got the original idea, so hopefully I make enough changes that the card becomes my own. The rare time that I copy a card exactly, I acknowledge the creator on my blog, or clearly state that this was not my original design.

[cat_woman]

I guess I have a different idea of what case-ing is. In my opinion, it is copying. When I say I case something, I mean that I have virtually copied the design - stamps, paper, layout. Now if I've changed a bunch of stuff on my card and it doesn't look like the original card anymore, then I wouldn't say I've cased a design, but rather just used it as inspiration. If I've used something as inspiration, then the resulting design is mine and I'm free to do with it as I please - sell, donate, give away, or toss. That's my opinion on it...

[Rachelrose]

That's what I thought CASEing was, too. Copying. Not basing something on, or being inspired by, or using some of the design elements of.

[BroncoFan60]

I have copied and CASED(changing a couple things) but I only donate or send to friends. I would never post a card on line that I know was someone else's creation or submit it for a magazine or challenge.

[Rachelrose]

I think posting a CASED card is perfectly fine as long as you disclose it and give credit. Even if I do a card that doesn't come close to a CASE but was strongly inspired by something someone else did, I like to put it in my description. It just feels right.

[happigirlcorgi]

This was a great "ethical" question to pose and allow people to think and post about. Being new around these parts, but having papercrafted for years, I know that my "abilities" or "creativity" has grown through classes, seeing what others do, and being challenged. I know I have one card in my gallery that was directly inspired by someone here, and though I didn't remember the name, I did mention that I had been inspired by another stamper.
I guess to me, it's not like my stuff is copyrighted - I mean, I did not design the stamps, the ink pads, or the design paper... so how can I expect others not to create something similar? If I can inspire another, great. I see it as a compliment.
I think there is a definite difference between a direct copy (layout, colors, stamps) and CASE-ing a card in which you take the elements and make them your own.
I am basically an honest person, so if I were to enter a contest or sell a card that I had COPIED, I would try to give that person credit.
All of that being said, I can also understand the frustration of someone being copied after spending their own time designing something fantastic.
I guess it depends on what you want to spend your energy on.

[lylacfey]

I think with CASE'ing you take inspiration from that style. If it's similar because it's your style too. Also a lot of times when we CASE we are learning new styles. Yes, the cards will look the same. I do think CASE & copy fall in the same realm. There are stampers and artists who don't feel comfortable making their own items so they do copy from Stampin Up, etc... I understand that reasoning.

A lot of professional artists also make paper craft creations with their own images. That is where the CASE & Copy for profit starts getting iffy. Some artists will slam you with "I own the copyright" faster than you can blink if you try to make a profit on something you CASE'd from them. Trust me I really understand that.

I have a copyright line out and an artist from a major digital store actually has my work for sale at that digital store. I uncovered it a few months back by accident when I was looking through the store. I found on her blog my paper crafting samples I made for catalogs she CASE'd them.

I was madder than all get out. I actually called my lawyer to file on the witch. I am still mad about it. I have won one copyright lawsuit against a stationery company.

I dropped it because for one my artist line is under my private name to help my family members who have medical problems. I have seen how the paper crafting world can be over copyrights. I really don't want to be entangled in that mess. I would feel really bad to start flame wars over copyrights. Plus, with two of my family members ill yes I am fearful about losing that income over a scandal. It's just a handful of files so what I am losing about $20.00 in income. I am going to sue this lady for thousands. What kind of person would I be if I did that? This woman has small children. I would feel terrible. I let it go.

I know a lot of people would think I am stupid for doing this. This is the first time I have ever publicly said anything about it.

I am usually flattered by CASE'ing. I love seeing girls on YouTube and Flicker make cute things out of my images. As an artist if you are trying to make a profit I think it's nice to write to that artist if you know it's her line and ask if it's ok. I am cool with it, actually. That is why I am so mad at that biddy for taking my designs because she could have asked if she could turn my designs into die cut files. I probably would have let her if she changed a couple of things.

I hope I explained this ok with a flu addled brain. I really don't want to start a flame war or anything.

[shazsilverwolf]

Lylacfey, that pretty much hits the nail on the head, I think. If someone directly wants to copy someone's work/ use someones design- ask! its not difficult, especially these days, with e-mails & so on. Takes minutes. I'm betting most people would say yes, maybe with the proviso of being credited for the design- unless the person stands to make a lot of money out of it, which would change the issue a bit.

[Rachelrose]

Sounds like a nightmare DeeAnn. Sounds like you had to make a hard decision to make the right decision, thinking of the big picture, but I'm sure dealing with the inner feeling of violation was challenging.

[cobby]

As I recall, CASE stands for: Copy And Share Everything. I've also seen people phrase it as Copy And Steal Everything, but that seems a bit harsh.

To go back to the original posters question if you are changing paper, and the sentiment or making other small changes I think you're okay.

This topic comes up a lot and the comments that make the most sense to me are the ones that mention, how can we be SURE we've come up with that layout, that color combo, that "whatever" FIRST??? With the multitude of blogs, magazines, YouTube videos, and lets not forget Pinterest....how do you nail down the VERY FIRST use of your layout or whatever?
As the Bible says, "there is nothing new under the sun". Fashion designers are almost always "reviving" some previous decade or trend, small changes are made...and "voila"! It's all NEW. And they make money on it hand over fist.

Also, as others have said, it's paper and ink. If someone used a design they were taught at your class and won a competition with it; good for them for taking the initiative. However; I do feel it's important not to take another artists stamp or digital designs and using them as if they were your own and making a consistent profit on someone else's work. Independent artists deserve to earn an income too.

[Rachelrose]

I have to say that in the matter of competitions I can't be so sanguine. If you designed a card and then taught others how to make it in a class and someone then entered the card they made in that class in a competition, it would be wrong. A competition is a contest in which entrants are judged on both their ideas and execution of said ideas. If the ideas were not theirs to begin with, the fact that they executed them well doesn't make the card their own. It would, instead, be intellectual theft.

Just because its "just a card" doesn't change that fact. It isn't just a card. It's a design. Which happens to be applied to a card.

Gee. I didn't realize I felt so strongly about this. No offense meant to those who see things otherwise. We all have to do what we think is right.

[cobby]

Rachelrose I do agree with you. But then I wonder about how to go about proving that the design you taught in a class isn't something you saw somewhere else sometime. Not YOU personally.....but because there is SO MUCH SHARING of ideas, classes, etc. as I said in my post I think it's hard to pin down. And, to be perfectly honest, I'm thinking if someone wins say $100, or just a free product I wouldn't care as much but if they won $1000....then my level of "no big deal" becomes "HEY...wait just a darn minute"!! Not very logical I admit. :-)

There would certainly always be a part of me that was "bugged" if this person wins something and passes off the design or idea as their own, never mentioning they saw it demonstrated at a class, or in my gallery. This is why I don't personally try to sell my cards or enter contests. I KNOW I can't claim any new ideas....I surf this site too much, go to classes, buy magazines and catalogs etc. There is always a little bit of "someone else" in all the cards I produce.

It's just a personal choice I make, and a personal choice I would make not to get too bugged if someone would win a county fair contest with a card design I showed them how to make. But as I said, I am certainly no angel, and if the prize were "big enough" I might have to say something. We've all got our own lines...

[lylacfey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angie1974

DeeAnn,


Remind me to never get on your bad side, LOL.

As for what everyone has expressed here, I agree. Good topic for discussion.

Angie, I hope I didn't come off mean. I am going to fret about that now. I know you wrote LOL. I do fret. Sorry to anyone if I did. I have the flu so I probably do sound grumpy.

My Mom calls my temper a happy temper. She says it lasts ten seconds, I am happy again add see both sides of the situation. My Mom holds grudges. She's always amazed I don't. I was really mad because the designs the lady took from me where the same designs the stationery company took from me. Of course I was like You got to be joking. Not again! I had a temper flare. Her work is in a major die cutting design store. One of the big reasons I didn't go after her because I have been in the paper crafting community for a long time now. I know if crafter's buy her files (technically my files, lol) you will all change them up any way. It's not going to be the same design. Personally for me I am cool with that.

Trust me I am not a pushover either. I will fight for what is right to tooth and nail. I just don't think some lady going to make about $20 on some designs is worth hurting her and her families life. I will definitely go after a large corporation if they try it. I know with most individuals it tends to be copy is inspiration. Corporation copy means profit.

I have seen artists get very upset about CASE. They will go after you.That is why I shared my story. I think it's always better to ask.

[Mindykid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerridwen3301

it's an ego thing really...

YES!!!!!!!

[SuG]

I was going to mention that CASE is an acronym for copy and share everything.
I copy, period. It rarely comes out the same because I don't have the same stamp set or the same paper or I like a different color. I don't care if someone copies from me, period. For goodness sake, if I see a white card with a small group of flowers hand colored on the front ( a beautiful clean and simple) and I make a white card with a small group of flowers on the front is that stealing?

[gregzgurl]

It occurs to me that this whole issue is sort of like Angel Policies - some stamp companies will let you sell what you make BY HAND (no mechanical reproduction), some won't. Some artists are okay with you selling the designs they originally came up with, some aren't.

I'll also say that I've seen MANY instances of several people having the same (or at least very similar) ideas at the same time - how do you determine if you truly were the FIRST? There have been several ideas that my friend mentioned to me or that my husband mentioned to me and a year or two later, that idea was being sold somewhere. For example, my husband had the idea for something like "Angie's List" about five years before that showed up, but had no idea how to bring it to fruition, so he did nothing with it. Angie had the same idea, but knew what to do with it, and she's everywhere now!

This DOES NOT apply to someone who has produced actual art (like DeeAnn) and has had it stolen - totally different deal there! Still, I agree with her assessment of how much it is really worth to pursue and prosecute the offender. Things like that need to be considered, for sure.

I had an instance of someone here on SCS not only saving one of my cards to her favorites, but pm-ing me for directions on how to make it (which I told her, including dimensions and step-by-step instructions). Imagine my surprise when it surfaced in her gallery, on her blog, and on the blog of a team she designs for - with no mention of my name at all! I debated saying anything, but decided to email and gently inquire if she could please at least mention where she got the idea. She was very gracious and apologetic about it and said that she honestly couldn't remember who she got the idea from (?), and that she would certainly correct the situation, which she did. Sometimes it really is an honest mistake, sometimes it's just a lack of communication, sometimes it's ignorance of how things should be done, and sometimes it's because they are just selfish and don't care. It's hard to judge which is the true case...

[Rachelrose]

Sue, the case you mention in which your card was completely replicated and displayed without credit is exactly the situation that aggravates me. It doesn't matter what the CASE-er's reasons were - just as it doesn't in the larger venues of copyright infringement and plagiarism in music, literature, etc. The courts wouldn't and don't accept the "Gee, I forgot I got the idea from someone else" excuse.

Again, please be assured that I'm NOT talking about cards that draw from other cards, that use their layouts or a great idea for a focal image or a background or a beautiful handmade flower, etc. We all do that - that's what comes of being in the creative soup. Part of why we are here is to learn and be inspired. And I think the vast majority of us are very aware of when our work is "inspired" by others and when it gets close enough to warrant a nod and a wave to someone else, even if it is not an exact copy.

And I'm not talking about someone who CASEes a card they love and then sends it to someone for their birthday. It's a context thing. Once you upload a card to your gallery, you are proclaiming that it is your work unless you say otherwise. When you enter a card in a competition, you are presenting it as your own work, period.

I'm not talking about "similar". Yes, two people might make similar cards and who can say who thought of it first... and who cares? But what are the chances of two people making exactly the same card? Nil.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with CASEing. (And here I am using the word to mean an exact copy, not a "personal version" of a card like we do with our Featured Stampers.) But if you then put the card out into the public domain, you ought to credit the original designer. Anything less is not ethical.

I keep saying I'm not going to post to this thread anymore lest people start thinking of me as a hothead. I'm not, really and truly! And my greatest fear is that people will think I am being derogatory towards anyone who CASEs a card. Which is not my intent! At all!!!

[cat_woman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachelrose

I have to say that in the matter of competitions I can't be so sanguine. If you designed a card and then taught others how to make it in a class and someone then entered the card they made in that class in a competition, it would be wrong. A competition is a contest in which entrants are judged on both their ideas and execution of said ideas. If the ideas were not theirs to begin with, the fact that they executed them well doesn't make the card their own. It would, instead, be intellectual theft...

I have to disagree with this. I personally think that if you teach someone to do something, then they are free to use that knowledge however they please as well as the results of that knowledge (products). I also used this example in another thread going with this same kind of topic. If you take a sewing class or knitting class and make a clothing item, do you not think you should be able to sell that item. People use sewing patterns and enter contests at fairs for dresses, quilts, etc. all the time. I also have to ask, what about all the people on design teams that are rewarded (some of them quite generously with free products) that use designs that you know they didn't invent themselves (like the easel card, a twisted easel card, or a spring card), but still consider the cards they make as "their design".

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you didn't copy something exactly, then its your design and your decision as to what your want to do with it.

[Rachelrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cat_woman

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you didn't copy something exactly, then its your design and your decision as to what your want to do with it.

I completely agree.

[JaneUK]

The truth is, it would be very difficult to come up with a TRULY unique idea for a card. If you're like most of us who have been making cards for years, going to shows for years, going to classes for years, and reading card-making magazines for years, some of those ideas are just plain stuck in your memory. You canNOT erase your memory every time you sit down to make a card, just so that you won't be making a card similar to the one Chrissie Cardmaker made three years ago. Heck, she probably copied it from someone else herself.

That said, there IS a line crossed when you sit down with a photo of a card and attempt to copy it, piece by piece, then claim that you came up with the design and warn everyone they'd better not copy YOU! I've seen that happen and it's not pretty.......

[jeanstamping2]

From time to time I'll case something. Mostly cause I like the layout of the card or scrapbook page. I'll change things. I really like thinking outside the box.

I've never copied a card or scrapbook page. I just can't do it. It's not in me.




I have know someone who copies everything. She go out and buy the same paper, same stamp, ribbon, brads. And then make the same card.

[shazsilverwolf]

Rachelrose,nobody's going to think you're a hothead, or anti casing! Its a fine line between what we find acceptable, and what we think oversteps the mark, and probably everyones line wiggles a little in different places.( By the way, I did your Distress Ink sampler on my blog yesterday- and I credited you, LOL)
As for not being sure who we got a card idea from, if I make and post a card on my blog, and I know I've seen something similar that inspired me, thats pretty much exactly what I will say in my post, I'll credit the person if I can remember who it was, or find it again, if I can't, I'll add that if the maker recognises it & lets me know, I will put up the credit. Those Triple Stamping cards that popped up recently- I loved the video tutorial that FRENCHIE did, so I made a few, posted, and credited her & her tutorial, as well as a link. But she may well have not been the first to design it, she was just the one who I saw. It all comes down, I think, to the point of 'similar' or 'exact' copy- if someone makes an exact copy of your work, for profit for themselves, I think they've overstepped the mark. If they've taken the basic design, and then put their own twist on it, then thats being inspired by someone, which should receive at least 'thanks for your inspiration' in the card credits. I think its different for lay-outs, thats just a sketch for where to position your pieces- unless they copy every item you put on yours!
Berwyn, I'm really glad you asked this question, I think its given a lot of us something to think carefully about, and refine what we think is ok, and what we should be questioning the acceptability of.Its always good to get other peoples views on a subject, especially one like this that can be tricky.

[snow4197]

Here is what I have always thought about this - if you don't want someone to copy or case your creation then don't post it on the World Wide Web. Just be flattered that someone liked what you made. Who really cares where you got your inspiration from and besides you still made it yourself and the receiver will enjoy that.

[sewnmachine]

Could someone tell me what CASE stands for?

[CraftyMel2]

Copy And Share (Steal) Everything

[gregzgurl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sewnmachine

Could someone tell me what CASE stands for?

I've also seen it as Copy And Selectively Edit...

[barbara32ca]

Here are my thoughts. If you (the global you) copy a card and just change it enough so that nobody notices and then you sell it or enter a contest with it, that is wrong. Your intent was to steal the design and profit from it in some manner.

If you see a card and change a few things to make it your own, you have been inspired by it.

It all goes to intent IMO. Since that is difficult to prove, only the creator knows if it is morally or ethically right or wrong.

Barbara

[lylacfey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by barbara32ca

It all goes to intent IMO. Since that is difficult to prove, only the creator knows if it is morally or ethically right or wrong.

Barbara

Barbara- That is so true. My friends tease me all the time about putting copyrights on my designs because as soon as the designs come out they are all over the Internet to copy. This is so very true. I have seen avatars of my work over here, lol. Disclaimer- I love it and very flattered. I don't put copyrights on my cards. I mean my real art work.

Copyrights on my work are to protect me from big corporations trying to steal my art. Yes, to protect me from other individual artists who might try to make thousands claiming my designs are their own. That's why I was angry with the lady because she had another friends design's in the store too. My friend just came back from Afghanistan. She was in Afghanistan when I found out. She's like "Girl, I just don't care right now." She really did but you all understand what she meant. It's like my friend told me either this woman is a ditz or she is doing it on purpose. One day this woman is going to copy from some other artist who will not be laid back like me & my friend are.

Next year, (crossing fingers and hoping) my work will be in a new video game. I am working on my commissions now. When that new video game comes out there will be copies of my work all over the Internet. I will see polymer clay figurines. I will see DeviantArt fan CASE'ing. I will probably see vinyl recreations, stickers from just individuals who are into the game. I will love it. It will make me smile. Most of these individuals will not know it was an artist who created these characters but to them it's the character that they love. I am guilty of it too loving a character without knowing the artist. My DH is so into Saint's Row and Mass Effect I couldn't tell you who created those characters but I know them all by name.

If a big company decided to use my images to make a line of dolls, t-shirts, gaming skins, etc.... then I am going after them for stealing profit. That's why artists have copyrights and contracts.

My craft creations that I upload like my cards I make on my Cricut, polymer clay creations or beading I want them CASE'd. I hope I can inspire like that.

[Allistamps123]

I have seen cards in the gallery and the crater states they "cased" and provide a link. I have clicked on the link and the two are nothing alike. So theses are more inspirations, not cased.

I always think the person saying they cased and then give credit are so sweet to do so. Their cards really do stand on their tho!

I also like the idea of change three things stated above.

I find when I case mine is always quite different.